Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

[Bamax]

Hi Arioch... long time no talkie, but nonetheless I had a question.

If Outsider was ever made into a TV series or live action, how would you want the Loroi to look?

What I mean is.. would they have the full rainbow spectrum (ROYGBIV) of colors for hair plus human ones?

I presume Loroi can have red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo, violet, and all the normal human hair colors as well.

Which is a compensation for lacking as much variety in skin color (whitish gray like Tempo to deep blue and anything inbetween those).

A cartoon series you could easily make look like the comic. Live action though would not fully translate unless you through CGI visually effected Loroi actors eyes (Loroi eyes are a bit wider and the irises are a bit bigger as well.

I do not see actors wanting to go through the pain cosplayers go through, especially when unlike cosplayers they have to stay in costume far longer. So it's either CGI or just paint the skin and either dye hair or get a wig. Eye contacts are easy too, but that's as far as it goes.

Main Questions: Am I correct in my assumptions about Loroi hair color types that exist?

A question for Outsider fans: If Outsider were a TV series how would want it to be as far as the style of animation?

My opinion: Anyone that is old enough to remember the nineties X-men cartoons (yes we millenials are getting old) would probably really enjoy X-men 97 if they enjoyed the original. The animation style is realistic and I love the subtle facial expressions that say so much without characters saying a word.

I also like Invincible's animation style as it is also realistic. Even though the gore can be excessive at times.

Finally what kind of content rating would you want for an Outsider cartoon?

If X-men 97 and Invincible proved anything it is that there is a market for more mature themed cartoons. Cartoons are not just for kids anymore.

Question to Arioch... what level of gore would you want if any in an Outsider cartoon?

More of a PG-13 rating (X-men 97)? Or paint the walls red (and I don't mean paint unfortunately) insanity such as shown in Invincible? Or rather in the case of Loroi... it's actually paint the walls blue.

[Arioch]

Hi Arioch... long time no talkie, but nonetheless I had a question.

If Outsider was ever made into a TV series or live action, how would you want the Loroi to look?

What I mean is.. would they have the full rainbow spectrum (ROYGBIV) of colors for hair plus human ones?

I presume Loroi can have red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo, violet, and all the normal human hair colors as well.

Which is a compensation for lacking as much variety in skin color (whitish gray like Tempo to deep blue and anything inbetween those).

A cartoon series you could easily make look like the comic. Live action though would not fully translate unless you through CGI visually effected Loroi actors eyes (Loroi eyes are a bit wider and the irises are a bit bigger as well.

I do not see actors wanting to go through the pain cosplayers go through, especially when unlike cosplayers they have to stay in costume far longer. So it's either CGI or just paint the skin and either dye hair or get a wig. Eye contacts are easy too, but that's as far as it goes.

A live action show would need to have a separate visual design than the comic or an animated series would. What this live action visual design would look like would depend on a lot of real-world factors, such as who was running the show, what the budget was, who the costume and mechanical designers were, etc.. In a vacuum, I would prefer a brighter and more colorful space opera type production design, but I can see how a darker and more realistic design could work also, and in a real-world scenario, this almost certainly wouldn't be up to me. How colorful hair and uniforms get would depend on these production design choices.

Making physical Loroi uniforms that are practical enough for a production yet keep the original aesthetic without looking ridiculous would be a very challenging task.

How blue skin would be handled would be an important question... I don't think blue skin makeup ever looks real, but badly done CGI can look worse. (IMO The makeup on Chiana and Zhaan in Farscape looked acceptable not because it looked real, but rather because of the stylized production design of the show -- human characters shared the screen with literal muppets.) If it were up to me, I would do screen tests exploring makeup, CGI and whatever combination the production designers had in mind, and see which one works best.

Beyond potential skin color effects, I don't think it would be a good idea to otherwise modify the actors with CGI. Loroi eyes aren't meant to be any larger than the human norm; the proportions of Loroi in the comic are mainly a stylistic choice rather than an attempt at stark realism (Alex's proportions aren't accurate to real humans either). And skin color aside, practical makeup elf ears work fine.

Question to Arioch... what level of gore would you want if any in an Outsider cartoon?

More of a PG-13 rating (X-men 97)? Or paint the walls red (and I don't mean paint unfortunately) insanity such as shown in Invincible? Or rather in the case of Loroi... it's actually paint the walls blue.

Again, this would be a design choice for the producers and production designers primarily. My preference is that violence need to have some visual impact, but there aren't very many scenes in my script that would benefit from outright gore, and the ones that do involve Loroi (blue) or Umiak (black) blood, so the same rules don't really apply. Splattering a lot of blue blood everywhere might come across as comical rather than grisly.

[Bamax]

Hi Arioch... long time no talkie, but nonetheless I had a question.

If Outsider was ever made into a TV series or live action, how would you want the Loroi to look?

What I mean is.. would they have the full rainbow spectrum (ROYGBIV) of colors for hair plus human ones?

I presume Loroi can have red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo, violet, and all the normal human hair colors as well.

Which is a compensation for lacking as much variety in skin color (whitish gray like Tempo to deep blue and anything inbetween those).

A cartoon series you could easily make look like the comic. Live action though would not fully translate unless you through CGI visually effected Loroi actors eyes (Loroi eyes are a bit wider and the irises are a bit bigger as well.

I do not see actors wanting to go through the pain cosplayers go through, especially when unlike cosplayers they have to stay in costume far longer. So it's either CGI or just paint the skin and either dye hair or get a wig. Eye contacts are easy too, but that's as far as it goes.

A live action show would need to have a separate visual design than the comic or an animated series would. What this live action visual design would look like would depend on a lot of real-world factors, such as who was running the show, what the budget was, who the costume and mechanical designers were, etc.. In a vacuum, I would prefer a brighter and more colorful space opera type production design, but I can see how a darker and more realistic design could work also, and in a real-world scenario, this almost certainly wouldn't be up to me. How colorful hair and uniforms get would depend on these production design choices.

Making physical Loroi uniforms that are practical enough for a production yet keep the original aesthetic without looking ridiculous would be a very challenging task.

How blue skin would be handled would be an important question... I don't think blue skin makeup ever looks real, but badly done CGI can look worse. (IMO The makeup on Chiana and Zhaan in Farscape looked acceptable not because it looked real, but rather because of the stylized production design of the show -- human characters shared the screen with literal muppets.) If it were up to me, I would do screen tests exploring makeup, CGI and whatever combination the production designers had in mind, and see which one works best.

Beyond potential skin color effects, I don't think it would be a good idea to otherwise modify the actors with CGI. Loroi eyes aren't meant to be any larger than the human norm; the proportions of Loroi in the comic are mainly a stylistic choice rather than an attempt at start realism (Alex's proportions are accurate to real humans either). And skin color aside, practical makeup elf ears work fine.

Question to Arioch... what level of gore would you want if any in an Outsider cartoon?

More of a PG-13 rating (X-men 97)? Or paint the walls red (and I don't mean paint unfortunately) insanity such as shown in Invincible? Or rather in the case of Loroi... it's actually paint the walls blue.

Again, this would be a design choice for the producers and production designers primarily. My preference is that violence need to have some visual impact, but there aren't very many scenes in my script that would benefit from outright gore, and the ones that do involve Loroi (blue) or Umiak (black) blood, so the same rules don't really apply. Splattering a lot of blue blood everywhere might come across as comical rather than grisly.

Whaaat? I thought the Loroi eye design was a subtle uncanny valley artistic way of indicating that they ARE'NT human even though they look like it.

I could not help but notice the difference between the human crew eyes (before they were blown up) and the Loroi. And the Loroi eyes are as different as I described.

I personally love that detail, it's subtle but it's there. So much that anyone could tell who is and is not Loroi just by looking at their eyes.

A human could put on blue face paint and elf ears but their lack of big beautiful slighter wider eyes will give them away.

But then again I tend to love sticking to source material if I like it, but understand and agree that for live action you must make concessions.

With the power of AI you may not even need to paint faces anymore... adding a different color to an actor's face seems well within AI abilities.

Still would need to edit the sloppiness of AI though, as anyone who has seen AI art knows there are numerous tiny errors in the details.

I too think violence should have a point. I guess the main lesson both shows like Invincible and The Boys teach is that superpowers have consequences and it would be messy and not like the saturday morning cartoons we were raised on.

It's just a more realistic take on actions having consequences.... using superpowers.

[Hālian]

(snip)

(snip)

Whaaat? I thought the Loroi eye design was a subtle uncanny valley artistic way of indicating that they ARE'NT human even though they look like it.

Conversely, I never noticed, and thought it was just stylization lol

[Urist]

Do loroi males have Adam's apples? In the one bit of easily-accessible art that shows one of them with his neck in profile, there's a few lines that might be such a bump of cartilage... or might just be hair.

[Arioch]

Do loroi males have Adam's apples? In the one bit of easily-accessible art that shows one of them with his neck in profile, there's a few lines that might be such a bump of cartilage... or might just be hair.

Loroi males don't have the enlarged larynx that is characteristic of human males, and correspondingly they don't have the deeper voice that human males do.

[SaintofM]

Do loroi males have Adam's apples? In the one bit of easily-accessible art that shows one of them with his neck in profile, there's a few lines that might be such a bump of cartilage... or might just be hair.

Loroi males don't have the enlarged larynx that is characteristic of human males, and correspondingly they don't have the deeper voice that human males do.

So would they sound like a teenager that hasn't had a voice crack yet, or the vampire party member in Boulder's Gate 3?

[Arioch]

Do loroi males have Adam's apples? In the one bit of easily-accessible art that shows one of them with his neck in profile, there's a few lines that might be such a bump of cartilage... or might just be hair.

Loroi males don't have the enlarged larynx that is characteristic of human males, and correspondingly they don't have the deeper voice that human males do.

So would they sound like a teenager that hasn't had a voice crack yet, or the vampire party member in Boulder's Gate 3?

They don't sound very different from the females.

[Bamax]

I am curious... since Loroi culture is mostly non-religious, do they have any characters of folklore or history that they use as representations of absolute good or absolute evil?

In human cultures people often have their version of a devil and also their version of a good supernatural character.

What about the Loroi?

I presume maybe they view a past popular empress as a hero to be looked up to (even though she likely had to fight her way to the top above a bloody heap of corpses)?

[Arioch]

I am curious... since Loroi culture is mostly non-religious, do they have any characters of folklore or history that they use as representations of absolute good or absolute evil?

In human cultures people often have their version of a devil and also their version of a good supernatural character.

What about the Loroi?

I presume maybe they view a past popular empress as a hero to be looked up to (even though she likely had to fight her way to the top above a bloody heap of corpses)?

The Loroi heroic mythos is rich with tales of heroism and villainy, but in total the tales usually follow a hero through her trials and exploits all the way to her eventual downfall and death. They are similar in many ways to our mythology of heroes such as Gilgamesh or Heracles or Beowulf or Siegfried... they almost always meet a tragic end (the "happy ending" seems to be largely a post-Renaissance convention). While the Loroi almost deify their legendary heroes in a way similar to Indra or Heracles, they also seem keenly aware of their fallibility and eventual downfall. Part of it ties into the Loroi concept of dalid -- heroism means sacrifice and the burden of misfortune. So a hero may be referred to as an example of virtue, but the same hero might also be referenced as a caution against a particular vice. The same is true to a lesser extent for the villains, as many of the stories are about betrayal and internal strife. There is no absolute good or evil in Loroi mythology.

One of most famous heroic paragons in Loroi mythology is Tempest, whose tale plays out a bit like that of Odysseus... if Odysseus ultimately returned to Ithaca with an army of sirens and destroyed it.

One of the most famous villains is from the same heroic myth: Windfury, the eldest of Tempest's treacherous sisters. And yet despite this she is today at the center of a common Loroi ritual celebrating motherhood.

Barsam theology is well-known enough in Loroi culture that Loroi will sometimes refer to the Barsam embodiments of good and evil -- the Gatherers and the Fallen -- but usually only when they're being sarcastic.

[Bamax]

50209

I am curious... since Loroi culture is mostly non-religious, do they have any characters of folklore or history that they use as representations of absolute good or absolute evil?

In human cultures people often have their version of a devil and also their version of a good supernatural character.

What about the Loroi?

I presume maybe they view a past popular empress as a hero to be looked up to (even though she likely had to fight her way to the top above a bloody heap of corpses)?

The Loroi heroic mythos is rich with tales of heroism and villainy, but in total the tales usually follow a hero through her trials and exploits all the way to her eventual downfall and death. They are similar in many ways to our mythology of heroes such as Gilgamesh or Heracles or Beowulf or Siegfried... they almost always meet a tragic end (the "happy ending" seems to be largely a post-Renaissance convention). While the Loroi almost deify their legendary heroes in a way similar to Indra or Heracles, they also seem keenly aware of their fallibility and eventual downfall. Part of it ties into the Loroi concept of dalid -- heroism means sacrifice and the burden of misfortune. So a hero may be referred to as an example of virtue, but the same hero might also be referenced as a caution against a particular vice. The same is true to a lesser extent for the villains, as many of the stories are about betrayal and internal strife. There is no absolute good or evil in Loroi mythology.

One of most famous heroic paragons in Loroi mythology is Tempest, whose tale plays out a bit like that of Odysseus... if Odysseus ultimately returned to Ithaca with an army of sirens and destroyed it.

One of the most famous villains is from the same heroic myth: Windfury, the eldest of Tempest's treacherous sisters. And yet despite this she is today at the center of a common Loroi ritual celebrating motherhood.

Barsam theology is well-known enough in Loroi culture that Loroi will sometimes refer to the Barsam embodiments of good and evil -- the Gatherers and the Fallen -- but usually only when they're being sarcastic.

That is an interesting and refreahingly sober take on life that the Loroi have.

For the record Arioch, I used to be a very religous person (former Jehovah's Witness here, born and raised), but since I have been free of it the past 4-5 years I no longer am affiliated with any religion, because the cost of being a JW is so high that it has made all religion seem both exhausting and futile (family still in shun me for leaving).

Even in observable nature there is no absolute good or evil. The sun can both wound and heal, it just depends on how much of it you get and for how long (which varies depending on the life form).

Virtually all known things of reality are this way.

If there is an absolute good... it is not observable in our reality.

I have never considered myself absolutely good (nor should any sane person I think), but neither do I take the ridiculous overbearing view that I am a good for nothing slave that has done the good that I ought to have done (JWs are drilled with this scripture often to encourage them to do as they are told and do JW work for free).

Absolutes are something I honestly believe humans and the Barsam put their hope/faith in because they wanted comfort/control over the masses.

I do not consider myself an atheist, at most I now consider myself an open minded almost but questioning agnostic (I find it easier to believe life came from life... whatever it was or is than absolute nothing)

That said, believing in absolutes can and does cause problems because humans are not by their very nature absolute in anything... except some of their beliefs lol.

The only solid belief I believe anyone can put absolute trust and hope in is consequences, AKA cause and effect. Life is the cause, and because our bodies cannot sustain us eternally death is the effect (nevermind the JW belief that we could live forever if we did as we were told as good little JWs)

Question about the Barsam: Human history is a long, long, tale of bloody struggle between those who believed in this or that versus others who believed in something else.

I know the Barsam do not have as bloody or warlike a reputation as the Loroi, but I don't think there is any way they can be as religious as they are without having had a multitude of bloody wars to get where they are now.

Am I right or wrong about the Barsam?

[Arioch]

Question about the Barsam: Human history is a long, long, tale of bloody struggle between those who believed in this or that versus others who believed in something else.

I know the Barsam do not have as bloody or warlike a reputation as the Loroi, but I don't think there is any way they can be as religious as they are without having had a multitude of bloody wars to get where they are now.

Am I right or wrong about the Barsam?

Yes, the Barsam had a long history of internal conflict. There are details in the History section of this article.

[Bamax]

Out of curiousity, on average has Loroi capitol punishment been about as cruel as human capitol punishment or more?

Meaning they did cruel capitol punishment either far longer or much more widespread.

A good human example is the execution of William Wallace.


In Asia there was the practice of death by a thousand cuts (lingchi), which while not literal was a horrible way to go since it could take days or longer... and there was a bit more involved too but I don't want to get too graphic.

What about Loroi history?

On the average, has their capitol punishment been more cruel than human history, either by being more widespread or because they enforced cruel capitol punishment far longer as a society than human civilization?

For example in the USA you do not have to fear execution by being drawn and quartered. We have more quick methods we employ and definitely less bloody ones.

Also does the Loroi current capitol punishment mirror human methods?

Or do they go medieval on condemned enemies of the state during capitol punishment? Making an example and a public spectacle out of them?

[Arioch]

Out of curiousity, on average has Loroi capitol punishment been about as cruel as human capitol punishment or more?

The Loroi have had barbarous periods in their history to rival anything in ours, but they did not make a general practice of torture for reasons of simple practicality: psionic opponents cannot be easily rendered harmless. Loroi leaders tended to be the strongest telepaths and/or psionic users among them, not easily subdued or imprisoned, and certainly not likely to sit meekly by while being tortured. There were exceptions, but most Loroi WIlliam Wallaces died quickly (either on the battlefield or through assassination) and were very rarely taken captive.

For this reason, imprisonment was not used by the Loroi as a punishment, only as a temporary measure for a Loroi awaiting judgment on a lesser crime. Any capital crime had to be dealt with swiftly and on the spot. If a crime was not serious enough to warrant capital punishment, then it was usually punished by banishment or some sort of fines or revocation of privileges.

[Bamax]

Out of curiousity, on average has Loroi capitol punishment been about as cruel as human capitol punishment or more?

The Loroi have had barbarous periods in their history to rival anything in ours, but they did not make a general practice of torture for reasons of simple practicality: psionic opponents cannot be easily rendered harmless. Loroi leaders tended to be the strongest telepaths and/or psionic users among them, not easily subdued or imprisoned, and certainly not likely to sit meekly by while being tortured. There were exceptions, but most Loroi WIlliam Wallaces died quickly (either on the battlefield or through assassination) and were very rarely taken captive.

For this reason, imprisonment was not used by the Loroi as a punishment, only as a temporary measure for a Loroi awaiting judgment on a lesser crime. Any capital crime had to be dealt with swiftly and on the spot. If a crime was not serious enough to warrant capital punishment, then it was usually punished by banishment or some sort of fines or revocation of privileges.

Hmmm... so what you are saying is the Loroi operate more like the mafia or Putin's Russia? Meaning if they want somebody gone they won't bother with legalities... they will just green light them for would be assassins employed by the government.

So if goverment is merciful they will issue a warning to stop what you are doing or else. And if you don't stop then you will have to warch your back the rest if yours days or leave Loroi government controlled territory.

So you will either know they are coming and prepare for a last stand or escape, or get whacked mafia style without you seeing it coming.

Am I correct in my analysis?

[Arioch]

Hmmm... so what you are saying is the Loroi operate more like the mafia or Putin's Russia? Meaning if they want somebody gone they won't bother with legalities... they will just green light them for would be assassins employed by the government.

So if goverment is merciful they will issue a warning to stop what you are doing or else. And if you don't stop then you will have to warch your back the rest if yours days or leave Loroi government controlled territory.

So you will either know they are coming and prepare for a last stand or escape, or get whacked mafia style without you seeing it coming.

Am I correct in my analysis?

No, I was talking about Loroi history and the sorts of situations in which the worst sorts of punishments might have been applied, such as armed insurrection as in the example of William Wallace. This is not how I would characterize the modern Loroi criminal justice system. While it's important to keep in mind that the modern Loroi government is not a liberal democracy, but rather a military police state in which more than half of the population are members of the military, it's also not a lawless thug state in which political opponents are assassinated on a whim.

The modern Loroi system of justice works much like ours does, with courts and trials and legal process. The main differences are that Loroi courts are military, they are courts of fact rather than courts of law, and they still don't use long-term imprisonment as a punishment. Most punishments still involve fines and/or revocations of privileges. Exile is no longer a common punishment in the modern era. However, there is still the practical problem of what to do with rebels or dangerous criminals, since a Loroi psi cannot be safely disarmed.

Under normal circumstances and for most crimes, the suspect will be notified through normal channels and given orders to turn herself in. For most petty crimes a suspect won't even be arrested, just notified to appear. In more serious cases a team of military police will be sent to arrest her. She will be taken into custody normally unless she resists arrest -- and in that event things become potentially deadly. If a subject refuses to cooperate, then the arresting officers really don't have a lot of options. Unless they are confident that they can easily handle any telepathic or psionic abilities that the suspect may have, then if a suspect resists arrest, the police pretty much have to kill her. Sometimes it's possible to use non lethal force to render her unconscious, which may be useful if she has somehow temporarily lost control, but if you have to keep a suspect perpetually sedated then there's not much point in trying to take her alive (especially since resisting arrest is itself a potentially capital crime). In most cases in which an arrest is necessary, sane defendants will surrender peacefully since they know very well that resisting arrest will likely mean death. Hearings or trials are conducted promptly, so suspects usually will not have to spend a long time waiting in detention, during which time she will be very carefully watched by the police wardens.

However, if a Loroi who is known to be dangerous is charged with a capital crime and there is reason to believe that she may not surrender herself peacefully, then the officer responsible for arresting her has some difficult decisions to make. Most Loroi who are that dangerous are likely to be in the military themselves, so on the one hand, the officer may feel obligated out of professional courtesy to give the suspect her chance to answer the charges against her, and there is a military command structure that can be consulted and utilized -- the suspect may even be part of the same unit as the arresting officer. But on the other hand, if the suspect is a trained killer, there is a limit to how many of her own people an officer is willing to sacrifice for honor. (Imagine that you have been told that someone like Fireblade has gone rogue and must be brought to trial for murder. Or worse, someone like Tempo. What do you do?) In such a case, the magistrate can seek to obtain permission to take the suspect out without forewarning. This is rare and there are, of course, strict protocols for obtaining this permission, which in the case of military suspects include the suspect's commanding officer and which usually must be pushed up the chain of command. (But good luck trying to get all this done without Tempo getting wind of it anyway...)

[Bamax]

Hmmm... so what you are saying is the Loroi operate more like the mafia or Putin's Russia? Meaning if they want somebody gone they won't bother with legalities... they will just green light them for would be assassins employed by the government.

So if goverment is merciful they will issue a warning to stop what you are doing or else. And if you don't stop then you will have to warch your back the rest if yours days or leave Loroi government controlled territory.

So you will either know they are coming and prepare for a last stand or escape, or get whacked mafia style without you seeing it coming.

Am I correct in my analysis?

No, I was talking about Loroi history and the sorts of situations in which the worst sorts of punishments might have been applied, such as armed insurrection as in the example of William Wallace. This is not how I would characterize the modern Loroi criminal justice system. While it's important to keep in mind that the modern Loroi government is not a liberal democracy, but rather a military police state in which more than half of the population are members of the military, it's also not a lawless thug state in which political opponents are assassinated on a whim.

The modern Loroi system of justice works much like ours does, with courts and trials and legal process. The main differences are that Loroi courts are military, they are courts of fact rather than courts of law, and they still don't use long-term imprisonment as a punishment. Most punishments still involve fines and/or revocations of privileges. Exile is no longer a common punishment in the modern era. However, there is still the practical problem of what to do with rebels or dangerous criminals, since a Loroi psi cannot be safely disarmed.

Under normal circumstances and for most crimes, the suspect will be notified through normal channels and given orders to turn herself in. For most petty crimes a suspect won't even be arrested, just notified to appear. In more serious cases a team of military police will be sent to arrest her. She will be taken into custody normally unless she resists arrest -- and in that event things become potentially deadly. If a subject refuses to cooperate, then the arresting officers really don't have a lot of options. Unless they are confident that they can easily handle any telepathic or psionic abilities that the suspect may have, then if a suspect resists arrest, the police pretty much have to kill her. Sometimes it's possible to use non lethal force to render her unconscious, which may be useful if she has somehow temporarily lost control, but if you have to keep a suspect perpetually sedated then there's not much point in trying to take her alive (especially since resisting arrest is itself a potentially capital crime). In most cases in which an arrest is necessary, sane defendants will surrender peacefully since they know very well that resisting arrest will likely mean death. Hearings or trials are conducted promptly, so suspects usually will not have to spend a long time waiting in detention, during which time she will be very carefully watched by the police wardens.

However, if a Loroi who is known to be dangerous is charged with a capital crime and there is reason to believe that she may not surrender herself peacefully, then the officer responsible for arresting her has some difficult decisions to make. Most Loroi who are that dangerous are likely to be in the military themselves, so on the one hand, the officer may feel obligated out of professional courtesy to give the suspect her chance to answer the charges against her, and there is a military command structure that can be consulted and utilized -- the suspect may even be part of the same unit as the arresting officer. But on the other hand, if the suspect is a trained killer, there is a limit to how many of her own people an officer is willing to sacrifice for honor. (Imagine that you have been told that someone like Fireblade has gone rogue and must be brought to trial for murder. Or worse, someone like Tempo. What do you do?) In such a case, the magistrate can seek to obtain permission to take the suspect out without forewarning. This is rare and there are, of course, strict protocols for obtaining this permission, which in the case of military suspects include the suspect's commanding officer and which usually must be pushed up the chain of command. (But good luck trying to get all this done without Tempo getting wind of it anyway...)

I see... so Loroi can still act mafia style... they just have some hoops and protocol to jump through to do it without pissing off the authorities.

Seems with the Loroi it is not unlike our own society. Who you are friends with matters more than who you are... meaning even if you are a criminal you will likely be given more consideration before they decide to kill you outright depending how powerful your friends are or how well liked by the masses you are. Since no government wants a revolt or civil war breaking out if it can be avoided.

[SaintofM]

Hmmm... so what you are saying is the Loroi operate more like the mafia or Putin's Russia? Meaning if they want somebody gone they won't bother with legalities... they will just green light them for would be assassins employed by the government.

So if goverment is merciful they will issue a warning to stop what you are doing or else. And if you don't stop then you will have to warch your back the rest if yours days or leave Loroi government controlled territory.

So you will either know they are coming and prepare for a last stand or escape, or get whacked mafia style without you seeing it coming.

Am I correct in my analysis?

No, I was talking about Loroi history and the sorts of situations in which the worst sorts of punishments might have been applied, such as armed insurrection as in the example of William Wallace. This is not how I would characterize the modern Loroi criminal justice system. While it's important to keep in mind that the modern Loroi government is not a liberal democracy, but rather a military police state in which more than half of the population are members of the military, it's also not a lawless thug state in which political opponents are assassinated on a whim.

The modern Loroi system of justice works much like ours does, with courts and trials and legal process. The main differences are that Loroi courts are military, they are courts of fact rather than courts of law, and they still don't use long-term imprisonment as a punishment. Most punishments still involve fines and/or revocations of privileges. Exile is no longer a common punishment in the modern era. However, there is still the practical problem of what to do with rebels or dangerous criminals, since a Loroi psi cannot be safely disarmed.

Under normal circumstances and for most crimes, the suspect will be notified through normal channels and given orders to turn herself in. For most petty crimes a suspect won't even be arrested, just notified to appear. In more serious cases a team of military police will be sent to arrest her. She will be taken into custody normally unless she resists arrest -- and in that event things become potentially deadly. If a subject refuses to cooperate, then the arresting officers really don't have a lot of options. Unless they are confident that they can easily handle any telepathic or psionic abilities that the suspect may have, then if a suspect resists arrest, the police pretty much have to kill her. Sometimes it's possible to use non lethal force to render her unconscious, which may be useful if she has somehow temporarily lost control, but if you have to keep a suspect perpetually sedated then there's not much point in trying to take her alive (especially since resisting arrest is itself a potentially capital crime). In most cases in which an arrest is necessary, sane defendants will surrender peacefully since they know very well that resisting arrest will likely mean death. Hearings or trials are conducted promptly, so suspects usually will not have to spend a long time waiting in detention, during which time she will be very carefully watched by the police wardens.

However, if a Loroi who is known to be dangerous is charged with a capital crime and there is reason to believe that she may not surrender herself peacefully, then the officer responsible for arresting her has some difficult decisions to make. Most Loroi who are that dangerous are likely to be in the military themselves, so on the one hand, the officer may feel obligated out of professional courtesy to give the suspect her chance to answer the charges against her, and there is a military command structure that can be consulted and utilized -- the suspect may even be part of the same unit as the arresting officer. But on the other hand, if the suspect is a trained killer, there is a limit to how many of her own people an officer is willing to sacrifice for honor. (Imagine that you have been told that someone like Fireblade has gone rogue and must be brought to trial for murder. Or worse, someone like Tempo. What do you do?) In such a case, the magistrate can seek to obtain permission to take the suspect out without forewarning. This is rare and there are, of course, strict protocols for obtaining this permission, which in the case of military suspects include the suspect's commanding officer and which usually must be pushed up the chain of command. (But good luck trying to get all this done without Tempo getting wind of it anyway...)

I see... so Loroi can still act mafia style... they just have some hoops and protocol to jump through to do it without pissing off the authorities.

Seems with the Loroi it is not unlike our own society. Who you are friends with matters more than who you are... meaning even if you are a criminal you will likely be given more consideration before they decide to kill you outright depending how powerful your friends are or how well liked by the masses you are. Since no government wants a revolt or civil war breaking out if it can be avoided.

Feels more like the dynamic is allow them to come in on a honor system on a lower charge and more serious ones need to be treated as if a SWAT or other Paramilitary esk police force is needed. For those outside of the USA, SWAT teams are police officers that go in like its a warzone, and have to assume the situation is going to be deadly at the best of times. Considering the psionics on most Loroi, we have to assume they can pull some X-Men/Jedi/40k Warp shenagains.

On a different subject: If Loroi smell like Vanilla to Jardin, without spoiling much, what must he smell like to them? Especially as unless they put him in a shower every now and then he probably has a strong musk to him by now.

[Arioch]

I see... so Loroi can still act mafia style... they just have some hoops and protocol to jump through to do it without pissing off the authorities.

Seems with the Loroi it is not unlike our own society. Who you are friends with matters more than who you are... meaning even if you are a criminal you will likely be given more consideration before they decide to kill you outright depending how powerful your friends are or how well liked by the masses you are. Since no government wants a revolt or civil war breaking out if it can be avoided.

Let's conduct a thought experiment: you're a Loroi magistrate, and you've been informed that a high-ranking Mizol is wanted for a number of crimes including multiple murders, and you are tasked with bringing her to justice. Allegedly, she has already killed several police officers who were investigating her, but she doesn't yet know that they had already reported their findings before they died. There is no physical evidence against her, because she's Mizol and they don't leave physical evidence; you have the report of the now-deceased officers, and the circumstantial evidence of the alleged crimes lines up. You don't know her personally, but you are aware of her abilities: she can mind-control people, make others see whatever she wants them to see, and manipulate electromagnetic devices with a high degree of skill. Even if she allows you to arrest her and place her in a cell, she can essentially escape any time she decides to. If she decides to kill you, there is very little you can do to protect yourself, as you won't know when or how the blow will come (or from whom). Maybe she'll cooperate, or maybe she'll kill you and your entire team. The only advantage that you have is that she doesn't yet know that you're coming.

What is your "non-mafia" solution to this problem?

On a different subject: If Loroi smell like Vanilla to Jardin, without spoiling much, what must he smell like to them? Especially as unless they put him in a shower every now and then he probably has a strong musk to him by now.

You don't know what humans smell like?

Jokes aside, I assume you're asking whether they smell good or bad, since we are not going to have many smell references in common with Loroi. If Loroi found human smell really horrendous, I think that would be pretty unpleasant, so... no. Humans are an alien smell to Loroi, so I think what individual Loroi make of the smell will depend on the individual.

This question reminds me of an experiment in which scientists were testing the qualities of men that women find attractive and unattractive. Specifically testing scent, they collected sweat samples from a variety of men, and then had a variety of women test them and rate how appealing or unappealing each found each sample. Since bottled sweat is not particularly appealing to anyone, the responses mostly ranged from neutral to very unappealing. However, the researchers found a consistent pattern: the more the sniffer differed from the subject in terms of regional and ethnic origin, the more positive the rating. Genetic diversity is a very strong advantage in sexual selection (gene diversity is why sex exists in the first place), so the less familiar a scent is, the less likely it is to be judged unpleasant. Make of that information what you will.

[Snoofman]

I see... so Loroi can still act mafia style... they just have some hoops and protocol to jump through to do it without pissing off the authorities.

Seems with the Loroi it is not unlike our own society. Who you are friends with matters more than who you are... meaning even if you are a criminal you will likely be given more consideration before they decide to kill you outright depending how powerful your friends are or how well liked by the masses you are. Since no government wants a revolt or civil war breaking out if it can be avoided.

Let's conduct a thought experiment: you're a Loroi magistrate, and you've been informed that a high-ranking Mizol is wanted for a number of crimes including multiple murders, and you are tasked with bringing her to justice. Allegedly, she has already killed several police officers who were investigating her, but she doesn't yet know that they had already reported their findings before they died. There is no physical evidence against her, because she's Mizol and they don't leave physical evidence; you have the report of the now-deceased officers, and the circumstantial evidence of the alleged crimes lines up. You don't know her personally, but you are aware of her abilities: she can mind-control people, make others see whatever she wants them to see, and manipulate electromagnetic devices with a high degree of skill. Even if she allows you to arrest her and place her in a cell, she can essentially escape any time she decides to. If she decides to kill you, there is very little you can do to protect yourself, as you won't know when or how the blow will come (or from whom). Maybe she'll cooperate, or maybe she'll kill you and your entire team. The only advantage that you have is that she doesn't yet know that you're coming.

What is your "non-mafia" solution to this problem?

Pains me to say this, but it seems the only logical course of action is to snipe her from afar. Anything close quarters seems to invite only risk that she can hypnotize her attacker.

Otherwise, supposing the criminal in question had to be taken prisoner for intel or being a key figure in some elaborate plot against the Union, she would have to be tranquilized, kept sedated during transport and put in a cell that is impossible to climb out of and just out of reach of any guards to be hypnotized. Any interrogation would have to be done remotely or in the presence of multiple Soroins or Teidars, assuming the criminal in question cannot hypnotize multiple minds at once. And even then all guns (or lethal minds) would have to be trained on the criminal in question at all times.