Jack wrote:On simulating plume rocket engine and exhaust above it was actually written post.
I have no idea what you think this sentence means, but it is not a valid counter to my own statements about exhaust plumes. There are a handful of plume characteristics that are relevant for determining the thrust that was provided in the creation of the plume, and any attempt to disguise one set of characteristics to look like another set is almost guaranteed to fail, and becomes more likely to fail the closer the decoy gets to it's target.
joestej wrote:Either way, since 25% of this thread is now nothing but our most recent argument, I'd say it's safe to move on to a new line of questioning...
It is quite obvious that Kikitik-27 is not a conventional Umiak commander, what with his habit of withdrawing rather than charging recklessly to his doom, etc. Even the Loroi have noticed. So my question is two-fold: how does Umiak Command view/deal with commanders like Kikitik who 'go against the grain', and is there a specific reason Kikitik is so different from other Umiak?
I imagine that they're fine with anything as long as it seems efficient. As for the source of the differences, I've been assuming that Kikitik is a member of the smartest of the three Umiak sub-species, while most commanders are a member of the middle-of-the-road sub-species.
Jack wrote:Mr Bojangles wrote:
The Umiak purposely use torpedoes as decoys. They manufacture and launch them in massive numbers to overwhelm Loroi point defenses so that their own ships can close in with their own weapons, which have a shorter range than their Loroi equivalents. This is canon; an established fact of the Outsider universe. I am not telling you my theory of how the Umiak use their torpedoes - this is how things are.
Decoys distracted the long-range guns Loroi. Torpedoes distract the medium-range and short-range weapons. At Loroi ships have different weapons range.
Loroi long-range guns do not shoot for torpedoes. And mechanism as umiak torpedo prevent their fire in the comic was not disclosed. The existing description of the battle pulse cannon hit on umiak ships all the time, in spite of the torpedo. Maybe you can explain the physical mechanism as a torpedo prevent shooting from long-range weapons?
The Loroi apparently believe that if they wait for the torpedoes to enter medium-range before they start shooting at them, then the torpedoes will reach the Loroi ships before being destroyed. When you consider that Loroi strike-group ships are faster than Umiak ships (and thus can simply avoid anything larger than a destroyer if needed; the slower Loroi ships aren't used for strike groups for this very reason), but slower than Umiak torpedoes, this seems like a realistic possibility. At any rate, the Insider says:
In either case, a hit from effective range can have catastrophic effects against almost any target.
Note that "effective range" is not kinetic-kill range, but instead much larger. Effective range can still be "knife fight" range if the torpedo simply explodes, but it can be short (or possibly even medium) range if the torpedo has a particle or laser beam warhead rigged to use the torpedo's explosion as a power source, making it much more dangerous for a single torpedo to enter short-range than for a single Umiak small-craft to enter short-range. Wintertide apparently sustained multiple hits from something, presumably the weapons of the destroyers that attacked the strike group, and survived long enough to begin damage-control operations. An equal number of torpedo strikes would likely have been much more fatal.
Another factor in the Umiak use of torpedoes is that the Umiak don't use fighters. Umiak "blister" torpedoes seem to be allocated to this role, as the "Rockeye" uses a swarm of Kinetic-kill submunitions (bomber/assault fighter replacement) and the "Scatter Pack" uses a swarm of micro-short range submunitions (replacement for anti-smallcraft fighters).
Jack wrote:Mr Bojangles wrote:
Torpedoes being defeated is an entirely expected outcome by both Loroi and Umiak. The reason the Loroi don't use torpedoes more often is that they don't have the industrial capacity to make them a cost-efficient weapon. The Umiak are unusual in the fact that they actually make wide use of torpedoes. Again, this is Outsider canon.
For firing long-range need an early warning system, long-range guidance system. Looking themselves launchers that can form dense enough for a volley of penetration of the enemy defense. Looking own torpedoes, large, heavy and expensive. All these systems require more resources to its development and production, take place on the ship, reducing its firepower in the battle in the middle and low range.
The number of torpedoes that any particular ship carries will usually be low enough that it will not significantly reduce the performance of the ship carrying them. This is particularly true during the actual attack-runs, when many ships will deploy all of their torpedoes on the way towards their target. The ships that carry large numbers of torpedoes will tend to either be expected to launch all of them very early in the battle, or will be expected to survive for multiple attack-runs despite not launching all of their torpedoes at the first chance (which of these is the case will depend on the individual situation).
Torpedo launchers will usually not be as expensive, heavy, etc., as an ordinary Umiak weapon. Some Umiak vessels don't even use launchers, but instead just strap the torpedoes to the outside of the ship, and "drop" them when they want the torpedoes to attack.
Jack wrote:For shooting at 400 Mm do not need long-range torpedoes, the distance is medium-range torpedoes.
The reason to use long-range torpedoes in any given situation instead of just medium-range torpedoes is that long-range torpedoes can accelerate longer, and thus cover the distance faster. The exact usage of the different ranges and warheads of the torpedoes will depend on the tactical and strategic doctrine being followed.
Jack wrote:Of course, it is possible that the technical characteristics of weapons in the comic wrong.
If you're talking about the way that the comic
looks, then yes, it's wrong. Arioch has said that the distances in the comic are modified for the sake of making things look more interesting. The actual data is in the "Insider", which is text instead of comics.
Jack wrote:Mr Bojangles wrote:
I'm afraid I don't understand most of your last statement. The combat ranges of these ships are not short; they're the better part of a light-second. Even when these ships get "close," more often then not, they're still hundreds to thousands of kilometers apart. Given the inverse square law, an ECM suite that could pump out so much energy to effectively jam enemy ships is actually going to pose a threat to your own ship(s).
The battle on the course starting long-range torpedo and gunboats can go for tens of light-seconds, according to the characteristics of weapons.
Distance is not important because it is important for electronic warfare ratio of the interference level to the level of the signal.
Are you trying to say that distance isn't important for electronic warfare weapons because their signals can travel much further than the combat happens over? If so, then you're wrong. The ECM (electronic counter measures) needs to have a strong-enough signal to confuse the enemy sensors. To confuse the enemy sensors about a drive plume you need to start with a drive plume that has the correct characteristics, and make it stronger. Drive plumes are so long that you will need ECM devices scattered across hundreds, or thousands, or millions of miles. Every time that you adjust the direction that you are thrusting along, you will need ECM devices scattered along
that drive plume as well. Even for the Umiak, this isn't practical, because you need to cover far too much of a volume with your ECM devices. Also, the ECM devices need to be very small, so that the enemy can't see them at a long distance, AND they need to be highly armored so that the drive plume doesn't destroy them (the higher the thrust and efficiency of an engine, the more destructive it's drive plume), both of which work against each other.
You can try just jamming the enemy sensors instead, but every time that you fail to jam them they'll be able to get a clear view of your drive plume. Over short distances you can jam them if you try, but Loroi ships maneuver fast enough that at 1 light-second of distance from you, they can have moved a full light-second before your jamming signal reached them, which means that focused jamming systems only have a little bit more range than actual laser weapons. Your enemy will usually start on the other side of the star-system from you, so they'll have determined that you're trying to disguise your drive-plumes long before your decoys are useful.
Jack wrote:Mr Bojangles wrote:
The Umiak aren't stupid; far from. They're just fighting the war to their strengths, which is what any warring nation would do. The Loroi have Farsense; the Umiak have what can best be described as a horrifying industrial capacity.
In addition to the quality of the efficiency of its use there. Throw into the fire difficult and expensive starships in the presence of long-range torpedoes and gunboats to allow mother ships do not enter the zone of fire of the enemy - not rational in general.
Loroi strike-group warships are much faster than most Umiak ships. If you try to just use motherships, torpedoes, & gunboats then the Loroi will modify their own practices accordingly, focusing on even faster ships (that can outrun even your gunboats), with strong anti-torpedo defenses (eliminating the only thing you have that can outrun them), and a few anti-capital-ship guns to destroy the motherships. The gunboats will quickly be stranded, at which point the Loroi can simply destroy them from long-range at their leisure, with no risk of the gunboats leaving the star system.
By having a mixture of attack options, the Umiak can prevent the Loroi from using their superior technology to it's maximum advantage, by forcing the Loroi to have a variety of ship types, most of which will be slow enough for the gunboats to distract them for a while.
Jack wrote:Arioch wrote:
Kikitik would have been a heavy captain and quincunx squadron commander... subsequently promoted to division commander and eventually relegated to bivouac duty... Kikitik's division... that triple-size division with 10 superheavies is no suicide force.
Where can I read the materials of the structure of the armed forces Umiak?
The information available is in the forums, and the Insider (a part of the site).