Random Discussion on Weapon Systems

[Tanner]

Large objects hurdleing into your planets are probably a topic for advanced races even without human interference. So my guess is that, depending on the star system configuration all advanced races will probably deploy some kind of asteroid defence and recognition grid. Just to sleep well.

Natural occuring asteroids are probably harder to detect against the background noise than a directed attack with "fleets" of kinetic weapons.

But then: If you are willing to wait the the immense time span between attack and defence it might be feasible to build stealth-missiles and just fire them conventionally. At that speed a well built missile would have a devasting impact on a planet not militarized, not rugged planet - and can be stealthed by conventional means of decreasing radiation signature/refraction of incomming radiation.

But waiting 400 plus years just to spell silent doom to planets you haven't really charted and must hit with relative pinpoint accuracy is hardly something you want to rely on.
After all, a weapon your enemy won't fear for whatever reason is not really helping out any wargoals you might have.

If you use it as a measure of diplomatical engagement with the umiak the umiak might just prepare for that kind of attack or even preemptively retialate to gather enough intel to make the defence reasonable unexpensive. But maybe mankind will side with Umiaks and is looking for a way to destroy the loroi race? At least they can display their mind-reading-blocking abilities then

About the ftl idea:
As far as i visualized it, when you enter hyperspace with your bubble, you have "hyperspace momentum" which pushes you father away from real-space. If that force isn't counteracted you will remain in hyperspace forever (at least in real time... maybe you get flushed back when the underlying space as "reticuled" by matter ceases to exist?)
So for FTL drives to work you desperately need a "heavy" target to attract you back into real space-time. Plotting a vector without any heavy objects in the way will not only be risky it will fail every time. Also FTL incursions into star systems can be tracked in an unexpensive way if not obstructed by other radiation i guess.


Another idea i want to promote.
Use of short range ftl drives for the use in capital ship missiles.
It might be possible (with enough finesse in ftl engineering) to just phase out a missile and vector it to the next largest enemy mass concentration on the battlefield either deploying a conventional warhead or kinetic energy, bypassing any point defence systems on their way.

What about even smaller scale "hyper-ballistic" weapons... if the computation power and technical prowess are reasonable high it might be possible to create hand held hyper-space ammunition allowing to negate ground armor and heavy planetside fortifications by just re-entering real space-time at approbriate distances.

[junk]

Keep in mind that outsider verse oes have fairly steep limitations to FTL as far as we know. And as a result is only really feasible for ships of a certain size. And making jumps far enough away from a system's gravity to be able to hit it with relatively finesse.

Hyper munitions and similar are beyond that scope. Obviously some other universes do have similar means of course. The necron of wh40k and their phase technology is a notable example.

[LegioCI]

Ah, Tanner, you are a kindred soul in the art of taking nominally peaceful technology and using it for war and destruction, unfortunately "microjumps" don't work. Because any particular FTL jump is still influenced by gravity, it first has to defeat the escape velocity of the star, or else it will get dragged back into the gravity well of said star.

[TrashMan]

Ya know what? Humans don't need new weapons. What they need is precise jumping.

If human ships could jump in next to enemy ships (thus negating the range disadvantage), their "obsolete" railguins/coilguns become the most terrifying ship killer. At least according to the insider charts, the thing is only outmatched in sheer damage by the Wave-loom.

[Fotiadis_110]

If humans could achieve tactical jumping, they'd have the equivalent of a super weapon.
After all, what's to stop you throwing out NUKES for close in bombardment?

What is there to stop you hurling neutron bombs at planets to erase the living population, and the soldiers who guard it?

In fact it would be SO overpowered, the Loroi would ask for it and be given on threat of glassing earth, and be far more terrifying at combat than they are now.
Jump behind the Umiak before they hit effective range, then chase and shoot them from behind as they hurtle on forwards.

And railguns are effective weapons, they just are far to slow to be able to hit anything at range, and the sheer 'dakka' you'd need to fill up enough area of space they can manoeuvre within by the time your shots get there, you would need to be in a different reality with ships the size of small moons just to have sufficent mass to throw around.
And lets not forget, in space, energy is cheap, you can just throw out a large solar panel... on the other hand, MASS is expensive because it makes every single manoeuvre that much slower, needing that much more energy, and that much more propellant to get from A to B.
And given the situation we are in relies on high mobility and maximum range of weapons, it's safe to say that a turtle will easily be left behind by a swallow who flies off and glasses your planet while your still stumbling around the jump zone.

Actually WH40k vrs outsider... I think outsider wins due to glassing of homeworlds, because I don't think their weapons are strong enough to do enough damage to the empires star-ships, but nothing the empire has could hit a outsider class ship except through random chance. <_<

[Count Casimir]

I've thought a lot about improving hyperspace accuracy in the Outsiderverse (as well as composing a symphony and drafting a plan to bring peace to the galaxy), and I was curious if anybody in-universe was researching a ship with essentially the same function as an Interdictor Cruiser from Star Wars--that is, a ship designed to drag other ships out of hyperspace early. Obviously the mechanics would be different, but I'd wonder if it was possible to cast a Hyperspace "Net"--essentially meaning that if you had ships or outposts sitting on inbound jump vectors with the "Net" cast, you could just plot a course through the system's star and not have to worry about ending up in it.

Of course, then you run the risk of missing the net--I suppose it all depends on how huge a hypernet could be.

EDIT: I think the 40k Imperium wins if they effectively have invincible ships (compared to the Loroi). After all, they too can vaporize a few geologic layers off the top. But the people on this forum always warned me about comparing soft and hard sci-fi...

EDIT AGAIN:

If you had a system that could accelerate a slug to high fractions of lightspeed, that would be preferable. But that's pretty hard to do in a launcher compact enough to fit on a spaceship, and to keep your projectile from being sprayed into plasma by the terrific energies required to accelerate it to that velocity.

New weapon: the plasma spitter! Effective at almost literally point blank range! Either that or make it look like your spaceships are frothing at the mouth!

[junk]

It doesn't help that wh40k is known for destroying entire habitable planets via multiple means and on a relatively common basis.
From igniting the planet's atmosphere, to turning all biomaterial to mush and then igniting the atmosphere to good old standard glasing of the surface. Plus there's at least one ship that can make a planet go boom boom.

And well humans and precise jumps. Keep in mind a big issue with you precise jumping is information. Even if you had precise jumping, you'd need a way to know where to jump to.

The loroi relatively can do that with their farseerers. Humans can't as they don't have any capacity to move FTL information without couriers.

[Karst45]

It doesn't help that wh40k is known for destroying entire habitable planets via multiple means and on a relatively common basis.
From igniting the planet's atmosphere, to turning all biomaterial to mush and then igniting the atmosphere to good old standard glasing of the surface. Plus there's at least one ship that can make a planet go boom boom.

And well humans and precise jumps. Keep in mind a big issue with you precise jumping is information. Even if you had precise jumping, you'd need a way to know where to jump to.

The loroi relatively can do that with their farseerers. Humans can't as they don't have any capacity to move FTL information without couriers.

no but we have sensor, radar and telecope. So even if it not "far far away" we can effectively travel at 1/2 the light speed


in the case of W40k vs outsider. No one win. The loroi outrun their ship, glaze their planet and then? they cant stop the "now pissed off" terran ship from doing the same.

Would the borg win?

[Fotiadis_110]

On Loroi:
I get the feeling the fire-power of the wave loom would consume WH ships like fire does cardboard scraps, and their plasma focus? probably cut through their armour like tissue paper, but run out of steam before it got all the way through, but how exactly would I know?

on Borg:
Borg = Xenos
Xenos doctrine is clear.
Nuke from orbit, if any areas do not glow like magma, nuke it again.

Then as a safety precaution, set the atmosphere on fire.
Never can be too careful.
And cubes are tiny compared to WH ships (given how comically often cubes get blown up, a WH ship would simply overwhelm their screens with massed fire-power, and the fight is over).

Besides, Space marines are far more effective warriors than the Borg, for starters they actually HIT things

And we need to be careful when throwing Star Trek into WH, it could attract the Deathstar II who'd laugh and beam the pair of them :p

But here's a scary thought: Loroi Borg
Loroi already use technological amps to enhance their abilities, the Borg could take that one step further and modify their entire BODY to enhance their telepathy/mind reading/telekinesis
*shudders*
Now there's a weapon that you can appreciate, a telekinetic individual who looks at star ships and tears them in half.

On a side thought I wonder if the Loroi actually have any particular individuals who are gifted enough that that could be a real possibility, some kind of savant individual.

[junk]

It doesn't help that wh40k is known for destroying entire habitable planets via multiple means and on a relatively common basis.
From igniting the planet's atmosphere, to turning all biomaterial to mush and then igniting the atmosphere to good old standard glasing of the surface. Plus there's at least one ship that can make a planet go boom boom.

And well humans and precise jumps. Keep in mind a big issue with you precise jumping is information. Even if you had precise jumping, you'd need a way to know where to jump to.

The loroi relatively can do that with their farseerers. Humans can't as they don't have any capacity to move FTL information without couriers.

no but we have sensor, radar and telecope. So even if it not "far far away" we can effectively travel at 1/2 the light speed


in the case of W40k vs outsider. No one win. The loroi outrun their ship, glaze their planet and then? they cant stop the "now pissed off" terran ship from doing the same.

Would the borg win?

Oh I thought people were talking about long distance extreme precision jumps. Something like jumping from system to system with pinpoint accuracy.

Obviously intra system microjumps woulndn't require FTL information gathering. Though it would still be amazingly useful.


Also from what we've observed until now, outsider ships won't outrun imperial, nor outfight. Let alone eldar or necron. Just saying. We've been about the wh40k argument before though And while wh40k is no cultureverse, it's pretty damn high up on the scale.

[fredgiblet]

On a side thought I wonder if the Loroi actually have any particular individuals who are gifted enough that that could be a real possibility, some kind of savant individual.

My understanding is that Fireblade is near the top-end as far as TKs go.

[TrashMan]

in the case of W40k vs outsider. No one win. The loroi outrun their ship, glaze their planet and then? they cant stop the "now pissed off" terran ship from doing the same.

Warp travel is ...variable. But in actuallity it is really fast. The IoM controls the entire GALAXY.

Ho long would it take for a Loroi ships to go from one end of it to another?

On another note...WH40K has redicolously powerfull weaponry adn defences. And has Alha psykers, which can crush ships with a thought.p

[TrashMan]

On Loroi:
I get the feeling the fire-power of the wave loom would consume WH ships like fire does cardboard scraps, and their plasma focus? probably cut through their armour like tissue paper, but run out of steam before it got all the way through, but how exactly would I know?

40K ships slug it out for HOURS...all the while throwing peta-wats of energy at eachotther.

Besides, Space marines are far more effective warriors than the Borg, for starters they actually HIT things

Spehhs Mahrines are teh ultimate badasses.

And we need to be careful when throwing Star Trek into WH, it could attract the Deathstar II who'd laugh and beam the pair of them :p

Blackstone Fortresses say "no".

[Fotiadis_110]

my understanding from the WH40k universe is this: their ships are SLOW and don't accelerate very fast at all, however they happily take shortcuts through the alternative dimension the warp, in order to achieve viable FTL travel.

Outsider ships are self confessed to pull 30 g and have an effective weapon range of 2 ls against similar targets doing similar stunts.

War40k ships have a combat range close enough that ship boarding actions are a viable option without spending an hour charging at your opponent, heck they have ships built with bows to simply fly THROUGH opposing ships.

This suggests War40k ships fight at close ranges with insane numbers of weapons, and relying on heavy armour at short range in order to hit.
Outsider ships could sit back and blast the 40k ships as long as they wanted, and focus their firepower on certain parts of their hull while flying around randomly at long range (maybe 3-4 ls) and tear the 40k ships to pieces bit by bit, and the waveloom is something that would support such weapons with the ability to blast through the hull based on interpretation and speculation commonly agreed on (long range high energy, directed energy and probably moderately long duration weapon).
We don't know exactly though

So either the Loroi can take their ships apart piece by piece, OR they can stay far enough away the 40k ships can't hit them.
From my understanding warp travel is long distance only, as navigational guidance is based off the beacon on earth. Trying to use it in tactical combat would be madness, but against something so small, could be profitable.
Of course then you get the question of psychers vrs telepathic suggestion, ignoring and removing humanities 'shield' and making them more normal, psychers would be mind raped in a rather amusing manner, along with the body of troops around them :p
Then Fireblade would pick them up and play with their drooling bodies as dolls and have a tea party with them ^_^

Also the only psychers capable of such feats as tearing apart ships are those who are halfway corrupted by chaos anyway, and they aren't exactly 'their own' powers at that point, or they are plot events <_<.

[Karst45]

But here's a scary thought: Loroi Borg
Loroi already use technological amps to enhance their abilities, the Borg could take that one step further and modify their entire BODY to enhance their telepathy/mind reading/telekinesis

Well there is borg tribble who are suspected to have some telepathic/empathic ability so why not borg loroi. they would assimilate loroi tech and loroi and with that.....

And cubes are tiny compared to WH ships (given how comically often cubes get blown up, a WH ship would simply overwhelm their screens with massed fire-power, and the fight is over).

They would have loroi tactical fusion cube! they could then assimilate the WH ships. if not, they would adapt their shield to counter WH weapon.

Other point: they (the borg) dont have an accessible home world. So they can just scatter and reform with the new information they gained from previous battle. On the long run, the Loroi / tibble borg win, All HAIL THE BORG!!!

[TrashMan]

my understanding from the WH40k universe is this: their ships are SLOW and don't accelerate very fast at all, however they happily take shortcuts through the alternative dimension the warp, in order to achieve viable FTL travel.

I don't any numbers for speed or distances are ever given for 40K ships.

Outsider ships could sit back and blast the 40k ships as long as they wanted, and focus their firepower on certain parts of their hull while flying around randomly at long range (maybe 3-4 ls) and tear the 40k ships to pieces bit by bit, and the waveloom is something that would support such weapons with the ability to blast through the hull based on interpretation and speculation commonly agreed on (long range high energy, directed energy and probably moderately long duration weapon).
We don't know exactly though

40K ships could disengage at any time. Warp travel is fast...real fast.

A 40K fleet could drop from warp above a Loroi planet, perform an exterminatus, and go away without taking any damage (the void ships are redicolously tough). Basicly, the Loroi ships would be left without any support infrastructure.

From my understanding warp travel is long distance only, as navigational guidance is based off the beacon on earth. Trying to use it in tactical combat would be madness, but against something so small, could be profitable.

For long-distane travel, the Astronomican is used. For short distances, a navigator can use other means. He could use the Loroi fleet as a beacon itself (as every psyker can far-sense).

Of course then you get the question of psychers vrs telepathic suggestion, ignoring and removing humanities 'shield' and making them more normal, psychers would be mind raped in a rather amusing manner, along with the body of troops around them :p
Then Fireblade would pick them up and play with their drooling bodies as dolls and have a tea party with them ^_^

Psykers crush tanks with their minds, shoot lighting and open tears in reality.
Also, all psykers are equipped with psychic hoods

Also the only psychers capable of such feats as tearing apart ships are those who are halfway corrupted by chaos anyway, and they aren't exactly 'their own' powers at that point, or they are plot events <_<.

[/quote]

Not necessarily.

[TrashMan]

Seems I am wrong..as one guys on Bolter and Chainsword corrected me.

BFG naval battles take place at distances of hundreds of thousands of miles/millions of miles, not the Wars/Trek standard of having mile-long ships five feet away from each other.

In Flight of the Eisenstein, the Phalanx, after dropping out of warp way out past Pluto, Neptune, and a tenth planet, comes racing in at 75% of the speed of light "crossing the orbit of Neptune in a shower of dazzling radiation".

In Nemesis, the assassin ship's speed when being pursued by Horus's fleet, is 25% of the speed of light.

And for comparison, according to Rogue Trader, ships normally reach 1% of the speed of light on the way out (after some time slowly accelerating), or come in at 1% of light speed and decelerate as they go, until they arrive in the inner reaches.

The "combat speeds" of said ships are far slower than the maximum speeds (possibly to give them time to react and manuever, this close in toward the planets)- for comparison, a Cobra has a speed of 10 VU per strategic turn (1 VU = 10,000 km, 1 Strategic turn = 30 minutes- that makes it 200,000 km per hour)

[junk]

my understanding from the WH40k universe is this: their ships are SLOW and don't accelerate very fast at all, however they happily take shortcuts through the alternative dimension the warp, in order to achieve viable FTL travel.

Outsider ships are self confessed to pull 30 g and have an effective weapon range of 2 ls against similar targets doing similar stunts.

War40k ships have a combat range close enough that ship boarding actions are a viable option without spending an hour charging at your opponent, heck they have ships built with bows to simply fly THROUGH opposing ships.

This suggests War40k ships fight at close ranges with insane numbers of weapons, and relying on heavy armour at short range in order to hit.
Outsider ships could sit back and blast the 40k ships as long as they wanted, and focus their firepower on certain parts of their hull while flying around randomly at long range (maybe 3-4 ls) and tear the 40k ships to pieces bit by bit, and the waveloom is something that would support such weapons with the ability to blast through the hull based on interpretation and speculation commonly agreed on (long range high energy, directed energy and probably moderately long duration weapon).
We don't know exactly though

So either the Loroi can take their ships apart piece by piece, OR they can stay far enough away the 40k ships can't hit them.
From my understanding warp travel is long distance only, as navigational guidance is based off the beacon on earth. Trying to use it in tactical combat would be madness, but against something so small, could be profitable.
Of course then you get the question of psychers vrs telepathic suggestion, ignoring and removing humanities 'shield' and making them more normal, psychers would be mind raped in a rather amusing manner, along with the body of troops around them :p
Then Fireblade would pick them up and play with their drooling bodies as dolls and have a tea party with them ^_^

Also the only psychers capable of such feats as tearing apart ships are those who are halfway corrupted by chaos anyway, and they aren't exactly 'their own' powers at that point, or they are plot events <_<.

Keep in mind that the ships that tend to have ramming prows (usually either ork or chaos) are run on collective racial magic or demons which make them so incredibly tough that they are able to withstand concentrated barrages of firepower without too much damage.

On top of that, ships in wh40k are built to last. Compared to most universes the ships do not have shielding on outside of engadgements. That means that they are constantly pummeled by micrometerorites and other debris without it playing mcuh of a role. Overall they also tend to usually fight over fairly massive distances. These ramming ships tend to be an exception and are rarely employed by anyone but those two races.

As to your psyker arguments. I would garner a safe bet that Fireblade cannot compare to a deamon. On top of that, if she did manage to enter the mind of a human psyker in 40k, she might get exposed directly to the warp. So the one who'd be drooling would probably be her.

Overall both universes run on different versions of applied phlebotinum. But 40k is designed from the ground up to be over the top. Outsider on the other hand tends to stay down to earth.

[Jack]

The energy from the fuel unit for different torpedoes in units:
Loroi USR "Tolot" Torpedo 4200
Loroi SR Torpedo 10800
Loroi MR Torpedo 18900
Loroi LR Torpedo 33600
Loroi DX Armored Blister 201600
Umiak Micro SR Torpedo 3000
Umiak FSR Torpedo 9360
Umiak FMR Torpedo 18225
Umiak XHSR Torpedo 12000
Umiak XMR+ Torpedo 11880
Umiak HMR Torpedo 23760
Umiak HLR Torpedo 48000
Umiak HXLR Torpedo 72000
Umiak "Rockeye" 57600
Umiak "Scatter Pack" 120000

The greatest difference 67.2
The biggest difference Loroi 48
The biggest difference Umiak 40
For example, the difference in this parameter in a two-stroke glow engine of small volume for model aircraft and marine diesel high power and maximum efficiency - 4-5 times.

For the fighters decided to reverse the task: take the best characteristics of a torpedo engine each race, and based on them calculated the on-board supply of speed (megameters per second).
Loroi "Arrow" Light Interceptor 0,126
Loroi "Tornado" Interceptor 0,161
Loroi "Banshee" Attack Craft 0,134
Loroi "Lancer" Heavy Fighter 0,126
Loroi "Fury" Super Fighter 0,101
Umiak Quad Gunboat 0,013
Umiak Medium Gunboat 0,006
Umiak Heavy Gunboat 0,004

[Jack]

Arioch, the engine can be made closer in terms of efficiency?
To do this, for example, reduce the supply of fuel to the small torpedo, about ten times. Increase fuel reserves a hundred times on the fighters. and a thousand times on the gunboats.