Off Topic: Lets Make a Scifi/Fantasy Race, Reptilian

[SaintofM]

Making an none human race is fun to do in fiction, be it reptilian, amphibian, avian, or alien space babes that want to experience this human concept called "love."

That said, lets see how we can think how a race can evolve from standard animal to sapient dominant species.

In this case, Reptilian. No I am not a biologist, just watched too many nature documentaries. That said, I think this is a fun idea so how about we think what we would need for, in this case, a reptile of some sort such as a crocodilian or lizard to become a advanced civilization such as how an ape had a lineage that would lead up to humans.

What traits would fall away, and what parts to quote Ronanke Gaming "Good Enough Nature" where nature doesn't change something to something more advantages (say air tube and feeding tube not as close together in humans) because its good enough and doesn't need to change.

So what are some real animals we can get some inspiration for this new reptilian race on say the Silurians (Doctor WHo), Dragonborn (Dungeouns and Dragons), Angorans (Elder Scrolls), Gorn (Star Trek), Zettaran (Mortal Kombat), Lizardmen (Warhammer) and more.

From what little I understand, I think we need the following: Tool Use, Intelligence, high sociability, being good parents, and language need to happen. However that describes Dolphins and Chimps, so I will need help coming up with an X factor to make them go from this to caveman lizard people to space faring. And for fun why limited it to this? Turtle, Tuataras, snakes, protomamals, and more! Go!



Something social needs to happen. We don't think of most reptiles being social animals, but large number of them can be chummy. Going of Casual Geographics, Alligators give each other piggyback rides just for funsies. A number of snakes don't mind hibernating or hanging out with each other, and more. So in part, a few generations more of this in a more advance direction might help them out. Komodo Dragons even have a hiarchey based on who's the biggest.

Many already communicate well enough. While a large amount of human communication is done with the face (we have almost 40 muscles for expressing emotions alone) other animals have other means, such as infrasound, ear and tail movements and more. In the case of Crocodilians, the grumbling growls they make, many at a pitch we humans can't hear, help in this regard. You can see this in mating season when the males will make their infrasound calls to impress potential mates, making the water dance on their backs from it alone. I can see also a Chamelian's use of color changing. While many for the longest time thought it was for camouflage, it turns out its a form of communication and indicating they are feeling this or that way. And of course various ways many try to one up each other to attract the opposite sex (Alligators singing Green Anoles red throat pouches).

Parenthood...could use some work. Most abanon their eggs or live births soon after laying and hiding or burying the eggs. A number will even eat their young if given a chance. Most are not the parent of the year material, but there are exceptions. Crocadilians such as crocodiles and alligators will have mothers protect their nest, help break open the eggs when the mother hears her babies calling, and even gently carry their young to the water. There unless something horificly goes wrong will try to protect them from predators such as birds and other crocodiles (that may include their own father). Male Gharials, the crocks with the long narrow snout and big nose, buck this trend and can be just as nurturing and protective of the babies as the mother (with a world famous photo of one dad giving a 100 of his babies a piggy back ride).

Shinglaback Skinks from Australia, another animal that is one of the few not trying to kill you from the land down under, has a unique armored look and a short stubby tail. They will stay close to their mother for over half a year, and when they do move out of the basement have a territory that is close to hers.

Pythons famously wrap around their eggs and even shiver to keep them warm.

A combination of this, as well as longer nurturing periods might be needed to in a long run.



Intelligence is simple enough. Many are already pretty smart. Alligators and crocodiles have a small brain to body size ratio, yet can learn tricks, have favorite humans, and even recognize their names. They also learn and a number of people have been killed because they didn't realize one of the swamp puppies was studying them. Others such as monitor lizards and tegus have been shown to pass several tests and challenges of memory and learning. I have seen a box turtle jump off a ledge in its encloser right itself, and then keep doing it because of the fun factor. Same with blowing bubbles when I let it have a soak. Other reptiles are also known to have a personality, favorite human, be affectionate, and do ticks. SO why not?

Finaly tool use. Be it simple such as a rock or a twig to get what they want, the ability to make and use tools is a sign of intelligence for many humans when looking at other animals be they birds, primates, dolphins (they will use sponges to get some spikier foods) and more. That said this isn't the only thing, there is not a race of super advance sea otters for instance running the planet (and now I want to see that in a story), but tool use and are ability to make use of it in interesting ways allowed humans to rise above the rest of the animal kingdom and dominate the planet (that and the ability to thermo regulate better and run prey down by exhausting them).

The next question would be how do they view things? Will it be different from how we do it, or will there be similarities? We are far from a monoculture though we have several similarities that span time and location, so why would they? Thoughts, ideas, and how do you think they would work?

[Demarquis]

If you want to stick to earth-life, I'm of the opinion that no current reptile would plausibly evolve advanced social intelligence. You pretty much have to go back to the dinosaurs for that. Troodon is the most likely candidate, and there's even a scholarly article, by an expert in the field, speculating on it: https://tspace.library.utoronto.ca/bits ... 0-0172.pdf

You'll find the pictures very interesting.

[Arioch]

One of the first rules of (realistic) creature design has to be: long downward-hanging tails and upright bipedal stance don't go together. The whole point of a long tail in a biped is to counterbalance a forward-leaning body. A creature that developed humanlike upright stance would rapidly lose the tail, because it's not only useless but interferes with leg motion. At best you'd have a stubby vestigial tail... or maybe something (perhaps for display) that projected out and up, I guess.

If you want to stick to earth-life, I'm of the opinion that no current reptile would plausibly evolve advanced social intelligence. You pretty much have to go back to the dinosaurs for that. Troodon is the most likely candidate, and there's even a scholarly article, by an expert in the field, speculating on it: https://tspace.library.utoronto.ca/bits ... 0-0172.pdf

You'll find the pictures very interesting.

That famous "dinosaur-man" was much publicized at the time. The skull looks like it has some real science behind it, but it's grafted onto an entirely human body... very lazy, it seems to me. The human upright stance and square shoulders are a specific to an arboreal creature that adapted to life on the ground... it doesn't make sense that a ground dwelling theropod would develop the same body plan. It would develop its arms and hands, certainly, but I don't see any need for it to change its stance and lose its tail, or change from standing on its toes to walking on its heels like we do. I can't think of anything a civilized creature needs to do that can't be done just as well from a theropod's posture. I'm guessing either the researchers were lazy, or else they were deliberately trying to grab media attention with a very humanlike image. If the intent was the latter, I guess it succeeded.

[SaintofM]

Whose to say our posture needs to be the only one that works? A gorilla like stance might be of use (thinking Grunts from Halo when they walk).

I agree most reptiles on earth wouldn't fit the bill. There is a reason many haven't changed much if at all since the days of the dinosaurs.

Evalution is a bunch of happy accents that happen to improve on a species. When enough of these happy accidents cause enough noticeable change, we get a species, but depending on who you talk to at what point there they are completely knew or different changes (wolves and Dogs can still interbred successfully but there are major and minor differences between even the largest of dog breeds and smallest of wolf specifies). However, as a rule is something doesn't have to change it probably won't. We still have some aspects of our organs similar to quadrupedal animals, tonsils are appendix are largely unleaded, and we still have a vestigial tail that in some rare cases is more than just a tailbone. Whales and dolphins still have finger bones.

Unless removing or changing it would help it fill a nitch (however you spell this word) or survive better, it won't change. Something has worked for them not to.

Another aspect that might be fun is the number that do the virgin births or Parthenogenesis found in a number of reptiles such as Komodo dragons. Its not unique to them, insects, fish, even California Condors have had them. However there is usually something that makes them not viable for long term such as coming out all male or something like that.

Then you have ones that could make it work and work it hard! Aphids are eternally Pregent, and the Desert Grassland Whiptail Lizard is an all-female species that needs to perform some female on female love to stimulate ovulation but otherwise lays clones of herself (although they can make hybrids with other Whipetails if they have a male, a boy toy is not needed).

[Moon Moth]

The closest relatives to humans are chimpanzees, bonobos, gorillas, and orangutans, roughly in that order. Why did humans develop bipedalism and an upright posture? Is there some connection to our greater intelligence, or is it random chance? If we can figure that out, then we might be able to determine whether the same evolutionary pressures would apply to sapient reptiles.

My guess is that the main pressure is from carrying things, especially in hands, but also on backs or heads. When it comes to carrying heavy weights in hands, a non-upright biped would have to shift to a more upright posture, to keep their new centre of mass over their two feet. A dinosaur-style tail would have mass to balance out the normal body weight, but not anything extra. A spear or javelin might not weigh too much, and could be carried so as to preserve a normal posture. And I suppose that if their young hatch from eggs, they won't go through a phase where they're helpless and need to be carried around. But carrying heavy objects would almost require an upright posture, to keep the weight as close to the centre of mass as possible. We're not completely adapted to bipedalism ourselves, so it's clearly a slow process.

And there's also that pesky height=status thing that we have in our psychology. I don't know when we first got that; it might simply be an outgrowth of size=status. But having a more upright posture seems like a great way to hack it. (Even in modern times, I had a friend who always slouched, but looked a lot better when he worked on his posture for a while.)

In terms of 6-limbed fantasy species design, centaurs seem like they could work, since anything carried in the hands would be directly over a pair of legs. And Edgar Rice Burroughs' green Martians could also work, since they have 6 limbs but can alternate between bipedal and quadripedal modes, with 4 or 2 arms respectively. Umiak are described as having a "centaur-like" stance, but the body plan we see makes it seem like the torso is capable of being straight, with 6 "legs" and no "arms". Which would be a cool bit of evolutionary history, if they started out using their front pair of limbs as manipulators, and then gradually evolved to bend their torso upright in front of their second pair of limbs.

Perhaps a more theropod-like posture could work, if the tail were slightly different? If the tail were more flexible, and either prehensile or had a weighted end, then it could either hold some weight itself, or extend to counterbalance weight carried in the hands.

[Arioch]

The obvious advantage of bipedalism is that it frees your forelimbs to become dedicated manipulators. But my point is that theropods were already bipedal; their forelimbs were already completely specialized and not used for locomotion. In some cases (T.Rex) they were becoming almost vestigial. So there was no need for a theropod to lose its tail and walk upright in order to develop its forelimbs into tool-using hands.

[SaintofM]

@Moon Moth: I believe the main theory as to why we went from largely quadruped to bipedal was to get a better look over the tall grasses to look around (kinda like meerkats) and as Darwinian calculus progressed traits that would allow for this to be permanent developed and we would have the bases for early Hominids. Other great apes can go on their hind legs for a little big, there is even some video of a Gorrilla Dad in a zoo that uses this to grab the newest baby in the troop while the Mom is not looking so he can run off to have daddy son/daughter time. But we are the only ones that do this as a predominant thing.

I would also wonder how the egg thing would work. The problem with eggs is they need protection. Besides incubation, reptiles burry their eggs in the ground or piles of plant matter to hide them as plenty of animals would love a nice omelet. Hatchlings by and large can fend for themselves when it comes to food and shelter but are also snack size for most other animals. I would be interested to see what they do for protection for the children as they instinctualy be over protective. "Goodnight Jr 1 through 14." Says the mother before turning on the trip laser activated minigun.

@Aroch: I thought the same thing, but here is the thing with the T-Rex Line: they all had dinky arms. Even their earliest known ones had tiny arms. Despite their pitiful size compared to an animal that size, they aslo had incredible holding and carrying strength, so some paleontologists think it might have something to do with mating (like holding on to the mate). My personal favorite was the discovery carnatours has ball joints in their dinky arms, and a new theory is they waved them in a mating dance (Apple TV apparently used this in a dino program, they used this in one of the adds, funniest thing). 

[Arioch]

Yeah, it wouldn't have been T.Rex, but perhaps one of the smaller theropods. I think that tool-using intelligence is the path of the generalist scrounger, not the apex predator.

[Demarquis]

I think I read somewhere that the point of the upright bipedal stance is that it conserves energy such that we became marathon runners/walkers, about to run down any prey we targeted. Or at least that "run them till they drop" is one of the common hunting strategies among indigenous people.

I don't think the evolutionary "purpose" of bipedalism can be holding tools, because you can't hold tools like that until after you develop bipedalism. There has to be an initial advantage, something that confers reproductive fitness will just a little bit of bipedal capability.

The fully upright, squared shoulder stance of ancient humans is surely an adaptation to the open savanna by an already bipedal creature. If Troodon evolved for a forested environment, then one need only postulate that one branch survived the extinction event and found itself in more open terrain.

[Arioch]

The fully upright, squared shoulder stance of ancient humans is surely an adaptation to the open savanna by an already bipedal creature. If Troodon evolved for a forested environment, then one need only postulate that one branch survived the extinction event and found itself in more open terrain.

The problem here is that there was no such existing adaptation in theropod dinosaurs.

[Demarquis]

Of course there wasn't, otherwise very likely we wouldn't be here. But the OP is asking for speculative origins for an intelligent, civilized reptilian race.

[bunnyboy]

For intelligent race, the most important is transfer of knowledge. This can be done by imitation, "opportunity training", like bringing half dead prey to predator and finally by language. These do favor quality of descendants instead of quantity, so it is likely that the cultured alien have small number of children. For egg laying specie, having need to build safe nest for children as need to guard duty against predators could develope brain for tool use and social order.

Let imagine "cavemen" version of intelligent reptiles. They have some sound based communication, so they can alert each other. They have also some ability to manipulate matter. To secure their low number of descendants, I see these options, each leading different path of evolution:
- Living birth. Leads to: families, emotions and care
- Underwater home similar to beavers and rudimentary control of surrounding. Leads to: digging, tool use
- Elevated nests away from water and communal guards. Leads to: Standing on two legs, language

I suggest someone could pick one of those and evolves it further.

Ps. I am writing this at 3 AM, so I might not be on my sharpest.

[Demarquis]

As their tool use evolves, they will become less and less dependent on next fixed nest building behaviors. By the time you get to the neolithic, I imagine a bowl shaped artificial "nest" constructed out of woven fibers, sort of like an upside down human hut.

[bunnyboy]

If you mean as rope, that is big jump forward. Let say that instead of having hole in ground for nest, they start building elevated nests.

This requires or provides following evolutions:
- Upright position to work in front of them.
- Limbs to grab and manipulate things.
- Ability recognize and produce patterns.
- Skill to build attractive nests be weaving sticks, grass or "birch bark".

These leads to:
- Skills to plan good nest and locate good place to live.
- Patterns of communication, both sound and visual.
- Primitive tools.
- Learning from the elders.
- The main movement might became either upright walking or climbing, which might lead to losing the tail within millions of years as a unneeded limb.

When they reach neolithic civilization, they might have human or chimpanzee body proportions. They are able to use fire, tell stories, make tools to produce other things and make clothes to live at not so optimum conditions. And with fire, they can warm their huts and keep the eggs warm even when they are themselves hunting or gathering resources. They live in small villages, and someone stay as firekeeper, so the fires do not spread neither get cold.

[boldilocks]

I don't think I've even posted for several months, but I'm not getting logged out.

[Demarquis]

Maybe you didn't mean it this way, but I just wanted to clarify that organisms cannot evolve features so they can then use them for some function they can't attempt until after they evolve the feature. To take one example, neither humans nor reptilians could have evolved an upright posture so that they could then, after the feature evolved, use their hands for tools. Becoming more upright would had to have conferred some advantage all by itself.

[SaintofM]

Been a while since I took a science class, but my understanding of most evolution is done by mutations. If the mutation is helpful in some way, it allows the species to progress in that direction. In most cases it takes along time. Some we are watching in real time.

TO have a real world example of the other Snow Hares that typically have a white coat of fur during winter are having some problems as the change in coat is due to how much sunlight is around and not the weather (think the rabbit from the Land of Waves Ark in Naruto). This has proven problematic in a day and age where climate change is reducing the amount of snow is around in any time of the year, but the amount of day light is still the same. That said there are some that are turning back into the browns faster that normally come in warmer times of the year, allowing them to better hide in the new climate changes better.

There are 2 other forms of selection besides the natural selection example as above: Sexual and Artificial.

Sexual Selection is the female of the species finds aspects of a male to be drop dead gorgeous and will go for that. The coloration of birds, that are often paired with a dance or song. The song of Humpback Whales. The Antlers of Deer. Strength and Intelligence of Cuttlefish, and so on. So even though this may make them more likely to be made a target of predators (the tail feathers of a peacock) or makes them go through much needed resources faster and yearly (Deer) the females like this so keep this going.

The final is Artificial Selecton or Manmade. Normally this is breeding, such as Corn going from something that looked like any other grass to what we know and love today, and the vast amount of dog breeds we have today. Or how the Aurock became the modern cows.

It also means human involved pushes to one direction or another in the wild. Elephants with smaller tusks due to poachers killing ones with bigger ones. Due a sea battle in one area of Japan, crab fishermen traditionally threw back ones that look like a samurai mask. Thus we have alot of crabs that look like samurai masks. The wild hare example might also be one such thing given what we are doing to the environment.

Now that we've had Evalution taught by a Mormon, lets move on.

How many would you think might have a venomous bite? Monitor lizards we are finding out have one, to the point we are changing out views of the killer app of the Komodo dragon; previous wisdom said it had a septic tank of a mouth and the bacteria within was the killer, and while that might help it has the same amount of bacteria in other predatory animals, and even humans (that doesn't help its case, I know). However, the use of MRI's found venom glands in its jaws and it uses its bite and teeth to get it in prey in the same way as a Guila Monster, the more famous venomous lizard and for a while what we thought its family being the only ones.

Some proto mammals we thought to have them as well.

How would this evolve as well if they have them? Would it help with dealing with prey (Komodo Dragons) or predators (Guila Monster)? If the later, would a pair of specialized fangs that spray like a spitting cobra be available?

On an area that we can generally agree won't be there are prominent mammaries. Unless its protomammal (Reptiles that had mammalian traits such as fur and may even had milk) but that may not be the case either. I can see these ancient form of reptile having something similar to Platypus were instead of a specialized organ, its a sweat gland. That said, a nipple may be formed, but would it be at the level of humans? And if so, would it be limited to when they were nursing as is the case of many animals instead of all the time as it is with human females.

[Moon Moth]

Maybe you didn't mean it this way, but I just wanted to clarify that organisms cannot evolve features so they can then use them for some function they can't attempt until after they evolve the feature. To take one example, neither humans nor reptilians could have evolved an upright posture so that they could then, after the feature evolved, use their hands for tools. Becoming more upright would had to have conferred some advantage all by itself.

What I'd been thinking was, chimpanzees and bonobos have fairly flexible hands, and can stand and toddle around on 2 legs for at least a short amount of time. If they got smart enough to make and use tools, not just on a small scale, but on a scale that transforms their society, then carrying those tools around would become very useful. They could rig up packs for 4-limbed travel, or carry them in one hand and lope along on 3 limbs. And eventually, I assume that they'd tip over into bipedalism, and then start evolving adaptations for that.

It's not just tools, it's useful to carry rocks, wood, food, and other stuff, especially if they're starting to build structures and transform their environment. And of course, carrying babies next to mammary glands is very important for mammals, but probably not so much for reptiles. (Unless they have helpless infants, or have functional breasts for some reason.) I'm not doing teleological reasoning, or getting Lamarckian, just suggesting that there's a feedback loop of bipedalism and effectiveness, and the more bipedal they get, the more effective they become, which increases reproductive fitness, bit by bit, generation by generation.

[Demarquis]

Unfortunately, the evidence indicates that bipedalism began evolving millions of years before the earliest evidence of tool use (about 3.3 million years ago). See here: https://evolution-outreach.biomedcentra ... 010-0257-6 Of course, we might have started using wooden tools long before developing stone ones, and the remains of those tools may not have survived. No one knows for sure why our ancestors first became bipedal.

[bunnyboy]

Oldest Sophisticated tool that is Found. There is likely older tools, that have not been shaped or prepared for tool use. Just regular stick and stones that are thrown away after use.

And about evolutions, I did simplified the progress a lot, in my earlier posts. Random mutations is one thing, another is timing of the gene activation during development, which in my knowledge we know very little. So, when either code or timing changes, it does not only make the next generations better on something. When change happens, if it benefits the individual, it also benefits the change by chance of next generation. Then tiny calibrations occurs with each generation. In some point, the behavior of individuals happens, when they learn how they can use their evolved abilities better. Or they have to change their behavior from external reasons (change of climate, predators, etc), which might change how they genes are calibrated for next generations.

One typical example of the genetic calibration is that if you gain weight easily, it is likely that your grandmother suffered greatly from hunger.

Most of this I learned document over decade ago. One of the things it mentioned that research of next generation of children born after 9.11 would teach lot of new about evolution. So, this could be all old.