Well of Souls Forums

Krulle wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 13, 2022 11:29 am

Regarding Shoegirl's (Cloud) quick death:
that might be by design too.
If you need to fake that the shuttle is not unmanned, you need someone.
I don't know in how far pain translated into Sanzai and from there into the minds of the other Loroi.
It might be difficult for all Loroi to stay hidden if the Umiak have an operating procedure of inflicting severe pain to early captures, so that others might give their position away through the Sanzai pain they received.

Heck, Earth armies used visible/audible torture to put the other side under time pressure in a hope to help their comrade and end its torture.
And if you want to move and act fast, chances for errors increase.

A quick death for Cloud reduces the risk of the Umiak torturing her to lure the other Loroi out of their positions.

They waited for hours between capture of the shuttle and jump. That's hours that the loroi needed to remain hidden, and quite possibly enough time for the umiak to torture information out of a captive. Quick death is likely a very grim and very real necessity in this situation.

Demarquis wrote: ↑

Sun Jun 12, 2022 8:49 pm

Ok, I'll take your word for it as regards the Umiak, but also bear in mind that just because they are willing to torture and experiment on prisoners, that doesn't automatically mean that they torture or experiment on all prisoners . . .

More from an earlier discussion (Mon, 2014 Mar 11, 05:14:48):

Arioch wrote: ↑

Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:14 am

. . . the Umiak have had Loroi prisoners since the start of the war (25 years by this point), and they have studied them and interrogated them and pulled them apart and put them back together in about as many ways as you can possibly imagine. By this point, the Umiak know almost as much as the Loroi do about how telepathy works -- which to say, not very much. But they also know by this point nearly everything there is to know about Loroi biology, and it's well within the capabilities of Umiak technology to alter or to even grow their own Loroi. They have certainly done so in the past, and many times, as Tempo alludes to on page 56. A number of the refugees recovered from Seren and other recaptured planets had been tampered with or were outright constructs. . .

And another discussion (Sat, 2020 Oct 10, 03:51:15)

Arioch wrote:Basically, imagine the worst body horror movie you've ever seen. Umiak agents (badly) disguised as Loroi, Loroi captives implanted with explosive or biological weapons, and altered or fabricated Loroi meat puppets just designed to demoralize the enemy by pulling "The Thing" moves when no one expects it.

I get it now. That seems to make the choice of who to ally with pretty obvious. That seems to reduce the narrative tension somewhat, but I suppose there is still plenty left from other aspects of the story.

Krulle wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 13, 2022 11:29 am

I don't know in how far pain translated into Sanzai and from there into the minds of the other Loroi.
It might be difficult for all Loroi to stay hidden if the Umiak have an operating procedure of inflicting severe pain to early captures, so that others might give their position away through the Sanzai pain they received.

I don't think physical sensations can be transmitted via sanzai in the sense that if I pinch Talon's arm then Spiral would feel the pinch, too. But, a Loroi can "shout" or "scream" via sanzai, and depending on the intensity of the transmission and proximity of the receiver, this can be painful. Analogous to someone shouting or screaming directly in your ear. So if I slammed Talon's fingers in a door, you might see Spiral jump when Talon goes <<OUCH!!!>> An amplified "shout", one such as Fireblade could produce with her amplifier could even be "deafening" to surrounding Loroi. Like shouting in a microphone with the amp cranked to 11.

Loroi can also sense the presence of others nearby (except humans), even if they can't communicate with them, but I think this connection is strongest with other Loroi. So they certainly would have known the very instant Cloud died, and I think they also would know if she were being tortured, as they would probably "hear" her, unless the Umiak took her far enough out of range. That would make the Loroi very antsy and unable to sit still, I think.

To be honest I think the narrative tension right now is if humanity has any options at all or if they are completely screwed, not whether option A or B is preferable.

"...and I think they also would know if she were being tortured, as they would probably "hear" her..."

That's a possibility I admit I hadn't considered. Still, the rescue option was always on the table.

According to This Post, Cloud was Tempo’s clerk.

From a survival of humanity point of view, the choice between the sides is less about how nice they are, and more about which one you think is going to win. In a war of matching atrocity with atrocity, you really don't want to end up on the losing side.

Umiak: Win, and be enslaved and experimented on until you die; lose, and likely be annihilated by the Loroi.

Loroi: Win, and enjoy accelerated STEM; Lose, and be enslaved and experimented on by the Umiak until you die.

I would side with the Loroi, and fight like Hell to win.

Arioch wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 15, 2022 12:46 am

From a survival of humanity point of view, the choice between the sides is less about how nice they are, and more about which one you think is going to win. In a war of matching atrocity with atrocity, you really don't want to end up on the losing side.

To quote Tyr from Andromeda,

"Where there is life there is hope!"




So long as humanity is still alive they have a fighting chance, not being on the losing side would ensure that.

"From a survival of humanity point of view, the choice between the sides is less about how nice they are, and more about which one you think is going to win. In a war of matching atrocity with atrocity, you really don't want to end up on the losing side."

Right now, you make it look like the Umiak are winning.

Keklas: I think that if you lose against the Umiak, you likely get exterminated.

I think the bug dudes are probably the wrong call. If they are definitely going to win may as well try to side with them, but this hasn't really turned into an unrecoverable situation yet for the space elves. Its a big problem that the bugs managed to penetrate this far into their space undetected, but there hasn't been a major fleet action yet to really settle the outcome, nor honestly does it look like any irreplaceable infrastructure has been lost. So far its mainly been skirmishes.

Arioch wrote: ↑

Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:14 am

. . . the Umiak have had Loroi prisoners since the start of the war (25 years by this point), and they have studied them and interrogated them and pulled them apart and put them back together in about as many ways as you can possibly imagine. By this point, the Umiak know almost as much as the Loroi do about how telepathy works -- which to say, not very much. But they also know by this point nearly everything there is to know about Loroi biology, and it's well within the capabilities of Umiak technology to alter or to even grow their own Loroi. They have certainly done so in the past, and many times, as Tempo alludes to on page 56. A number of the refugees recovered from Seren and other recaptured planets had been tampered with or were outright constructs. . .

This tells me the Umiaks ability to jam Loroi farseers, is entirely Loroi related, and I fully expect Alex and the boarding crew to come across some horror show of captured farseers or their clones in tubes with wires coming out of their heads.

DevilDalek wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 15, 2022 7:23 am

Arioch wrote: ↑

Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:14 am

. . . the Umiak have had Loroi prisoners since the start of the war (25 years by this point), and they have studied them and interrogated them and pulled them apart and put them back together in about as many ways as you can possibly imagine. By this point, the Umiak know almost as much as the Loroi do about how telepathy works -- which to say, not very much. But they also know by this point nearly everything there is to know about Loroi biology, and it's well within the capabilities of Umiak technology to alter or to even grow their own Loroi. They have certainly done so in the past, and many times, as Tempo alludes to on page 56. A number of the refugees recovered from Seren and other recaptured planets had been tampered with or were outright constructs. . .

This tells me the Umiaks ability to jam Loroi farseers, is entirely Loroi related, and I fully expect Alex and the boarding crew to come across some horror show of captured farseers or their clones in tubes with wires coming out of their heads.

How does "the Umiak know almost as much as the Loroi do about how telepathy works -- which to say, not very much" indicate that their alleged "Farsight Jammers" exist, they are based on Loroi biology, and not some other captured/conquered species?

They may have found some Soia-Liron devices that (coincidentally) mimic "Yomaniti's" lotai ability, or some "Yoman-like" species that does the same thing.

It could even be human derived, if they captured one of the other scouts, and reverse engineered our ability to block detection.

Demarquis wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 15, 2022 11:35 pm

It could even be human derived, if they captured one of the other scouts, and reverse engineered our ability to block detection.

Or simply keep a few "Yomans" alive and in captivity. Much simpler. They would not even have to know why they were being kept alive for so long.

I see a thread entitled "Fan Theories on How the Umiak can hide from the farseers" has already been started  HERE .

What's the policy on necro'ing old threads around here/

I'll just point out the obvious, merely placing a human in a ship would do nothing to hide the entire ship. The entire crew would have to be human, and I don't think the Umiak have had the time to enslave the thousands that would be needed to crew an entire invasion. And how could they trust such an army?

Demarquis wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 16, 2022 2:15 am

What's the policy on necro'ing old threads around here/

I don't have a problem with it, if you are adding to the discussion, and not just "bumping" the thread.

I would like to draw attention to the caste thing going on in the background. Cloud has been treated as a nonperson for the entire story. It's all in the body language cues. Cloud is often pictured looking down. She's also often depicted standing or walking apart from other Loroi (except for handing over items), moreso than any other member of the cast. Even during the introductions in 162, Cloud is distant. Everyone else has a cast-rank-name + meaning in this scene, except [Paset] Cloud who is introduced as 'this one'. The only other Loroi in the exact same green jumpsuit (solid green, black collar, with grey wing design on chest) in 100 exhibits similar mannerisms. I propose that this avoidance and deferral exceeds that expected by military courtesy and may only be explained by caste culture and an expectation of being perfectly invisible.

Further, I suspect that Cloud was slated for death since touching the Historian flowerpot in 65, given Loroi paranoia surrounding alien artifacts (especially those they can't read), although I have no evidence besides my gut feeling. This chapter hit hard, and thank you all so much for drawing attention to the other little details (like Beryl's readied weapon, Jardin possibly in Cloud's suit, and the krack before the boarding began).