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[Michael]

damn it, wheres an agree button or like button when you need them?

[fredgiblet]

while the Loroi have destroyed two races that did not join them

It's more than just that. The first race fought multiple wars before the Loroi flipped out and killed them off and the second race was helping the Loroi's enemies in a manner that was making it difficult for the Loroi to maintain their front lines in a battle for survival. Neither case is simply because they wouldn't join up with the Loroi.

As for Alex's choice, I think that the Loroi are the better choice from the perspective of post-Orgus humanity. We know the Umiak treat their allies poorly and we know the Loroi have a penchant for genocide. So we can join people who will treat us poorly and fight against someone who is likely to commit genocide, or we can fight for someone who might not treat us poorly against a group that has not committed genocide (that we know of). To me the choice is pretty clear.

[Michael]

is this stuff we know or would alex know this too?

[Karst45]

well, the umiak enslave most races not joining them, while the Loroi have destroyed two races that did not join them, this says two things to me: One, the Umiak ether lack the ability or the will to destroy an entire race and Two the Loroi have both the ability and will to destroy not one but two entire races.

The umiak just show that they see usefulness to a species even if this one dont want to join them. The loroi did destroyed 2 races but we dont know what happenned to force them to do that.

Also. Slavery is temporary? say who? If the umiak win. will they just release all their "enslaved world"? will they even cut them some slack? or use them to continue enlarging their empire?

[CptWinters]

Is submission not preferable to extinction?

[Nemo]

A nation which can prefer disgrace to danger is prepared for a master, and deserves one!

Would we rather face that danger? I hope so, and increasingly fear not.

[fredgiblet]

Is submission not preferable to extinction?

Depends on the nature of the submission.

[Ktrain]

Well would it be safer to ally with the Loroi since they have a tendency to exterminate their enemies, while the Umiak had a history of subjugating? It seems better to be a prisoners under Umiak occupation rather than under Loroi dominion.

Oh well, more ascots next month I suppose ?

[Nemo]

A fair question, but while it leads to the same answer it is not the thinking I see in Hamilton or Alexander on this page. That line of inquiry presumes failure. Alexander's and Hamilton's presumes victory. One is a kind of risk aversion, seeking the least worst case scenario. The other seeks the best case scenario, not precisely risk seeking, not precisely optimism. Idealism? Perhaps.

[Trantor]

Is submission not preferable to extinction?

Who says extinction is mandatory?

Well would it be safer to ally with the Loroi since they have a tendency to exterminate their enemies, while the Umiak had a history of subjugating? It seems better to be a prisoners under Umiak occupation rather than under Loroi dominion.

Fred gave the answer already:

So we can join people who will treat us poorly and fight against someone who is likely to commit genocide, or we can fight for someone who might not treat us poorly against a group that has not committed genocide (that we know of).

Me agrees.

Tending to siding with an unknown quantity like the Loroi based solely on the way the Umiak abuse their 'allies' is not a safe choice. Far from it. It shows a proclivity to die on ones feet rather than live on ones knees, which does mention victory or extinction. And that seems to be the character of good Hamilton here.

Your approach to the problem is way too simple and leads to flawed analysis and a wrong result.

Me disagrees. See Fred above.

[Trantor]

is this stuff we know or would alex know this too?

We know a bit more than Alex, thanks to the Outsider Insider pages, but concerning the "choice", there´s no difference that we know already that Loroi are hot spaceelves.

At this point i have a question: Was it discussed before that the Orgus gave no hint/had no clue about the similarity of Loroi and humans? Yes, the Orgus lived far from Loroi space, but did they really never saw even a picture of Loroi?

[CptWinters]

Is submission not preferable to extinction?

Depends on the nature of the submission.

I should have been more clear - that's a quote from the big bad of the first Mass Effect game. Since the situation is essentially mirrored in this discussion, it seemed appropriate to bring it up.

[fredgiblet]

It's a reasonable assumption. The various groups are, in effect, exploring new space. The Orgus were not with the Umiak and are, at least a little, behind the lines, meaning they've probably never met a Loroi. Additionally, the particular group that came to us was presumably even farther behind the lines and thus farther removed from contact. The Umiak have no particular reason to disseminate information regarding the Loroi beyond "They already exterminated 2 species and your children are next" and both the Umiak and the Orgus would likely have found physical appearance to be unimportant in their negotiations.

[Trantor]

One, the Umiak ether lack the ability or the will to destroy an entire race

...or lack a cause. I´m pretty sure they´re able to glass an entire system.

and Two the Loroi have both the ability and will to destroy not one but two entire races.

...with a cause. Yes, not a "nice" move, but remember: This is a total war.

With that in mind who would you be friends with?

This is question leads to nothing. This is not a question of friendship, it is one about survival in a total war.

Because don't forget if the war goes bad for the Umiak then those slaves of their might see an opportunity for a rebellion, forcing the Umiak to fight on two fronts

First: Who guarantees us a victory in this case?
Second: Who guarantees us that the Loroi wouldn´t come after us then? They´d still see us at least as former allies of the enemy.

[Nemo]

Your approach to the problem is way too simple and leads to flawed analysis and a wrong result.

Going to give anything to the discussion or just toss flame bait? One train of thought is risk aversion, the other idealism. Are you arguing against that? Or is it that you prefer submission to sure death? Argue that.

[Trantor]

It's a reasonable assumption. The various groups are, in effect, exploring new space. The Orgus were not with the Umiak and are, at least a little, behind the lines, meaning they've probably never met a Loroi. Additionally, the particular group that came to us was presumably even farther behind the lines and thus farther removed from contact.

Isn´t there something like the Internet in the Outsiderverse? When there´s a huge war rampaging next door, i at least would like to be informed.

The Umiak have no particular reason to disseminate information regarding the Loroi beyond "They already exterminated 2 species and your children are next"

Doesn´t seem logical to me. The Orgus are traders, and for traders information is essential. Isn´t there a flow of information? In case of censorship at least beyond official channels?

and both the Umiak and the Orgus would likely have found physical appearance to be unimportant in their negotiations.

Pretty sure not. A species that looks like the archenemy, but without the deadly psi-abilities potentially much easier to control is an asset.

[Trantor]

Your approach to the problem is way too simple and leads to flawed analysis and a wrong result.

Going to give anything to the discussion or just toss flame bait? One train of thought is risk aversion, the other idealism. Are you arguing against that? Or is it that you prefer submission to sure death? Argue that.

Again: See how Fred analysed the problem.
You instead even assume wrong ("...It shows a proclivity to die on ones feet rather than live on ones knees, which does mention victory or extinction...") and based on that AND without an analysis on possible further moves you quickly draw false conclusions.

[Nemo]

Sigh... OK

Fred's first:

It's more than just that. The first race fought multiple wars before the Loroi flipped out and killed them off and the second race was helping the Loroi's enemies in a manner that was making it difficult for the Loroi to maintain their front lines in a battle for survival. Neither case is simply because they wouldn't join up with the Loroi.

And based partly on reader knowledge. Knowledge Alexander & Hamilton lack. Can't rightly base their reasoning on facts they don't have can they? Alex isn't concerned how they treat their enemies, but their friends. They are assuming a total war of extinction as laid out for us in the prologue and judging the landscape the survivors will find themselves. To survive with the Umiak is to be a slave, to survive with the Loroi is perhaps different. Slavery is temporary, annihilation is permanent, so challenges Hamilton. Alex concedes and presses home that yes, even facing death he would prefer freedom. Hamilton concurs. Alex's line of thought is dangerous, and Hamilton is embracing it. They are not engaging in the risk aversion analysis others here have despite the fact that in this case the end result is the same.

If you wish to argue risk aversion is the preferential line of reasoning, take it up with Alexander Hamilton.

[fredgiblet]

Isn´t there something like the Internet in the Outsiderverse? When there´s a huge war rampaging next door, i at least would like to be informed...Doesn´t seem logical to me. The Orgus are traders, and for traders information is essential. Isn´t there a flow of information? In case of censorship at least beyond official channels?

I doubt it. The primary front-line combatants are Umiak, the Umiak have no reason to pass any information that isn't sanitized and heavily spun to anyone else. This isn't modern day Earth where you can enter Iraq or Afghanistan with reasonable ease and send information all over the world with the push a button. All interstellar communication must be carried manually, travel to the front-lines is effectively impossible without being noticed and the Orgus have little to gain and a lot to lose by seeking the information themselves. Those people already under the sway of the Umiak are probably under embargoes regarding information so what little they have will be expensive if the Orgus want it.

Pretty sure not. A species that looks like the archenemy, but without the deadly psi-abilities potentially much easier to control is an asset.

I think you misunderstand. The physical appearance of the Loroi has literally no bearing on negotiations between the Orgus and Umiak pre-invasion, the Orgus have no reason to care what the Loroi look like and the Umiak have no reason to pass such information to them. That the Loroi and humans look alike is irrelevant because this part of the discussion is about before the Umiak invaded the Orgus.

[Trantor]

And based partly on reader knowledge. Knowledge Alexander & Hamilton lack.

That´s called "calculating with unknowns".

Slavery is temporary,

Who guarantees that?
And who says that wasn´t just a spin from the captain to push directions?

Alex's line of thought is dangerous

That´s too much "emo-stuff", or spin. There is no such thing as "dangerous thoughts" in analysis.

and Hamilton is embracing it.

You sure?