The Current State of Human Technology

[LegioCI]

Maybe not a compelling story, but it'd be pretty funny.

I remember a series of SciFi stories where the secret to FTL is actually rediculously simple, and the vast majority of races are able to achieve spacefaring empires with the equivelent of iron-age tech, then most of these empires pretty much stop developing because all their resources go to expanding and defending their sovereignty. However, by some weird accident humanity never actually discovers this super-simple FTL until some might Empire shows up with a fleet of vessals intent on taking over our seemingly primitive, FTL-less planet. They roll out of their ships with old-fashion cavalry and black-powder muskets and are met with automatic rifles, jet aircraft, BVR artillery, etc. Then we take their ship, the scientific community collectively slap their foreheads and the last words are something along the line of "And humanity spent the next two centuries conquering."

[Count Casimir]

Maybe not a compelling story, but it'd be pretty funny.

I remember a series of SciFi stories where the secret to FTL is actually rediculously simple, and the vast majority of races are able to achieve spacefaring empires with the equivelent of iron-age tech, then most of these empires pretty much stop developing because all their resources go to expanding and defending their sovereignty. However, by some weird accident humanity never actually discovers this super-simple FTL until some might Empire shows up with a fleet of vessals intent on taking over our seemingly primitive, FTL-less planet. They roll out of their ships with old-fashion cavalry and black-powder muskets and are met with automatic rifles, jet aircraft, BVR artillery, etc. Then we take their ship, the scientific community collectively slap their foreheads and the last words are something along the line of "And humanity spent the next two centuries conquering."

Bahahahahahahaha! I'd like to read that.

[NOMAD]

Maybe not a compelling story, but it'd be pretty funny.

I remember a series of SciFi stories where the secret to FTL is actually rediculously simple, and the vast majority of races are able to achieve spacefaring empires with the equivelent of iron-age tech, then most of these empires pretty much stop developing because all their resources go to expanding and defending their sovereignty. However, by some weird accident humanity never actually discovers this super-simple FTL until some might Empire shows up with a fleet of vessals intent on taking over our seemingly primitive, FTL-less planet. They roll out of their ships with old-fashion cavalry and black-powder muskets and are met with automatic rifles, jet aircraft, BVR artillery, etc. Then we take their ship, the scientific community collectively slap their foreheads and the last words are something along the line of "And humanity spent the next two centuries conquering."

Bahahahahahahaha! I'd like to read that.

shades of avatar, but in reverse

what about nano-materials, I would have to assume that humans would have advance those beyond the their current applications.

Well currently we have nano-materials the transition was so smooth we didn't even notice it.

true, so true. but I would image that by 150 years their will be more applications and uses ( such as biological medication, more usage in large structures)

[fredgiblet]

@Grayhome

Being of roughly a certain tech level in GURPS does not imply that you have all of the listed technologies, just that that's roughly the right area.

[Paragon]

I'm surprised we haven't developed new or stronger materials by 2160, and I'd think most standardized equipment and products would be manufactured by robots by that point. Just consider how far we've come technologically since 1850. It's certainly make ship building and repair easier! Ah well, such is the space opera future.

I guess my curiosity about this stems from the discussions in the some other threads about what humans would be capable of building and contributing to the war in the short and long term which would inform and have some (at least tangential) effects on Alex's negotiating decisions. What Humans can bring to the Loroi Union table, if you will.

Certainly we'll have better materials 150 years from now than we have today. I just don't predict any "scrith" type game-changing super materials in the near term. Advances will be evolutionary. And many products today are manufactured by robots; it's an economic rather than a revolutionary development.

Humanity is more than a full tech level behind the Loroi and Umiak (who are both on the border between TL10 and TL11). Humanity does not possess any special technologies that the Loroi or Umiak have not yet seen. That's kind of the whole point of the setting: Humanity does not have some natural superiority that makes them instant masters of the universe. If that were the case, all Alex would have to do is show up and present his "we win" card. I don't think that makes for a very compelling story.

Alex does potentially have a trump card -- Humanity appears to possess some kind of telepathic immunity. But that can work against Humanity as easily as it can work for them, from the Loroi point of view. Alex's mission is to somehow secure Humanity's survival, through his own limited means in the situation in which he finds himself. That's what the story is about.

Don't get me wrong. I wasn't trying to convince you to write humans as inherently special or superior. There is a bit of a difference, however between "we can build and deploy several assault fleets under your command in the next two decades", "we can provide technical support an a base of operations", and "we're really only going to be useful as incredibly tall, good looking cannon fodder for ground forces."

Basically, I'm just wondering precisely how screwed our intrepid egocentric little species is in this story.

[Razor One]

Maybe not a compelling story, but it'd be pretty funny.

I remember a series of SciFi stories where the secret to FTL is actually rediculously simple, and the vast majority of races are able to achieve spacefaring empires with the equivelent of iron-age tech, then most of these empires pretty much stop developing because all their resources go to expanding and defending their sovereignty. However, by some weird accident humanity never actually discovers this super-simple FTL until some might Empire shows up with a fleet of vessals intent on taking over our seemingly primitive, FTL-less planet. They roll out of their ships with old-fashion cavalry and black-powder muskets and are met with automatic rifles, jet aircraft, BVR artillery, etc. Then we take their ship, the scientific community collectively slap their foreheads and the last words are something along the line of "And humanity spent the next two centuries conquering."

Bahahahahahahaha! I'd like to read that.

Wish Granted

[Count Casimir]

My hero.

[Cy83r]

Combat engineering exoskeletons seem relatively plausible. Operate tethered to an engineering vehicle for power, replace tires/wheels/tracks and deploy bridges in the field, set up equipment and defenses at base, etc. However, you have to ask why the controller has to be in the machine rather than in relative safety in the truck...an exoskeleton is always going to be bulkier/less capable than something that doesn't have to fit around a human body.

The simple answer is that a human pilot comes pre-equipped with a gyroscope, kinematics, proprioception, and of course the autonomous decision making body known as the human brain. By 2160 humans should at least have power supplies for exoskeletons small enough to be self-portable and only the ridiculously strong models that, say, need to lift half of a tank, ordnance rack, or dropship engine assembly in the field would require the powerplant on their engineering vehicle. And again, this is 2160 we're talking about so we'll probably be seeing combat-orient powered armor designs of varying styles alongside robotic squad members (slave AI or semi-volitional, I don't really know).

There's probably some kind of specialty equipment we can make that would be of value to the Loroi. Sensor technology...we'll probably have had thermal sensors just short of the physical limits in detector sensitivity for quite a while by that point, radar/lidar systems might be similarly on par with what they have...on the receiving side, anyway, they might put a good deal more power into their long range active sensors. Some work to integrate with Loroi systems and we can go into full production. We might have a few things the Loroi haven't come up with due to their relative lack of interest in basic research, but they have existing allies that cover the same gaps.

Have any of the Loroi or Umiak happened upon Fractal Antennae?

[Trantor]

I remember a series of SciFi stories where the secret to FTL is actually rediculously simple, and the vast majority of races are able to achieve spacefaring empires with the equivelent of iron-age tech, then most of these empires pretty much stop developing because all their resources go to expanding and defending their sovereignty. However, by some weird accident humanity never actually discovers this super-simple FTL until some might Empire shows up with a fleet of vessals intent on taking over our seemingly primitive, FTL-less planet. They roll out of their ships with old-fashion cavalry and black-powder muskets and are met with automatic rifles, jet aircraft, BVR artillery, etc. Then we take their ship, the scientific community collectively slap their foreheads and the last words are something along the line of "And humanity spent the next two centuries conquering."

Bahahahahahahaha! I'd like to read that.

Wish Granted

[NOMAD]

why do I have a suddern need of a shoot gun

nice 1 trantor

[Mjolnir]

The simple answer is that a human pilot comes pre-equipped with a gyroscope, kinematics, proprioception, and of course the autonomous decision making body known as the human brain.

Gyroscopes are already dirt cheap, any powered armor will require the same equivalents to kinematics and proprioception that a remotely operated robot would require, and there's no particular reason for the body housing that brain to be stuck in the middle of the pile of machinery being operated by it, and many good reasons not to put it there.

By 2160 humans should at least have power supplies for exoskeletons small enough to be self-portable and only the ridiculously strong models that, say, need to lift half of a tank, ordnance rack, or dropship engine assembly in the field would require the powerplant on their engineering vehicle. And again, this is 2160 we're talking about so we'll probably be seeing combat-orient powered armor designs of varying styles alongside robotic squad members (slave AI or semi-volitional, I don't really know).

More compact power supplies only make exoskeletons look even worse in comparison...the space taken up by a human pilot could instead be devoted to power supply and machinery. The more compact that equipment is, the bigger the price you're paying by carrying a human pilot. An autonomous or remote operated robot will always be able to carry larger power supplies, have a stronger frame and actuators, and be more compact and flexible, as well as being cheaper to develop and simpler to build and construct than something that has to wrap around a fragile human occupant.

Have any of the Loroi or Umiak happened upon Fractal Antennae?

It might not be a Loroi innovation, given their distaste for mathematics and science as careers, but the Loroi Union has Neridi and Pipolsid as members, and they may well have developed such things.

[Grayhome]

If the Human super weapon turns out to be hundreds of squadrons of mecha piloted by a machine or remote operator I am going to be... well, not angry but disappointed.

I will be disappoint.

[Karst45]

Nice little story you have here. At first i was wondering, WTF they know how to hyperspace, fine, but how do they get their ship out in space. but it seem that what is hyperspace in this fiction also act like an "anti-gravity" Ill read the rest later.

[junk]

It'll basically be like Imperial Guard vs Chaos Space Marines.

Depends - the Loroi could potentially fairly rotten at planetary warfare. And while their technology is better, stronger and more workeable in just about every single area of space combat and would give them near impunity there, the lack of large populations, by now long space faring expertise and a bunch of other stuff might lead to actually having inferior designs on the ground. Or if not designs, urban warfare tactics in the very least.

Just the fact we have such large urban landscapes will lead to unique tactics, equipment and mindsets that humans will exhibit. Isn't that important in all cases, but there are moments when you don't want to glass a planet from orbit.

I remember a series of SciFi stories where the secret to FTL is actually rediculously simple, and the vast majority of races are able to achieve spacefaring empires with the equivelent of iron-age tech, then most of these empires pretty much stop developing because all their resources go to expanding and defending their sovereignty. However, by some weird accident humanity never actually discovers this super-simple FTL until some might Empire shows up with a fleet of vessals intent on taking over our seemingly primitive, FTL-less planet. They roll out of their ships with old-fashion cavalry and black-powder muskets and are met with automatic rifles, jet aircraft, BVR artillery, etc. Then we take their ship, the scientific community collectively slap their foreheads and the last words are something along the line of "And humanity spent the next two centuries conquering."

Wasn't it actually a whole large area of technology, which allowed them frictionless flight, FTL flight and a bunch of other things. Essentially all the technology from that discipline was better than "early" standard technology. But it had a certain finite level past which no race could progress but still tried.

Humans on the other hand never got this "better" early technology and as a result pioneered designs which were far worse once - kite vs antigrav airplane for instance - but had a far higher maximum treshold of advancement.

Also I don't remember the next two centuries thing. I remember the ship's captain lamenting the fact that they have suddenly given humanity, the race with insane tech, a way to the stars where everyone is primitive compared to them.


edit

Sorry didn't notice the link to the story.

[LegioCI]

Loroi being bad at gound warfare could be a reason why they have a tendency to just glass the entire population of a world from orbit rather than take it intact. Afterall they're generally only interested in the jump points and probably have hundreds of worlds just as nice as the one their turning into a slowly cooling ball of liquified rock and water vapor?

[Arioch]

Aptitude for ground warfare is not a war-winner. Even the best ground troops are almost useless if your fleet can't hold the space around a planet. The fleet with air/space superiority around a planet can make conventional ground operations almost impossible for the opposing force.

The Loroi are excellent at ground warfare. Loroi partisans and irregulars gave the Umiak occupation forces in the Seren sector fits for more than five years, to the point where the Umiak just gave up and started exterminating them. When the Semoset campaign reclaimed lost territory, the Loroi ground forces were very effective at retaking these worlds. I don't think you have to stare too long at Fireblade before it's clear why the Loroi are very good at infantry combat.

Much of the war to this point has taken place in Loroi territory, so in most cases "glassing" a planet is not an attractive option, as that would mean killing Loroi civilians. The earliest examples (in the current war) of Loroi annihilation raids were in Tithric territory, in the darkest hour of the war, when the Loroi really didn't have a realistic option to invade the Tithric worlds, and certainly didn't care whether the Tithric "traitors" were destroyed. The devastation in the Charred Steppes after the defeat of the Semoset offensive was also fueled by desperation, rationalized to a certain extent by the fact that most of the Steppes systems were already damaged to an extent that made them mostly unusable.

There have been Loroi raids on Umiak border systems, but the Loroi have never done significant fighting on the Umiak side of the line (the Semoset offensive only liberated former Loroi territory). The Loroi are mainly concerned about destroying enemy production infrastructure, and so would probably be much more interested in destroying Umiak populations centers rather than attempting to subjugate them... but such an opportunity has never presented itself in the war to this point.

[junk]

To be honest I don't see Fireblade being any better of a soldier than a soldier of a modern army from a training, tactical physique perspective. One might even argue, that due to the loroi being more or less human sized, the fact that they are quite a fair bit slimmer could point at less strength. That point is moot though, if loroi bio chemistry is just more effecient than human though I guess.

As a species their mindtalking could be quite effective in small unit tactics, but more or less mitigated by heavy use of radio communication modern soldiers, and most definitely future soldiers use.

I'd say even their ground gear would be understandable to modern humans in their use - from CAS, to armour, to various specialty items for infantryelves.

I'd gather if you pulled a soldier out of the 17th century or so, let him get past his shock, he would also fairly quickly understand the use and benefits of our combat doctrines.

It would obviously take him far longer due to a large number of new concepts from air dominance and what it implies to very mobile armour, but given time a person like that could see it.

Now compared to today's humans what concepts or doctrines could a loroi bring to ground warfare which would be just as far reaching. I'd say more or less nothing. And that even doubly so to a future military commander. Obviously all they would be able to do would be much more efficient than we can do, and very likely centered about incredibly high mobility from lance strikes to halo drops whereever.

But on the ground? Even today infantry tends to play a secondary role, and tend to act as guards for armour in urban terrain. Alternatively mechanised infantry exists as a fairly able combatant.

Otherwise all the concepts loroi employ from CAS to who knows what else we certainly do as well. The question is, given the same gear, who can perform it better.

I just can't shake the feeling that humans, with their fairly massive and sprawling population centers, which have been a part of our culture for a long time would have more aptitude for this kind of combat.


That said - why do the Umiak actually control planets? Aren't they essentially so far into cybernetics that they more or less exist in fleet resources only by now?

[Karst45]

You seem to forget the Telekinetic capability of Loroi "unsheathed"

I think that a unarmed unsheathed loroi, with somewhat some imagination, could be a threat to even a tank, and could probably decimate a squad without giving her position away.

also, you cant take those loroi as prisoner for interrogation, it too dangerous, but you can with human (see page 17)

[junk]

You seem to forget the Telekinetic capability of Loroi "unsheathed"

I think that a unarmed unsheathed loroi, with somewhat some imagination, could be a threat to even a tank, and could probably decimate a squad without giving her position away.

As far as we can see this allowed her to push Alex somewhat. I have some doubts it has more aplications than CQC. Though obviously one would need the word of god for that.

[bunnyboy]

due to the loroi being more or less human sized, the fact that they are quite a fair bit slimmer could point at less strength. That point is moot though, if loroi bio chemistry is just more effecient than human though I guess.

Humans are pretty weak. Our closest relative, chimpanzee is much stronger. Muscle filament of chimpanzee can pull 3 times as much weight as human one.

But it's true that we are agressive, innovative and numerous. I bet there aren't any other race, which has developed as many styles to kill his kind than humans.

Now I'm thinking if there are any legendary umiak "mantis masters". That would be cool.