MoO II races and their parallels in Outsider

[Arent]

On 10. December, the Master of Magic remake is published & I'll try that. Of course, it's no space game & low budget, but I wasn't very happy with the last civ iterations, either.

I'll try it as well. Hopefully, it's as good as the original.

To be honest, the original wasn't well balanced. But it was certainly fun.

Of course, it's no space game & low budget, but I wasn't very happy with the last civ iterations, either.

To be quite frank, the last Civilization game was the fourth one. Afterwards, we had two spinoffs. You see, even the previous two spinoffs actually labeled as such, Call to Power 1+2, were far closer to the original concept than the 5th or 6th. Not to mention Alpha Centauri, of course.

Yes, well, old world and Humankind weren't really there either. Yes, I still have Alpha Centauri. But I can't convince my friends at our yearly LAN parties to play it.

[Arioch]

On 10. December, the Master of Magic remake is published & I'll try that. Of course, it's no space game & low budget, but I wasn't very happy with the last civ iterations, either.

Perhaps ironically, the screenshots of the MoM remake look almost exactly like the Age of Wonders series, which was essentially a spiritual successor to MoM. The series is quite good, and AoWII and onward have multiplayer. (AoWI is still my favorite, because it had the best campaign mode.)

I loved MoM, but it was so buggy that it was difficult to actually play all the way through a single game. All the SimTex titles had bug problems, but MoM was the worst. And that was back before the internet when they had to mail you a floppy disk to release a patch.

To be quite frank, the last Civilization game was the fourth one. Afterwards, we had two spinoffs. You see, even the previous two spinoffs actually labeled as such, Call to Power 1+2, were far closer to the original concept than the 5th or 6th. Not to mention Alpha Centauri, of course.

By that logic, the last Civilization game was Civilization II, since 3 and 4 were as different from the original as 5 and 6 were different from 4. 5 and 6 each have their problems, but so did 4... I find them to be very playable games, especially with all of the expansions. For those who prefer a game that never changes, luckily, you can still play whatever version floats your boat.

[Cthulhu]

By that logic, the last Civilization game was Civilization II, since 3 and 4 were as different from the original as 5 and 6 were different from 4. 5 and 6 each have their problems, but so did 4... I find them to be very playable games, especially with all of the expansions. For those who prefer a game that never changes, luckily, you can still play whatever version floats your boat.

You are intentionally overstretching the logic of my argument. The newest Civ games aren't necessary bad, well, except for the ugly cartoonified graphics. What I meant was that the gap between the 4th and 5th was far too large, breaking the continuity. Before that, you could've even skipped a title, and still understand the game. There were advancements, improvements and so on, but at the core, it was still the same concept. The third wasn't that different from the second, on the contrary, it was somewhat of a downgrade without the expansions. But with the 5th came the independent city-states, hex-fields, then, all those district mechanics and a myriad of cultural bonuses, it felt to be a wholly different game or even genre. Perhaps a weird crossing of RTS or Age of Wonders and Civ. Well, then why not play MOM or Age of Wonders directly? Hybrids may be interesting, but for me, those games failed at being Civ and at introducing something new.

[Arioch]

Hybrids may be interesting, but for me, those games failed at being Civ and at introducing something new.

Civ 4 was pre-Steam and so I don't have stats on how long I played it, but I have almost 2000 hours in Civ 5 and a slightly lesser amount in Civ 6, and I suspect either number is much higher than it was for Civ 4. It's my opinion that "unstacking" armies and cities were significant and positive additions to the series. I think the "eurekas" for science was also a really nice addition.

I was less of a fan of the changes to civics and happiness/health. There's an awful lot, especially in Civ 6, that's almost totally opaque to the player, which (IMO) pretty much by definition means that it is not a positive thing for gameplay. I would like it if and when Civ 7 eventually rolls around (which I don't expect to be anytime soon) that they take the infrastructure model either back to it roots, or else in a new direction.

But really, I'd rather Firaxis focus on something new (or else more XCOM... though I have little interest in the Marvel XCOM thing that's going on now). There's a huge empty place in my soul left by the unfulfilled potential of both Beyond Earth and Side Meier's Starships!. A Firaxis version of Master of Orion or Master of Magic could be very interesting.

[Arent]

Civ 4 was pre-Steam and so I don't have stats on how long I played it, but I have almost 2000 hours in Civ 5 and a slightly lesser amount in Civ 6, and I suspect either number is much higher than it was for Civ 4. It's my opinion that "unstacking" armies and cities were significant and positive additions to the series. I think the "eurekas" for science was also a really nice addition.

Tech trade in earlier civs was a huge incentive to play civ with my friends in LAN. Giving your brother iron working so he could fend off an attack by a computer was just a nice interaction. Deciding who would invent which direction & then trade, as well. Right now, playing civ 6 in LAN is mostly playing "alongside" each other.

The eurekas are the exact same in every single game. If they had at least hidden & randomized them. But you knew *beforehand* which Eurekas you had to fulfill, which meant you were not building ships to explore the world or building mines to build a powerful economy but to "fulfill eureka xy". Which is not even remotely as satisfying.

I was less of a fan of the changes to civics and happiness/health. There's an awful lot, especially in Civ 6, that's almost totally opaque to the player, which (IMO) pretty much by definition means that it is not a positive thing for gameplay. I would like it if and when Civ 7 eventually rolls around (which I don't expect to be anytime soon) that they take the infrastructure model either back to it roots, or else in a new direction.

The district stuff turned civ into a puzzle game. Even worse were the "theming bonuses" of museums. Honestly, I'm *ignoring* large parts of the game mechanics.

Btw., why can't I still get no custom civ option? After dozens of DLCs? Even Master of Magic will allow me to create my very own sorcery wizard & choosing my barbarians or draconians. Why not civ?

There's a huge empty place in my soul left by the unfulfilled potential of both Beyond Earth and Side Meier's Starships!. A Firaxis version of Master of Orion or Master of Magic could be very interesting.

Beyond Earth was fine for me. Of course it wasn't as deep as Alpha Centauri, but it was ok. I like it.

[Arioch]

Tech trade in earlier civs was a huge incentive to play civ with my friends in LAN. Giving your brother iron working so he could fend off an attack by a computer was just a nice interaction. Deciding who would invent which direction & then trade, as well. Right now, playing civ 6 in LAN is mostly playing "alongside" each other.

The problem with tech trading is that, at least on higher difficulties, since you're behind in tech all the time, you have to choose technologies based on what nobody else has so you can trade it for other techs, rather than what researching what you yourself most want or need. This is a bit wonky from a meta perspective, but even if it wasn't, the UI isn't built for it; having to talk to every other civilization every single time you choose a tech to find out what they don't have is quite tedious.

Btw., why can't I still get no custom civ option? After dozens of DLCs? Even Master of Magic will allow me to create my very own sorcery wizard & choosing my barbarians or draconians. Why not civ?

I'm not sure that custom factions work thematically in a historical setting, but regardless I think mechanically it's hard to do if the game isn't built for it in the start. The ideal case is one like Master of Magic/Age of Wonders where you're just mixing and matching spells and attributes anyway in the normal case. Being able to choose all the strongest unique units and abilities in Civ VI would just be a mass, especially for multiplayer. Even in a case like Master of Orion 2 where all the advantages and disadvantages were broken out with varying point costs, it was still extremely unbalanced.

There's a huge empty place in my soul left by the unfulfilled potential of both Beyond Earth and Side Meier's Starships!. A Firaxis version of Master of Orion or Master of Magic could be very interesting.

Beyond Earth was fine for me. Of course it wasn't as deep as Alpha Centauri, but it was ok. I like it.

I thought it was okay but playable, but then the Rising Tide expansion made it demonstrably worse, in my opinion. Making water tiles settleable is almost ALWAYS a bad idea... it just destroys the interesting limitations of terrain.

[Arent]

The problem with tech trading is that, at least on higher difficulties, since you're behind in tech all the time, you have to choose technologies based on what nobody else has so you can trade it for other techs, rather than what researching what you yourself most want or need. This is a bit wonky from a meta perspective, but even if it wasn't, the UI isn't built for it; having to talk to every other civilization every single time you choose a tech to find out what they don't have is quite tedious.

Just make AIs on higher difficulties refuse to trade tech with humans (But trade tech with each other). I observed that behavior in Moo2 and Alpha Centauri. They only trade if you offer *much* better tech against a cheap tech.

I'm not sure that custom factions work thematically in a historical setting, but regardless I think mechanically it's hard to do if the game isn't built for it in the start. The ideal case is one like Master of Magic/Age of Wonders where you're just mixing and matching spells and attributes anyway in the normal case. Being able to choose all the strongest unique units and abilities in Civ VI would just be a mass, especially for multiplayer. Even in a case like Master of Orion 2 where all the advantages and disadvantages were broken out with varying point costs, it was still extremely unbalanced.

Simply make it optional, as all other "game modes" in the later seasons pass. Zombies? Secret societies?

I thought it was okay but playable, but then the Rising Tide expansion made it demonstrably worse, in my opinion. Making water tiles settleable is almost ALWAYS a bad idea... it just destroys the interesting limitations of terrain.

My major gripe was the bland factions. All of them were "good" and "idealistic". There was no evil hive, no fundamentalist believers and the 'good' factions had no negative traits whatsoever.

Since me and my brother always argue about land if we happen to be on the same continent, having one on the water is the ideal solution

[Cthulhu]

Civ 4 was pre-Steam and so I don't have stats on how long I played it, but I have almost 2000 hours in Civ 5 and a slightly lesser amount in Civ 6, and I suspect either number is much higher than it was for Civ 4. It's my opinion that "unstacking" armies and cities were significant and positive additions to the series. I think the "eurekas" for science was also a really nice addition.

I think my playtime in Civ4 would exceed 4000.

Actually, a rather interesting solution for those "doomstacks" was already developed in Call for Power. You could only fit 9 units in a tile, and they would all enter combat as a group, lined up as melee and ranged units. So, no more one-on-one duels, or those ridiculous archers which can shoot over several kilometers.

The eurekas were an incredible "cheesification" of the research system. On the one hand, you couldn't really skip them, but on the other, the ability to see their requirements in advance made this mechanic far too meta. I think that the system of giving a free tech as a reward for some discoveries, or the already present quests were plenty enough. Why turn everything into a quest? This is not an RPG!

I was less of a fan of the changes to civics and happiness/health. There's an awful lot, especially in Civ 6, that's almost totally opaque to the player, which (IMO) pretty much by definition means that it is not a positive thing for gameplay. I would like it if and when Civ 7 eventually rolls around (which I don't expect to be anytime soon) that they take the infrastructure model either back to it roots, or else in a new direction.

The system of mixing and matching civics to form a customized government form was already good enough. But splitting this into a myriad of cultural advanced with minuscule effects simply made it utterly confusing. Something like a 15% cost reduction of a single unit? Really?

But really, I'd rather Firaxis focus on something new (or else more XCOM... though I have little interest in the Marvel XCOM thing that's going on now). There's a huge empty place in my soul left by the unfulfilled potential of both Beyond Earth and Side Meier's Starships!. A Firaxis version of Master of Orion or Master of Magic could be very interesting.

"Starships" was weird, a bit too much for a mobile game, but far too lackluster for a full game. "Beyond Earth", on the other hand, had severe balancing issues. Both weren't really worthy of bearing the title of "Sid Meier's", though.

[Arioch]

"Starships" was weird, a bit too much for a mobile game, but far too lackluster for a full game. "Beyond Earth", on the other hand, had severe balancing issues. Both weren't really worthy of bearing the title of "Sid Meier's", though.

At least he was actually the designer of Starships, if I'm not mistaken. I think he only does "little games" now like Starships and Ace Patrol. The last game that Meier actually designed himself that I played and thought was any good was Civilization itself, and that was more than 30 years ago. I've heard that Gettyburg and Sim Golf are supposed to be good, but I never played them.

The first iteration of a new Civilization game is always a mess in terms of balancing, and requires an expansion or two to fix, which is why it was a deal-breaker when the Rising Tide expansion made it worse.

[Keklas Rekobah]

I have always thought of the Evon as Drow-equivalents, even though my Evon emperors have always been named "Graz'zt".

[Cthulhu]

At least he was actually the designer of Starships, if I'm not mistaken. I think he only does "little games" now like Starships and Ace Patrol. The last game that Meier actually designed himself that I played and thought was any good was Civilization itself, and that was more than 30 years ago. I've heard that Gettyburg and Sim Golf are supposed to be good, but I never played them.

Pirates! was very good as well. Even the remake.

The first iteration of a new Civilization game is always a mess in terms of balancing, and requires an expansion or two to fix, which is why it was a deal-breaker when the Rising Tide expansion made it worse.

I didn't find the expansion to be too bad, actually. At least they honestly tried to mitigate the various shortcomings and the severe balancing issues. It wasn't completely successful, though.

[Arioch]

At least he was actually the designer of Starships, if I'm not mistaken. I think he only does "little games" now like Starships and Ace Patrol. The last game that Meier actually designed himself that I played and thought was any good was Civilization itself, and that was more than 30 years ago. I've heard that Gettyburg and Sim Golf are supposed to be good, but I never played them.

Pirates! was very good as well. Even the remake.

Pirates! was 4 years earlier than Civilization. The 2004 remake was good, but I don't think Sid had much to do with that.

[gaerzi]

I'm not sure that custom factions work thematically in a historical setting, but regardless I think mechanically it's hard to do if the game isn't built for it in the start.

Civ games go through too much history to truly be historical. Most of the factions are just beyond silly for a 4000 BC start.

You are intentionally overstretching the logic of my argument. The newest Civ games aren't necessary bad, well, except for the ugly cartoonified graphics.

Civ6, I agree the art style looks like what you'd find in some generic soulless mobile game app and that's terrible, but I wouldn't describe Civ5's art style as cartoony.

[Turrosh Mak]

I played MoM back in 1995 and still have the discs and the 400+ page player guide. When I heard Slytherin was remaking MoM, I discovered Steam had not only the original MoM v1.31, but a bundle containing it, the player made "Community patch", Servey's "Caster of Magic" revamp, and a further "Caster of Magic for Windows" revamp, all for 11 bucks. So, I bought that while I waited for the new version.

1.31 played just as slow as I remember. I was nearly 40 turns in before I made my second city (dark elf growth rate is abysmal in 1.3.1) Then the AI showed up, took my capital and the game was over. FUUUUUU... ok, Game 2 was High Men on the main plane (paladins - need I say more?). The additional growth really helped. It turned into a rout by turn 100.

Community patch v5.06(?) was a little better but still unchallenging once I got off the ground.

Caster of Magic for Windows v1.4.5 - now this was more like it. Much faster game play (having 2 settlers at game start really helps in this regard). One thing I noticed; the AI is reluctant to pop towers until the player does, so use this to your advantage.

All in all, the bundle was worth the $11 just to avoid dicking around with installation from floppies and setting up dosbox. Sadly, my MoM itch has been scratched now, so purchasing the Slytherin remake may be a while. Now I'm starting to feel the pull of X-wing/Tie Fighter, or maybe MechWarrior 2, hell even Lemmings is starting to sound fun again (I have a closet full of games from the 90s..ooh gold box Dnd)

[Arent]

I played MoM back in 1995 and still have the discs and the 400+ page player guide. When I heard Slytherin was remaking MoM, I discovered Steam had not only the original MoM v1.31, but a bundle containing it, the player made "Community patch", Servey's "Caster of Magic" revamp, and a further "Caster of Magic for Windows" revamp, all for 11 bucks. So, I bought that while I waited for the new version.

1.31 played just as slow as I remember. I was nearly 40 turns in before I made my second city (dark elf growth rate is abysmal in 1.3.1) Then the AI showed up, took my capital and the game was over. FUUUUUU... ok, Game 2 was High Men on the main plane (paladins - need I say more?). The additional growth really helped. It turned into a rout by turn 100.

Community patch v5.06(?) was a little better but still unchallenging once I got off the ground.

Caster of Magic for Windows v1.4.5 - now this was more like it. Much faster game play (having 2 settlers at game start really helps in this regard). One thing I noticed; the AI is reluctant to pop towers until the player does, so use this to your advantage.

All in all, the bundle was worth the $11 just to avoid dicking around with installation from floppies and setting up dosbox. Sadly, my MoM itch has been scratched now, so purchasing the Slytherin remake may be a while. Now I'm starting to feel the pull of X-wing/Tie Fighter, or maybe MechWarrior 2, hell even Lemmings is starting to sound fun again (I have a closet full of games from the 90s..ooh gold box Dnd)

Master of Magic Remake will be out tomorrow on GoG. The graphics seem nice & the rules of the game are apparently mostly the same. I'll definitely buy it & take a look.

[nweismuller]

Getting back to the Early Empire game, do your logs indicate how many turns it ran or your approximate population by the end? Were you running the largest galaxy size?

[Arioch]

Getting back to the Early Empire game, do your logs indicate how many turns it ran or your approximate population by the end? Were you running the largest galaxy size?

It was the largest galaxy size. The ending date was 3523.7, which I guess is 237 turns. There is no information on population sizes.