Loroi sexuality

[Trantor]

At least we have more fun than those who believe and obey.

Yes and i hear the sunsets at the loony bin is quite lovely this time of the year .

Do you understand the meaning of "pattern"?

Yes do you? If you do please remember to motivate your answer since you've had a very poor record of it as of late.

And lastly: Are you doubting whether or not i'm serously asking if you are trolling me or are you doubting the seriousness of your trolling?

One question: Are you sober?

[Jericho]

One question: Are you sober?

Do you doubt it? If so why?

[Trantor]

Yes or no?

[Jericho]

Yes or no?

This is not question is it?

But if you have to know yes.

[Suederwind]

...I think we've gotten off subject here.

Indeed!

[Jericho]

...I think we've gotten off subject here.

Indeed!

You know... i'd have thought that if there was any thread that would remain on topic it would be a thread on blue vaginas and how to use them. But humans work in mysterious ways.

[fredgiblet]

You're entire reasoning is based on three falsehoods
First: you assume that we'll tell them what we're up to.
Second: You assume we can't keep it hidden.
Thirldy: You assume that we'll commit our full force too the war effort.

I assume no such thing. I assume that if we tried to do what you're saying we would try to hide it, but the Loroi won't be leaving us alone, they're going to have people poring over everything we do to see if there's more ways we can help the war effort. Hiding the enormous expenditure of resources on building even a moderate fleet will be impossible without a concerted effort and the more people involved the more points of failure there are. You're talking about keeping the Manhattan Project a secret from our allies when everyone involved knows exactly what's going on and what's going on has a high chance of being directly in conflict with our best interests. It's extremely likely to backfire.

If we don't commit ourselves to the war effort the Loroi will make us. The only reason they aren't pushing the Historians is because the Historians have the power to push back, we don't, at all. Slacking will get us nothing but more strict oversight and while some people would be perfectly fine with being whipped by a Loroi slavemaster it's not going to be conducive to your goals.

And of course that's not even touching on the most important part, if we build a fleet of the ships we have the Loroi will laugh as they use us for target practice. A single Loroi destroyer could wipe the floor with the entire TCA as it stands. With 10 times as many ships we might annoy a cruiser, with 100 times as many they might need to send a small detachment to put us down. We won't be able to build anything worthwhile until they've taught us a LOT of technology by which point we'll already be learning to live with the situation.

But here in the Outsiderverse we will presumably have a huge pile of dead bugs, a financially ruined Loroi society (Britain after WW2 anyone?), a scarred Humanity, and some pretty unscarred Historians. And some other supporting actors on the scene (Barsam etc).

The Loroi will be more likely to be the Soviets post war than Britain. Massive military, militaristic culture, economy battered but functioning and riding high on the morale boost of victory. The only reason they're in dire straits right now is because they're losing, if the tide turns, the morale comes back and the pressure eases, they'll probably be fine.

Do you have another option?

Historians?

What makes you think they will be better? What makes you think they will ally with us against he Loroi in the first place? What makes you think we will be allowed to have any significant communication with them?

We have to be careful (a task for our top diplomats) and hope that the developement of the war will leave more room to manouver.

The treaties will need to be signed now, not in 5 years when we get to watch how things play out. If we hold back and spend too much time mucking around we'll end up being found by the Umiak and having the choice taken from us. Playing the sides against each other doesn't work when they're both willing and able to take you out.

Later in the war we might be able to show our value in a way that makes us able to get better terms from the Loroi, but the longer we're in their sphere of influence the less likely it will be that we'll have a reason to fight them, unless they're stupid and try to iron fist us. In 10 years we'll have near total economic interdependence to a degree that rebelling would be ruinous and we'll probably have more influence on the Loroi than any other client race.

The Historians have more firepower and they play a vicious game.

I'll agree that the Historians are likely be a nasty bunch behind the GM screen, but I doubt they would be giving the Loroi support if they could handle themselves. There's obviously plenty of room for other things to happen, but betting your species on a total unknown that MIGHT have a slightly better result in the end is pretty dumb. It's like drawing to an inside straight in poker when your life is on the line and you can fold for a good result as well.

Can you please explain?

The Historians have shown no sign of being interested outside their territory, even when they were attacked the retreated rather than defending. The Loroi are here, they are coming towards us whether we want them to or not, they have the territory between us and the Historians. They are running things, regardless of what weapons the Historians might be hiding behind their borders.

Why so?

I'm assuming that no one involved is stupid. The Mizol will probably jump into our media culture to ingratiate the Loroi and our businesses will jump at the chance to export to the Loroi creating economic dependencies. We'll send people over there to aid them at whatever they ask for, they'll have bases built on our worlds that are still largely staffed by our people. Unless they go full-on xenophobe and do everything they can to prevent our integration there's going to be a lot of mixing and unless they're stupid I think we will end up without much to complain about.

Give us some assistance and a decade or two and we'll be the Outsider version of Japan.

A heartily "boo" from Germany!

...

Do you WANT to be known as a place that makes cool stuff and has EXTREMELY strange sexual media?

[fredgiblet]

You know... i'd have thought that if there was any thread that would remain on topic it would be a thread on blue vaginas and how to use them. But humans work in mysterious ways.

You're implying that political matters aren't directly related to how the blue vaginas would be used. I assure you that the politics of the situation are deeply important to that question.

[Mayhem]

An Alliance has not yet been formed.
If the Loroi "negotiation" fleet after much effort and time determine that

1. humanity really is an Umiak plot
2. or humanity is secretly dealing with the Umiak
3. or humanity is not negotiating in good faith
4. or that humanity just wouldn't work out with the Loroi union

then extermination would be an appropriate response.

If the Barsam and the Historians aren't included in the negotiation fleet then they would have no way to know better.

No, the Historians would prevent that. We will become too much of an asset to them.

How and Why?

If the Loroi do not allow the Historians access to Alex, don't tell them where humanity is when the Loroi find out, and don't invite them along when the "negotiation" fleet is sent out; how are the Historians supposed to prevent humanities extermination?

Why would they care?
It is not as if the Historians know anything about us (except our ships are crap by local standards) and it is not as if they stepped in before when the Loroi exterminated other species for just trying to sit the war out.

If the Loroi exterminate us then the status quo is maintained which - if the Historians are the shadowy manipulators some believe them to be - the Historians seem to be okay with in general. It is not as if they are going to great lengths to change things drastically.

[Jericho]

I assume no such thing. I assume that if we tried to do what you're saying we would try to hide it, but the Loroi won't be leaving us alone, they're going to have people poring over everything we do to see if there's more ways we can help the war effort. Hiding the enormous expenditure of resources on building even a moderate fleet will be impossible without a concerted effort and the more people involved the more points of failure there are. You're talking about keeping the Manhattan Project a secret from our allies when everyone involved knows exactly what's going on and what's going on has a high chance of being directly in conflict with our best interests. It's extremely likely to backfire.

If we don't commit ourselves to the war effort the Loroi will make us. The only reason they aren't pushing the Historians is because the Historians have the power to push back, we don't, at all. Slacking will get us nothing but more strict oversight and while some people would be perfectly fine with being whipped by a Loroi slavemaster it's not going to be conducive to your goals.

And of course that's not even touching on the most important part, if we build a fleet of the ships we have the Loroi will laugh as they use us for target practice. A single Loroi destroyer could wipe the floor with the entire TCA as it stands. With 10 times as many ships we might annoy a cruiser, with 100 times as many they might need to send a small detachment to put us down. We won't be able to build anything worthwhile until they've taught us a LOT of technology by which point we'll already be learning to live with the situation.

Yes you are assuming that we can't keep it hidden based on the assumption that they are going to be everywhere and have access to everything and know everything we do. They aren't going to be able to keep up with everything. How do you propose they'll find out?

And lastly of course we're not going to build a fleet with the ships we have today. humanity is going to do whatever they can to put their technology on equal level with the aliens. Besides determined humans aren't going to get used to an overbearing superstate thinking it's superior to us. We'll just use whatever we learn from them against them like the germans did against the romans.

[Jericho]

You know... i'd have thought that if there was any thread that would remain on topic it would be a thread on blue vaginas and how to use them. But humans work in mysterious ways.

You're implying that political matters aren't directly related to how the blue vaginas would be used. I assure you that the politics of the situation are deeply important to that question.

Yes but i don't think thats why people thought this thread had gone of topic .

[Trantor]

But here in the Outsiderverse we will presumably have a huge pile of dead bugs, a financially ruined Loroi society (Britain after WW2 anyone?), a scarred Humanity, and some pretty unscarred Historians. And some other supporting actors on the scene (Barsam etc).

The Loroi will be more likely to be the Soviets post war than Britain.

And the Historians the US.
The Historians may be "members" of the alliance, but they´re not Loroi´s best friends.

Massive military, militaristic culture, economy battered but functioning and riding high on the morale boost of victory. The only reason they're in dire straits right now is because they're losing, if the tide turns, the morale comes back and the pressure eases, they'll probably be fine.

They will be bled out and bankrupt. Pyrrhic victory, a classic.

What makes you think they will be better?

They´re not better. They let the Loroi fight a proxy war.
After the Umiak are gone they need other proxies.

What makes you think they will ally with us against he Loroi in the first place?

They will not "ally" with us...

What makes you think we will be allowed to have any significant communication with them?

What? You think the Loroi are in any position to prevent the Historians from doing so?

The treaties will need to be signed now, not in 5 years when we get to watch how things play out.

As i said, a top job for the top diplomats.

If we hold back and spend too much time mucking around we'll end up being found by the Umiak and having the choice taken from us. Playing the sides against each other doesn't work when they're both willing and able to take you out.

See above.

The Historians have more firepower and they play a vicious game.

I'll agree that the Historians are likely be a nasty bunch behind the GM screen, but I doubt they would be giving the Loroi support if they could handle themselves.

Proxy...
Let others bleed for you.

The Historians have shown no sign of being interested outside their territory

...and no interest in others coming to their territory. That´s why they need someone else as buffer/bleeder.

even when they were attacked the retreated rather than defending.

Strategy?

The Loroi are here, they are coming towards us whether we want them to or not, they have the territory between us and the Historians.

In 3D?

...
Unless they go full-on xenophobe and do everything they can to prevent our integration there's going to be a lot of mixing...

Very probably, yes. But what exactly will prevent the Historians from "talking" to us?

Do you WANT to be known as a place that makes cool stuff and has EXTREMELY strange sexual media?

Oh, this.
No, i was thinking in terms of tech. Tech´r´us, y´know...

[fredgiblet]

Yes you are assuming that we can't keep it hidden based on the assumption that they are going to be everywhere and have access to everything and know everything we do. They aren't going to be able to keep up with everything. How do you propose they'll find out?

How do you propose to keep it secret? You're talking about massive amounts of men and materiel, building a fleet in the main systems will be blatantly obvious, building it somewhere else will require enormous movements of equipment and materials. All of this requires people, lots and lots of people, people who can't ever talk about it despite it being obvious what's happening. People who have to believe that it's not only a good idea, but the best idea, despite the fact that if any word of it gets out the Loroi will come down on us like a ton of bricks. If we work with them they'll probably mostly leave us alone (since our long-term value is largely dependent on our society being left alone), if we work against them and fail they will kill us, if we work against them and get caught they may not kill us but they won't give us a chance to be a danger ever again.

And lastly of course we're not going to build a fleet with the ships we have today. humanity is going to do whatever they can to put their technology on equal level with the aliens.

That's going to take a long time. Even with their aid it'll be years before we are equal, and even then we won't have industrial-scale construction options in place for the relevant equipment. You're talking about maintaining a "resistance" until long after the war is won (since if it's lost we're screwed anyway) and long after we'll begin integrating with them.

Besides determined humans aren't going to get used to an overbearing superstate thinking it's superior to us. We'll just use whatever we learn from them against them like the germans did against the romans.

If the Loroi are stupid that will be a problem, if they aren't stupid they'll be hand-off and mostly let us run our own stuff. That's the only way they'll get the most value out of us. Our politicians may chafe on occasion, but the risk won't be worth the reward.

[fredgiblet]

And the Historians the US.

I see no indication that the Historians are going to come out of the war with enormous political influence, an over-sized, experienced military and half of the Loroi/Umiak engineers and scientists. It's certainly possible for there to be change in circumstance at some point, but I see the Historians as the Swiss, not the Antarans.

They will be bled out and bankrupt. Pyrrhic victory, a classic.

You probably would have assumed the same about the Soviets in 1942 wouldn't you?

They´re not better. They let the Loroi fight a proxy war.
After the Umiak are gone they need other proxies.

So then your goal for us is to be pawns until the Historians are done with and kill us off too? Sounds like a plan.

As i said, a top job for the top diplomats.

You're putting an enormous amount of trust in our ability to stall and maneuver them into doing exactly what we want while they have very little reason to do so. You're also playing a game of brinksmanship where everyone else has all the cards. What is the benefit of this again?

[Trantor]

And the Historians the US.

I see no indication that the Historians are going to come out of the war with enormous political influence, an over-sized, experienced military and half of the Loroi/Umiak engineers and scientists.

Don´t get lost in the details...

They will be bled out and bankrupt. Pyrrhic victory, a classic.

You probably would have assumed the same about the Soviets in 1942 wouldn't you?

No, but for the brits.

They´re not better. They let the Loroi fight a proxy war.
After the Umiak are gone they need other proxies.

So then your goal for us is to be pawns until the Historians are done with and kill us off too? Sounds like a plan.

C´mon fredge, you can do better.
We shouldn´t be so stoopid and start a war before we´re really ready (read: ahead in tech). ´39 was too early, ´42 with full momentum would have served better.

As i said, a top job for the top diplomats.

You're putting an enormous amount of trust in our ability to stall and maneuver

That´s the only thing we have.

Your scenario as subjugated toy- and freakshow for blueskinned space-b*tches isn´t really better.

[fredgiblet]

C´mon fredge, you can do better.
We shouldn´t be so stoopid and start a war before we´re really ready (read: ahead in tech). ´39 was too early, ´42 with full momentum would have served better.

I'm not seeing it. You seem to be implying that we're going to ally with the Loroi, gain their protection from the Umiak who are on their way, but also have complete autonomy to out-tech the Loroi and build a fleet without any oversight. That's not going to happen, I don't care how much you talk about "top diplomats". Then we're going to set up a secret treaty with the Historians to betray the Loroi at the opportune moment which will require genocide since the Loroi are hard enough for the Umiak to handle and despite being outnumbered and out-bred by the Loroi who have decades of experience fighting space wars we'll wipe them out and be best buddies with the Historians who will accept US in the same position that they previously betrayed the Loroi in. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

That's also assuming that we'll be teching up to that level on our own anytime soon, we won't. The Loroi will be required for us to get anywhere near that level within a reasonable timeframe which places their people deep in our science and engineering centers. The Historians would do as well, but if we reject aid from the Loroi then they'll be extremely suspicious of the tech gains we'll make even with the reputation we'll be getting.

[JQBogus]

We shouldn´t be so stoopid and start a war before we´re really ready (read: ahead in tech). ´39 was too early, ´42 with full momentum would have served better.

20/20 hindsight says you're right. But then, the people at the time didn't have that.

While delaying the whole timeline of the war in Europe would have resulted in the Wehrmacht being better prepared, Germany's opponents would also be better prepared. One example being that the Red Army/Soviet military industrial complex woulr probably have finished (and possibly recovered from) the purges/reorganization that it was in the midst of in 1941.

[Jericho]

How do you propose to keep it secret? You're talking about massive amounts of men and materiel, building a fleet in the main systems will be blatantly obvious, building it somewhere else will require enormous movements of equipment and materials. All of this requires people, lots and lots of people, people who can't ever talk about it despite it being obvious what's happening. People who have to believe that it's not only a good idea, but the best idea, despite the fact that if any word of it gets out the Loroi will come down on us like a ton of bricks. If we work with them they'll probably mostly leave us alone (since our long-term value is largely dependent on our society being left alone), if we work against them and fail they will kill us, if we work against them and get caught they may not kill us but they won't give us a chance to be a danger ever again.


That's going to take a long time. Even with their aid it'll be years before we are equal, and even then we won't have industrial-scale construction options in place for the relevant equipment. You're talking about maintaining a "resistance" until long after the war is won (since if it's lost we're screwed anyway) and long after we'll begin integrating with them.


If the Loroi are stupid that will be a problem, if they aren't stupid they'll be hand-off and mostly let us run our own stuff. That's the only way they'll get the most value out of us. Our politicians may chafe on occasion, but the risk won't be worth the reward.

First: Keeping a secret is way easier than obtaining the truth. If you don't want them to find out then don't talk to them. without faster than light sensors keeping track on what happens in a system without fleet in every corner. I don't think they'll commit that large of a force to one species if they are smart by your standards. Unless they immediately suspect that we are planning something behind their back and are a threat worhty of considiration they'll be none the wiser. and don't bother with spies alien informants aren't that efficient.

Second: You must motivate to me how they'll find out. Since your entire argument is based on the assumption that they do but you never explain why. Please don't bother responding if you can't answer this one point.

Third: So what if it's going to take time. Time is on our side. You do not know how long this war will last. As long as the loroi are going strong we're winning because the longer the war takes the more time we have to strengthen ourselves. The only problem with moving materials and equipment is if the loroi know how much we can produce for them and they're suspecting we arent filling the bill. Again how would they know.

Fourth: Finding qualified, devoted personnel is not going to be difficult in a population 25 billion. If you wan't to move them without arousing suspicion then don't tell anyone or claim they're civillian contractors for a private company.

Fifth: I don't know if you are arguing for my position or against me. You say that if the loroi are smart they'll leave us to handle our own affairs. How does this not help my position? You've just presented the window of opportunity for exactly what i'm proposing.

[Trantor]

I'm not seeing it. You seem to be implying that we're going to ally with the Loroi, gain their protection from the Umiak who are on their way, but also have complete autonomy to out-tech the Loroi and build a fleet without any oversight.

The out-tech part comes from the Historians.

That's not going to happen, I don't care how much you talk about "top diplomats".

The more scope for developement we have from the beginning, the better it is for us. It is very important that we have access or the right/abilty to contact the other allies directly and not via the Loroi. That´s the core point that our diplomats have to secure. Everything else would be subjugation.
And i fail to see why that should be soo desirable.

Then we're going to set up a secret treaty

Not necessarily secret. The Historians could do that in the very open, when the Loroi bleed out further.

with the Historians to betray the Loroi at the opportune moment which will require genocide

In the very end, certainly. Read your Sun Tzu.
The Loroi are crazy witches. We spoiled their fairy tales just by our very existance. They will come for us sooner or later. I can´t believe that you fail to see the necessity to prepare for that war.

since the Loroi are hard enough for the Umiak to handle and despite being outnumbered and out-bred by the Loroi who have decades of experience fighting space wars

Well, cavalry has had a history of several thousand years...
In a battle it´s all about firepower. If you outgun your opponent, you win.

and be best buddies with the Historians who will accept US in the same position that they previously betrayed the Loroi in.

Not best buddies. But if someone doesn´t f*** with them, they will let them live.
That´s the advantage when you deal with beancounters.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

With pleasure.

That's also assuming that we'll be teching up to that level on our own anytime soon, we won't.

Exactly. The Historians will provide that.
And of course they won´t give us their latest tech, but just enough to be ahead of the elves.

While delaying the whole timeline of the war in Europe would have resulted in the Wehrmacht being better prepared, Germany's opponents would also be better prepared. One example being that the Red Army/Soviet military industrial complex woulr probably have finished (and possibly recovered from) the purges/reorganization that it was in the midst of in 1941.

No, Stalin didn´t see it coming in ´40, so IMHO he wouldn´t have seen it later, too.
There was a time from 40-41, when Stalin´s position was indeed not very stable/unquestioned due to his incompetence. He barely made it through that time, and thanks to his PR this is barely remebered today.

And overall, of course there had to be the game-changers at hand in huge numbers first, the "wunderwaffen" and - the bomb. At least a preview on the latter.

[Trantor]

First: Keeping a secret is way easier than obtaining the truth. If you don't want them to find out then don't talk to them.

Hahaha. As if there´s nothing like espionage and traitors.

Please don't bother responding if you can't answer this one point.

I see potential for improvement in tone.
And pls would you be so kind to answer my question from yesterday?

The only problem with moving materials and equipment is if the loroi know how much we can produce for them and they're suspecting we arent filling the bill. Again how would they know.

See 1.

Fourth: Finding qualified, devoted personnel is not going to be difficult in a population 25 billion.

Yeah, but only ONE traitor, and everything is toast.

If you wan't to move them without arousing suspicion then don't tell anyone

See 1.