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How can the Loroi win? 
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Post Re: How can the Loroi win?
GeoModder wrote:
Arent wrote:
Krulle wrote:
On the other side, however, it is suspicious that there was a kind of virus on board the Bellarmine & when they came across the battle between Loroi and Umiak a mysterious ship "happened" to show up and attack the Bellarmine. If that attack was deliberate, the attacker had to know who humans are & that they would show up in that system. The first suspect who might have had that knowledge would be the Historians.


AFAWK, there wasn't a virus aboard Bellarmine.
I thought the Historian Construct simply intruded upon salvaged data systems from Bellarmine's wreck.


https://well-of-souls.com/outsider/outsider155.html

"This construct has been in the data banks aboard your ship."

-> I'm not exactly sure how this is meant. Maybe they also mean the Loroi ship. I don't exactly know.


Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:37 pm
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Post Re: How can the Loroi win?
The Bellarmine wasn't pulverized, and its data-systems aren't "power-off" intrusion protected, so it may have been aboard previously, though if that was the case it doesn't make sense that the same construct that's aboard the Barsam courier and is in the flowerpot is also the one that was aboard the Bellarmine, otherwise referring to itself as "this construct" doesn't make sense,

or

the construct snuck aboard bellarmine systems while the Loroi were searching it.


Thu Sep 26, 2019 11:26 pm
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Post Re: How can the Loroi win?
Or even just "The Loroi grabbed some of the data banks from the Bellarmine before the pulverized it." Or it might have just been referring to that stack of salvaged hard drives.


Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:03 am
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Post Re: How can the Loroi win?
One thing we aren't sure of yet is what the two side have built up since the last major offensive. The War Cruiser seems to be one of the Loroi's newest cruiser types, and its seems to be half the firepower of the battlecruisers and more than the heavy cruisers. Their Wave Loom forces seem to have heavily reduces unless there are ship classes missing from the Insider pages on the matter. If that page is the entire forces composition, they have only two Wave Loom armed ships, and one of them (Vortex) is falling back to support a nearby Strike Group, while the other is the Emperor's flagship.

The Umiak appear to have better screens than the Loroi, appear to have superior numbers of ships with larger numbers of shorter ranged, but relatively heavy plasma focuses. The Loroi's Pulse Cannons counter that somewhat, but their ships have relatively few of these in twin turret mounts with them mostly fielded on cruiser hulls, and having less of them on battleship hulls The larger ships are probably designed for close in brawling with the enemy, so they can afford to be armed with heavy blaster weapons instead, but with the pulse cannons there to soften up the enemy as they approach.

However, given the Umiak's use of Gunboats, missile platforms, and some superheavy units, its would seem reasonable for the Loroi to fit their fleets out with more long range firepower. Not only more Pulse Cannons, to snipe Gunboats before they get into range of their own weapons, but also the Wave Looms to take out the superheavy units, or if there is a amount of Area of Effect for that weapon, uses them to clear out groups of Gunboats as they are on the approach.


Fri Sep 27, 2019 3:00 am
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Post Re: How can the Loroi win?
Ithekro wrote:
One thing we aren't sure of yet is what the two side have built up since the last major offensive. The War Cruiser seems to be one of the Loroi's newest cruiser types, and its seems to be half the firepower of the battlecruisers and more than the heavy cruisers. Their Wave Loom forces seem to have heavily reduces unless there are ship classes missing from the Insider pages on the matter. If that page is the entire forces composition, they have only two Wave Loom armed ships, and one of them (Vortex) is falling back to support a nearby Strike Group, while the other is the Emperor's flagship.

The Umiak appear to have better screens than the Loroi, appear to have superior numbers of ships with larger numbers of shorter ranged, but relatively heavy plasma focuses. The Loroi's Pulse Cannons counter that somewhat, but their ships have relatively few of these in twin turret mounts with them mostly fielded on cruiser hulls, and having less of them on battleship hulls The larger ships are probably designed for close in brawling with the enemy, so they can afford to be armed with heavy blaster weapons instead, but with the pulse cannons there to soften up the enemy as they approach.

However, given the Umiak's use of Gunboats, missile platforms, and some superheavy units, its would seem reasonable for the Loroi to fit their fleets out with more long range firepower. Not only more Pulse Cannons, to snipe Gunboats before they get into range of their own weapons, but also the Wave Looms to take out the superheavy units, or if there is a amount of Area of Effect for that weapon, uses them to clear out groups of Gunboats as they are on the approach.


Heavy and Superheavy units are uncommon. Smaller ships are ubiquitous, and likelier to be used in the attrition raids that have become SOP. Also, the Wave loom imposes some harsh penalties on the ships that use it.


Fri Sep 27, 2019 7:35 am
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Post Re: How can the Loroi win?
Thats what i was talking about, you get loroi by surprise, deal giant amount of damage to unpreapared loroi, and pull them back when loroi reequip their ships with wave loom.
You achived 3 things:

1. Dealt giant amount of damage with battleships.

2. Dealt giant amount of damage with your khalkha fleets that went into loroi territory under cover from battleships.

3. Now loroi need to have wave loom in every squadron, that make their ships more espensive without significant increase of firepower against standard umiak fleets.


Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:31 am
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Post Re: How can the Loroi win?
I am under the impression the Wave Loom has somewhat of a Area of Effect in where its fired. Such a thing would be useful in taking out formations of gunboats. Especially if the newer model in the Emperor's flagship has dealt with at least some of the major drawbacks of the Wave Looms of the Vortex era (~25 years ago). And improved model should be able to fire more efficiently. Perhaps more often, with greater power/damage, or with a greater area of damage.

Mind you I'm thinking Wave Motion Gun (Space Battleship Yamato) as the example rather than the Macross Cannon (Macross), or Lightning Cannon (Babylon 5/Crusade).

The older Vortex era one would be more Yamato like.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vV0x4XHdbyc
(Note: They were aiming at the enemy base....they underestimated how powerful the weapon is...by a lot.)

The newer one? Andromeda like?
https://imgur.com/gallery/yVaVW/comment/987608861
(Note: I don't think they underestimated here, but they could target lock enemy ships with that spread to avoid friendlies...while also shooting THROUGH a moon. They vaporized the floating continent in the background in this shot as well)


Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:19 pm
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Post Re: How can the Loroi win?
Would it be fair to say this is similar to much of the wars in the last hundred years of present earth history where one or more involved party is fighting in a modern war in an outdated style? Yeah, yeah: aliens with magic s advance even Jardin is going "Magic," but hear me out.

Much of the first World War was all guts and glory from the heads of state, but most of the tactics that helped the European powers come to their level of power was the fact they were A.) using weapons designed to turn such tactics into bloodbaths such as machineguns, tanks, and poisoned gas; and B.) up until that point, most of their conflicts had been tween them (a highly developed people in technology, especially warfare) against a people that had been conquered or about to be conquered that lacked that tech edge. Now they were doing it on eachother, thus you had large areas of "no man's land" and victory counted in feet at times.

World War Two, much of the tech was now more improved, namly tanks. This was to the point that while a good chunk of cavalry units were actually men on horseback. The tanks, which were a minor support at best and just as fast as a fit and kitted soldier jogging, were now much faster, and had bigger and better guns. Now they were the terror every soldier learns to fear.

Even then you had major failings on on the armies that had a head start. Blitzkrieg is all about speed and surprise, and once you are forced to slow down you are screwed. Its like a cavalry heavy or speed heavy army in Warhammer Fantasy, Age of Sigmar, or 40k. The moment you can't keep moving you are stuck.

The other big risk is getting too far spreadout for proper supplies to get to you. The practitioners of Blitzrige may have had a mechanized cavalry, they were still using horses and wagons to carry much of the supplies. The Panzers were some of the most impressive tanks in history, but even they could only run so far on fumes and a swift kick from a jackboot.

Korea and Vietnam had a number of factors that didn't do the loosing side well. The US may have had a technology edge, they often lacked the tenacity and local knowledge of the location to use it effective. This made gorilla fighting all the more a viable action as playing fair is never in any proper rulebook. Things like the WW2 German Bouncing Betty and the infamous pungi sticks were simple and easy to get or make respectivly, and there was always another booby trap to get.

Korea, MaCarthur in his arrogance underestimated the number difference China would bring to the table.

Vietnam, the tech didn't always work. The M-16, one of the most lauded assault rifles, was a mess when it first showed up. What worked in controlled facilities and temperate climates did not work in Tropics. The fact they downgraded the powder quality before they were shipped out meant you also had weapons that james and gunked up more times than bot. Later models would include features like burst fire and quick clean.

Other failures are just, egh. Bottom plating for troop transports were so weak, soldiers prefered riding on top incase of land minds. Body armor was weak, heavy, and hot, and most either went without or cut it up so they didn't bake in the climate.

And with Irage 2, Samalia, Sudan, and a number of other armed conflicts in my time. The powers to be underestimate the enemy on the ground, don't care to send in the proper amounts of soldiers, gear, and equipment, and tell them to win anyways.

I still shudder at a couple of Afghanistan and Iraq veteran friends "kidney stone" stories. The amy method of curing them: Keep punching the kidney till they pass through.

Sorry if this is a bit rambly, but could any of this have been a factor in prolonging the war for the blue space babes?

As is, it seems the bugs seem to have quantity has its own quantety and throw bodies at the enemy till they run out of bullets as their solution, and it seems to be working pretty good for them.


Sat Sep 28, 2019 2:51 pm
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Post Re: How can the Loroi win?
In World War I, the simultaneous arrival of modern artillery, machine guns and aircraft did create the conditions for stalemate; artillery forced infantry to dig in, machine guns made prepared positions very difficult to assault, and aircraft reconnaissance made it almost impossible to outflank and surprise the enemy. This was a happenstance and not deliberate; on the contrary, none of the combatants' leaderships were really prepared for the change in tactics, and it was their insistence on using old tactics that led to the bloodbath. The arrival of tanks near the end of the war helped to break the stalemate, rather than making it worse. But a stalemate doesn't necessarily have to be a bloodbath; if both sides had just sat in their trenches, the casualty counts would have been much lower (though the majority of losses would still have been to disease in the trenches... but I digress).

In the Loroi-Umiak war, there are similarly natural conditions for stalemate; the limited nature of jump drive stacks the forces up at the border systems, and the Loroi Farsensing ability makes it very difficult to outflank these built up forces. The Umiak tactics of headlong assault are similar to Foch's WWI tactics in the sense that they are deliberately creating heavy casualties on both sides, believing that they are better able to sustain such casualties than the enemy. There is also a similarity in the sense that the Umiak seek a technological edge that can help break the stalemate.

Korea, Vietnam and the modern Middle Eastern interventions are different situations; they were proxy wars and "limited" wars: the limitations were political, not technological. The US did not lose in Vietnam because of problems with M-16's.

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Sat Sep 28, 2019 3:23 pm
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Post Re: How can the Loroi win?
So would this war be more the French-German front lines, or the German-Russian front lines in World War One? I can imagine the World War II German-Soviet lines being more back and forth along large regions of territory had the Germans not had....other problems (fronts) to deal with. There was a lot more movement in Russia since its mostly flat from Germany to the Urals. Great for tanks when its not raining or snowing. France has other issues including denser population centers leading to more rapid defense deployments and natural barriers....which didn't stop the Germans in 1940, but their momentum was halted in 1914, though in 1917-18 they managed to get it going again with troops that had been in Russia until the fresh American forces arrived to blunt the last offensive. The war grinding to a halt as governments and economies fell apart.


Sat Sep 28, 2019 10:16 pm
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Post Re: How can the Loroi win?
At Arioch: I didn't mean to say the M-16 wasa deal breaker for Vietnam when it came to victory and other faults, bad communication on my part. I was trying to give some examples of how not the right headspace the powers to be were.

So would you say the Lora keep trying to reinvent the hammer with their tech or an over reliance on it.

It would also seem the Umiak are then using resources like they were constantly spamming Star Craft's Show me the money cheat. Does that mean they will run out or get more desperate sooner or later?


Tue Oct 01, 2019 4:42 pm
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Post Re: How can the Loroi win?
SaintofM wrote:
So would you say the Lora keep trying to reinvent the hammer with their tech or an over reliance on it.

The Loroi aren't obsessed at all with technology -- rather the reverse. Aside from the newer plasma weapons based on the Historian technology exchange, the Loroi are behind the Umiak in most technological fields. That the Loroi ships are usually faster than the Umiak ships is due to design philosophy rather than technology; Umiak engines are more efficient, and they build for endurance rather than speed.

SaintofM wrote:
It would also seem the Umiak are then using resources like they were constantly spamming Star Craft's Show me the money cheat. Does that mean they will run out or get more desperate sooner or later?

Aside from true limited resources like fossil fuels or exceptionally rare minerals like fissionables or rare earths, I'm not sure it's practically possible to "run out" of the elements necessary for making most TL10+ war materials; planets and asteroids are made out of them, after all. I think it's rather a question of increasing or even maintaining rate of production as the most lucrative deposits are exhausted and industry must turn to ever less cost-effective sources.

But whether the Umiak are close to industrial collapse or not even breaking a sweat is information that's not common knowledge and also rather important to the story, and so not something I'm going to tell you here. :D

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Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:03 pm
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Post Re: How can the Loroi win?
It’s not helping the discussion, but at high tech levels, one could make essential elements if necessary. It’d be aggravating and produce radioactive waste, and have to be done at large scale, but I expect it could be done.

After all, that’s how we get plutonium.


Tue Oct 01, 2019 11:41 pm
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Post Re: How can the Loroi win?
Producing PUE (Post Uranium Elements) in mass would be HIGHLY energy expensive, but if you could get into range of the island of stability the properties of some of these elements could be truly unique.

Needless to say this level of precision and power production are well beyond our means at this time.


Tue Oct 01, 2019 11:59 pm
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Post Re: How can the Loroi win?
Yah. Lots of energy. And some truly horrible nuclear waste lovingly laid down for us in the 50s by people who apparently never thought someone would have to deal with it.. (See Sellafield MOX silos. Hundreds of tons of fuel in decomposing concrete silos that must be kept underwater so the magnesium doesn’t catch fire, and also generates hydrogen gas as it reacts with that water to form highly radioactive waste. And the silos were never designed to be opened. What were they THINKING?)

In terms of superheavy elements, I believe we’re currently chucking calcium nuclei at heavy metal targets and seeing what happens. Hardly elegant...


Wed Oct 02, 2019 12:55 am
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Post Re: How can the Loroi win?
hi hi

You can get a lot of energy from a big solar array in orbit around a star. Or a cluster of fusion reactors around a small gas giant.


Wed Oct 02, 2019 1:23 am
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Post Re: How can the Loroi win?
Both faction are using some kind of Antimatter substitute, or something that is antimatter, but not (I'm not sure why it is not just antimatter...maybe its more stable and doesn't need the extensive magnetic containment setups of Star Trek like starships.)


Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:03 am
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Post Re: How can the Loroi win?
Indeed, once you put manufacturing in intersolar systems, you can "ship" (or construct) an energy station around/close to an star in an uninhibited system, and just chuck the waste at the closest planetary body in-system (or if you're not afraid it could do something to the sun, at the sun itself).
Why bother with it in such cases?

That's the nice thing about Sci-Fi. You don't need to explain yourself in much detail, as it's simply unknown.

However unlikely that is with our current knowledge.
But any sufficiently advanced technology will look like magic.

And in this case, it's the author's magic...

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Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:19 am
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Post Re: How can the Loroi win?
Ithekro wrote:
Both faction are using some kind of Antimatter substitute, or something that is antimatter, but not (I'm not sure why it is not just antimatter...maybe its more stable and doesn't need the extensive magnetic containment setups of Star Trek like starships.)

Creating antimatter requires more energy than you get from annihilating it, so it's not an energy source, but rather an energy storage and delivery medium. Which means it leaves open the question of where all that energy to create the antimatter comes from.

If we instead use some kind of exotic matter that decays on command but can be created using common elements like hydrogen or helium in a process involving some kind of catalyst or clever field generation that requires much less energy, then we have something that's much more practical than antimatter. And we can make it easier to store and transport for good measure.

Krulle wrote:
Indeed, once you put manufacturing in intersolar systems, you can "ship" (or construct) an energy station around/close to an star in an uninhibited system, and just chuck the waste at the closest planetary body in-system (or if you're not afraid it could do something to the sun, at the sun itself).

Well, dropping an orbiting mass into a gravity well can be quite expensive, especially if your target is the system primary, because that's a lot of velocity that has to be counteracted. I suppose with the acceleration available at TL10 it's not such a big deal, but there may be more efficient ways of dealing with waste. Especially since such waste may be useful in some way (like plutonium), and if you're talking about a manufacturing colony or stations, you can probably just store it somewhere nearby... it's not like you have to worry about poisoning the ecosystem.

One of the things that makes it relatively easy to drop objects from Earth orbit is the braking effect of the atmosphere... so I suppose that if you had an industrial station near to a gas giant, it wouldn't take too much of a boost to send a package on an orbit that would interact with the gas giant's outer atmosphere, and eventually decay and make planetfall.

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Wed Oct 02, 2019 10:44 am
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Post Re: How can the Loroi win?
The Loroi are going to have to adopt the Nathan Bedford Forrest mantra of getting there firstest with the mostest. I don't see them being able to win otherwise. So that dictates fast, well armed hard hitting ships, that can get in, do max damage, and then run. Sort of like the original battle cruiser concept.


Fri Nov 01, 2019 7:26 pm
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Post Re: How can the Loroi win?
I just thought of something: Are the Loroi too comfortable in their fighting tactics and need to change something to move this conflict along past a shoving match?

What would be a key major difference between Loroi fighting style over humans if our tech levels evened out?

And what would that be of their allied races? About the same, relying on more fast attack and hit and run?

Any acting as tanks in the RPG sense?


Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:30 am
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Post Re: How can the Loroi win?
Judging by the ships in their fleet and when they were designed, it seems like the Loroi started with heavier ships armed with blasters. They were on the defensive from the starts, and couldn't gain much back in the early part of the war. Early war designs fitted the new pulse cannons and some had wave looms. These ships were designed to be fast and strike at range since they needed to cover a lot of space to make an effective offensive. This seems to have partly worked as it pushed the lines back almost to the original borders. However the early war designs were a bit thin on armor and the heavy and superheavy enemy ships eventually took out the main Semoset fleet.

Since then it seems that he Loroi have been designing fast strike ships, but also building them with more armor. Even there newer battleships aren't fast, but are heavily armed and better shielded than the earlier model of battleship.

Tactics wise, it seems they are using their normal tactics because they worked until very, very recently (and even then the 51st still managed to be effective). However I imagine this is partly because they are using the older fast ships to lead the strike groups on the borders to constantly keep the enemy guessing how many fleets they have out there. Meanwhile the newer fleets get built inside the Union and trained up, looking for a chance to mount a new offensive. Their crews and sometimes ships get sent to the strike groups for experience, but the main body waited the call of the Emperor.


Sun Nov 03, 2019 10:35 am
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Post Re: How can the Loroi win?
Ithekro wrote:
Judging by the ships in their fleet and when they were designed, it seems like the Loroi started with heavier ships armed with blasters. They were on the defensive from the starts, and couldn't gain much back in the early part of the war. Early war designs fitted the new pulse cannons and some had wave looms. These ships were designed to be fast and strike at range since they needed to cover a lot of space to make an effective offensive. This seems to have partly worked as it pushed the lines back almost to the original borders. However the early war designs were a bit thin on armor and the heavy and superheavy enemy ships eventually took out the main Semoset fleet.

Since then it seems that he Loroi have been designing fast strike ships, but also building them with more armor. Even there newer battleships aren't fast, but are heavily armed and better shielded than the earlier model of battleship.

Tactics wise, it seems they are using their normal tactics because they worked until very, very recently (and even then the 51st still managed to be effective). However I imagine this is partly because they are using the older fast ships to lead the strike groups on the borders to constantly keep the enemy guessing how many fleets they have out there. Meanwhile the newer fleets get built inside the Union and trained up, looking for a chance to mount a new offensive. Their crews and sometimes ships get sent to the strike groups for experience, but the main body waited the call of the Emperor.


Hope so. I don't think the Loroi can afford to adopt a "crust" defense, they have to move major fleets where they are needed, so they have to adopt a "fire Brigade" tactical and strategic stance. Sort of like the Roman Empire in the late 3rd and 4th Centuries.


Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:07 pm
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Post Re: How can the Loroi win?
I just rather see the Umiak and Loroi get blown back to the Stone Age.


Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:45 am
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Post Re: How can the Loroi win?
Philly wrote:
I just rather see the Umiak and Loroi get blown back to the Stone Age.


...again.


Mon Nov 04, 2019 9:46 pm
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