174-175: Got milk?

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Jagged
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Re: 174-175: Got milk?

Post by Jagged »

Clockwork Ninja wrote: You say the Loroi favored warfare over anything else, but societies who invest little in scientific or economic development tend to... not develop much. How did they get to the level of an industrial revolution, much less interstellar flight?
Unfortunately much of our investment into scientific and technological research is driven by our desire for military supremacy.

Warringrose
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Re: 174-175: Got milk?

Post by Warringrose »

Unfortunately much of our investment into scientific and technological research is driven by our desire for military supremacy.
And profit! Has anyone seen how many of the big pharmaceutical companies aren't perusing a vaccine for Corona Virus because it simply wouldn't be a profitable venture? Yay capitalism!

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Werra
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Re: 174-175: Got milk?

Post by Werra »

@boldilocks
Milk straight from the udder goes well with a hot cup of Kopi Luwak. Mix in mouth for best results.

Btw, people do milk fish, for breeding purposes and for caviar.

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sunphoenix
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Re: 174-175: Got milk?

Post by sunphoenix »

Don't know about you folks ...but it looks to me Tempo was 'turned on' by the thought of a Milk-Fed Alex?!? :mrgreen:

"Take me to the Secret planet of Milk-Fed Boys!"
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boldilocks
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Re: 174-175: Got milk?

Post by boldilocks »

Warringrose wrote:
Unfortunately much of our investment into scientific and technological research is driven by our desire for military supremacy.
And profit! Has anyone seen how many of the big pharmaceutical companies aren't perusing a vaccine for Corona Virus because it simply wouldn't be a profitable venture? Yay capitalism!
From what I've read, there's more than a dozen flu-vaccine related companies trying to develop one at the moment. It's just not going to be of any real use in regards to this present outbreak.
I don't know how many there are out there, but then I assume not every pharmaceutical company is involved in the flu-virus, and some are probably working on the normal yearly flu vaccines.
It's kinda funny, because the companies that have announced they're "working on a vaccine" have had their stock blow up big time in a bear market, so you'd probably be better off putting an intern to work and put out a press release that you're on the case even if your focus was on something else.

Arent
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Re: 174-175: Got milk?

Post by Arent »

Warringrose wrote:
Unfortunately much of our investment into scientific and technological research is driven by our desire for military supremacy.
And profit! Has anyone seen how many of the big pharmaceutical companies aren't perusing a vaccine for Corona Virus because it simply wouldn't be a profitable venture? Yay capitalism!
There are a lot of diseases that need to be tended to. Literally all of us are dying of age, cancer, immune system or circulatory failure.

And yes, you might criticize the single minded profit making of free markets. But please bear in mind that work without any payment would be slavery.

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Arioch
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Re: 174-175: Got milk?

Post by Arioch »

Clockwork Ninja wrote:If its not too specific, could you talk about about how the Loroi developed from post-fall hunter gatherers without domesticated animals, without a complete ecosystem?

Animals are not just for meat, milk, and leather, but also labor and transportation, among many other things. On Earth it wasn't until well into the 20th century that machines were common, reliable and cheap enough to replace animals as a power source in most peoples lives. Plowing a field or pulling a cart with only humanoids, especially if they are physically weaker than an average human, is really quite difficult.
Many a war has been decided by who had the most horses, not just for cavalry, but for the extensive baggage train an army requires. I think it was mentioned most civilian Loroi lived in compounds encircled by protective warriors? Without widespread farms to steal provision from, a pre-modern army would find it very hard to operate over long distances. Unless the Soia left the planet completely covered with fruit and nut trees, berry bushes and edible roots?

You say the Loroi favored warfare over anything else, but societies who invest little in scientific or economic development tend to... not develop much. How did they get to the level of an industrial revolution, much less interstellar flight?
The Loroi on Deinar had no riding animals or beasts of burden, so everything had to be powered by Loroi "manpower" and the only travel was on foot or by boat. Loroi had to use manual farming techniques; fortunately, the Soia-Liron crops require a lot less labor than most Earth crops. This definitely had an impact on the speed of their development, compared to humans. However, animals are not a prerequisite for farming; even on Earth, people used hoes and digging-sticks long before the plow was invented, and there were plenty of civilizations that arose without any draft or riding animals at all. They're also not a prerequisite for great works of engineering; the pyramids in Egypt and Mesoamerica were all built purely with human power.

Similarly, without riding animals, armies consist entirely of infantry. This is not any kind of problem, and again, human history is no stranger to infantry-only armies. Early horses were not large enough for conventional cavalry, and prior to the development of the wheel there were no chariots, so early armies were all-infantry by definition. Even well into the Iron Age, many European armies continued to be all-infantry, such as in Classical Greece, with chariots being used mainly for transportation of heroes around the battlefield. Cultures in sub-Saharan Africa and the Americas (as late as just prior to European colonization) didn't any riding animals or cavalry either, and this didn't prevent them from fielding large and effective armies.
Werra wrote:What do the Loroi eat during their Diral? I was under the impression that they have to life off the land for 2 years. That kind of environment should make them used to eating every single part of an animal. Wtf, Beryl?
What they eat depends on what's available; in some locations (such as Beryl's diral on Mezan, or when training is on a space station) there is no native life at all. In such a case the diral is usually given an insufficient supply of rations, and they are expected (and encouraged) to steal more. A feature of many dirals is staging mock raids on local settlements, stealing from the civilians.

Beryl is implying nursing directly from a farm animal, which is a rather different sanitary concern than cooking and eating meat.
Werra wrote:Btw, people do milk fish, for breeding purposes and for caviar.
That's not "milk." :D

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dragoongfa
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Re: 174-175: Got milk?

Post by dragoongfa »

Arioch wrote: What they eat depends on what's available; in some locations (such as Beryl's diral on Mezan, or when training is on a space station) there is no native life at all. In such a case the diral is usually given an insufficient supply of rations, and they are expected (and encouraged) to steal more. A feature of many dirals is staging mock raids on local settlements, stealing from the civilians.
Quick question, are civilians reimbursed for these raids and do they play along with the scheme? (i.e. making things just hard enough to be a challenge but making sure for things not to get out of hand)

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Arioch
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Re: 174-175: Got milk?

Post by Arioch »

dragoongfa wrote:
Arioch wrote: What they eat depends on what's available; in some locations (such as Beryl's diral on Mezan, or when training is on a space station) there is no native life at all. In such a case the diral is usually given an insufficient supply of rations, and they are expected (and encouraged) to steal more. A feature of many dirals is staging mock raids on local settlements, stealing from the civilians.
Quick question, are civilians reimbursed for these raids and do they play along with the scheme? (i.e. making things just hard enough to be a challenge but making sure for things not to get out of hand)
Well, that depends. In ancient times, the raids were often real, and usually directed at rival communities (civilians were considered off-limits as targets of war, but their supplies were not). In modern times, attitudes vary: some civilians consider themselves part of the enterprise and play along with some enthusiasm; in others, they factor it in as the cost of doing business; in some places they might demand and be granted compensation for losses; and in still others, they might be told to shut up and get back to work.

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Re: 174-175: Got milk?

Post by Sweforce »

Arioch wrote:
dragoongfa wrote:
Arioch wrote: What they eat depends on what's available; in some locations (such as Beryl's diral on Mezan, or when training is on a space station) there is no native life at all. In such a case the diral is usually given an insufficient supply of rations, and they are expected (and encouraged) to steal more. A feature of many dirals is staging mock raids on local settlements, stealing from the civilians.
Quick question, are civilians reimbursed for these raids and do they play along with the scheme? (i.e. making things just hard enough to be a challenge but making sure for things not to get out of hand)
Well, that depends. In ancient times, the raids were often real, and usually directed at rival communities (civilians were considered off-limits as targets of war, but their supplies were not). In modern times, attitudes vary: some civilians consider themselves part of the enterprise and play along with some enthusiasm; in others, they factor it in as the cost of doing business; in some places they might demand and be granted compensation for losses; and in still others, they might be told to shut up and get back to work.
This reminds me of how the Spartans treated the Helots...

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dragoongfa
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Re: 174-175: Got milk?

Post by dragoongfa »

Sweforce wrote:This reminds me of how the Spartans treated the Helots...
Considering that it was a Spartan rite of passage to murder a Helot at night time without being discovered and then to become part of the Krypteia whose main purpose was to terrorize Helots; the Loroi civilians had it better. A lot better when one considers that Helots were for all intents state owned serfs who had little to no rights.
Spartans were woefully outnumbered by the Helots and their state 'lived' (for lack of a better word) in fear, their policies against them demonstrating that on all times.

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Re: 174-175: Got milk?

Post by Sweforce »

dragoongfa wrote:
Sweforce wrote:This reminds me of how the Spartans treated the Helots...
Considering that it was a Spartan rite of passage to murder a Helot at night time without being discovered and then to become part of the Krypteia whose main purpose was to terrorize Helots; the Loroi civilians had it better. A lot better when one considers that Helots were for all intents state owned serfs who had little to no rights.
Spartans were woefully outnumbered by the Helots and their state 'lived' (for lack of a better word) in fear, their policies against them demonstrating that on all times.
Yes the loroin civilians are better of but the system are similar, just not as extreme as in the Spartan/Helot relationship. I remember a documentary I saw about british soldiers during a training exercise, survival in a rural area and how they where reminded NOT to involve the local civilians. This included going to the local grocery to purchase food or even accept donations.

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dragoongfa
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Re: 174-175: Got milk?

Post by dragoongfa »

Sweforce wrote:
dragoongfa wrote:
Sweforce wrote:This reminds me of how the Spartans treated the Helots...
Considering that it was a Spartan rite of passage to murder a Helot at night time without being discovered and then to become part of the Krypteia whose main purpose was to terrorize Helots; the Loroi civilians had it better. A lot better when one considers that Helots were for all intents state owned serfs who had little to no rights.
Spartans were woefully outnumbered by the Helots and their state 'lived' (for lack of a better word) in fear, their policies against them demonstrating that on all times.
Yes the loroin civilians are better of but the system are similar, just not as extreme as in the Spartan/Helot relationship. I remember a documentary I saw about british soldiers during a training exercise, survival in a rural area and how they where reminded NOT to involve the local civilians. This included going to the local grocery to purchase food or even accept donations.
Similar but I think that the main difference lays upon the fact that the Loroi civilians are seen as 'failed warriors' which means that most of them are related to warriors (since failed warriors simply failed in their dirals/training) and that a self respecting warrior would flinch upon the idea of lowering themselves to fight/kill someone lesser than them; provided that said someone showed the proper respect and deference.
In a society where lying and secrecy is an impossibility excesses of any kind in terms of mistreatment of the civilian caste are bound to bring forth repercussions, both on the societal and physical levels. Imagine an example of a high ranking veteran warrior coming face to face with a low ranking warrior who happened to kill her civilian daughter.

"You killed my daughter!" The veteran would accuse.
"She was a civilian!" The low rank would reply. In any other society this deflection would easily fly, it is both a put down on the aggrieved party as she is the mother of a civilian while also highlighting the fact of the lower status and worth of the dead civilian. In a telepathic society however were truth is paramount and beyond reproach the circumstances would be paramount.

Did the civilian 'ask for it' or was she killed because the warrior simply wanted to kill someone? Even if the dead civilian 'did ask for it' were her actions and behavior sufficient to warrant death?

The truth would come out almost instantly and if the circumstances didn't warrant the end result then the low ranking warrior will face consequences. Ranging from being the recipient of a blood feud for being a murderous bitch to be branded an incompetent coward who is only able to pick fights and kill those weaker than her. Even if the ranks were reversed things wouldn't change significantly, a blood feud is still a blood feud and the higher status one has all the more reasons they have to not get their image dirty by lowering themselves to the level of civilians.

So all in all, I think that generally speaking Loroi civilians have it better than human slaves and serfs. As long as they 'know their place' they are pretty safe from their 'betters'. The can also own property and get rich without drawing the ire of warriors which is an other major plus. The big malus lay with the fact that they are a telepathic society were one's thoughts are the same as one's words and actions; if one cannot accept their status and they constantly think above their status then they are in a word of hurt.

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