The Current State of Human Technology

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Aygar
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Re: The Current State of Human Technology

Post by Aygar »

junk wrote:
Karst45 wrote:You seem to forget the Telekinetic capability of Loroi "unsheathed"

I think that a unarmed unsheathed loroi, with somewhat some imagination, could be a threat to even a tank, and could probably decimate a squad without giving her position away.
As far as we can see this allowed her to push Alex somewhat. I have some doubts it has more aplications than CQC. Though obviously one would need the word of god for that.
See http://www.well-of-souls.com/forums/vie ... 1738#p1738
Arioch wrote:Loroi ground forces are based around heavily armed and armored infantry, led by psionic Unsheathed that can pack quite a punch. The infantry forces are supplemented by a variety of armored fighting vehicles (a merge of functionality between hovertanks, dropships and helicopter gunships), dedicated artillery and air superiority vehicles, and a mix of just about anything else that you can think of. But the emphasis is on basic infantry, for two reasons. Infantry can be dispersed and is resistant to bombardment, whereas armored vehicles are often easy to target from the air or from orbit. But perhaps more to the point, a powerful Unsheathed can junk most armored vehicles.
Unsheathed are threats to tanks.

IIRC they have a range of at least a couple hundred of feet but I can't find a reference to the range of psychokinetic talents at all.

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Grayhome
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Re: The Current State of Human Technology

Post by Grayhome »

Unsheathed are threats to tanks.
Understatement, Unsheathed can rip tanks apartin this verse, from range.

Aygar
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Re: The Current State of Human Technology

Post by Aygar »

Found a reference on telekinetic range. See http://well-of-souls.com/outsider/fredg ... tions.html Telepathy section part 11. Quoted below in full.
Arioch wrote:Telekinetic attacks against inanimate objects are limited by the Teidar's ability to judge distance to the target; it may take some "poking" around for her to achieve a hit looking through binoculars. Against a living target, a Teidar may be able to use her telepathy to pinpoint the location of the enemy, potentially even beyond visual range (if her telepathy is sensitive enough). However, a Teidar's attention is not infinite; in the midst of a heated skirmish, a distant sniper may be very difficult to notice before it is too late.
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junk
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Re: The Current State of Human Technology

Post by junk »

Aygar wrote:
junk wrote:
Karst45 wrote:You seem to forget the Telekinetic capability of Loroi "unsheathed"

I think that a unarmed unsheathed loroi, with somewhat some imagination, could be a threat to even a tank, and could probably decimate a squad without giving her position away.
As far as we can see this allowed her to push Alex somewhat. I have some doubts it has more aplications than CQC. Though obviously one would need the word of god for that.
See http://www.well-of-souls.com/forums/vie ... 1738#p1738
Arioch wrote:Loroi ground forces are based around heavily armed and armored infantry, led by psionic Unsheathed that can pack quite a punch. The infantry forces are supplemented by a variety of armored fighting vehicles (a merge of functionality between hovertanks, dropships and helicopter gunships), dedicated artillery and air superiority vehicles, and a mix of just about anything else that you can think of. But the emphasis is on basic infantry, for two reasons. Infantry can be dispersed and is resistant to bombardment, whereas armored vehicles are often easy to target from the air or from orbit. But perhaps more to the point, a powerful Unsheathed can junk most armored vehicles.
Unsheathed are threats to tanks.

IIRC they have a range of at least a couple hundred of feet but I can't find a reference to the range of psychokinetic talents at all.

--Aygar
Well not sure how much good it will do them though. Essentially if I understand correctly then, they are walking RPGs - with no computerised aiming assistance and likewise can't do a tick by wire. And that probably at distance which are smaller than future armour. Not to mention that future armour will probably have detection capabilities we can only dream off.

Admittedly changes my perception of them though.

Though I've got a feeling a soldier with future gear would make a really bad day for them though. Overall the unsheated seems to be very visual. Or if not visual, very dependant on their ability to pinpoint enemy troops by telepathy. A ground pounder army with drones which are almost bound to show up would not be nice. Same goes for a race they cannot sense.

Paragon
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Re: The Current State of Human Technology

Post by Paragon »

And that's why humans have to be very careful about how we negotiate.

Thanks for answering my questions Arioch. I can now see that there's quite a bit more at stake in the story than is apparent at first glance, in that our intrepid Ensign's actions could potentially kill us all. :lol:
"Optical computers, genetic catalogs, nanorepair modules--forget all of that. It's when you see a megaton of steel suspended over your head by a thread the thickness of a human hair that you really find God in technology."

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Re: The Current State of Human Technology

Post by fredgiblet »

Grayhome wrote:Understatement, Unsheathed can rip tanks apartin this verse, from range.
Not..really. Fireblade can exert several tons of force but that's not even enough to lift a turret out, much less tear it apart, and she's one of the most powerful Teidar there is. If by tear apart you mean she can pull bits and pieces off then yes, faced with an Abrams she could probably rip the Ma Deuce off of it or break the optics, but she's not going to be able to split the tank in half.

Solemn
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Re: The Current State of Human Technology

Post by Solemn »

I don't know how modern tanks store their ammo or what cooling systems they might use. Could Fireblade be able to use her pyrokinesis to ignite the ammunition, if she knew where it was?

(I'd expect new storage and cooling systems to be designed around preventing this, if it were possible in the first place, after the first couple of incidents anyways, though).
junk wrote:Well not sure how much good it will do them though. Essentially if I understand correctly then, they are walking RPGs - with no computerised aiming assistance and likewise can't do a tick by wire. And that probably at distance which are smaller than future armour. Not to mention that future armour will probably have detection capabilities we can only dream off.

Admittedly changes my perception of them though.

Though I've got a feeling a soldier with future gear would make a really bad day for them though. Overall the unsheated seems to be very visual. Or if not visual, very dependant on their ability to pinpoint enemy troops by telepathy. A ground pounder army with drones which are almost bound to show up would not be nice. Same goes for a race they cannot sense.
I think I remember reading somewhere that being ambushed while breaching doors and entering buildings was the main worry of modern infantry, especially since they can't really shoot AROUND corners.

A telekinetic can. I'd think strong telekinetics would develop new and entirely different doctrines for how to clear buildings, especially if only one side had telekinesis, and that this wouldn't cease to be a huge advantage even if you can't sense your opponents; I'm sure they've developed ways to use telekinesis to prematurely spring most traps or telekinetically smash into likely placements for automated defenses.

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Re: The Current State of Human Technology

Post by fredgiblet »

Solemn wrote:I don't know how modern tanks store their ammo or what cooling systems they might use. Could Fireblade be able to use her pyrokinesis to ignite the ammunition, if she knew where it was?
Well they don't appear to need Line-of-Sight so I don't see why not, but it would be probably be pretty hard to do accurately.
I think I remember reading somewhere that being ambushed while breaching doors and entering buildings was the main worry of modern infantry, especially since they can't really shoot AROUND corners.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornershot

Overkill Engine
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Re: The Current State of Human Technology

Post by Overkill Engine »

Interesting. Though that begs me to ask: how expensive are these? (Too expensive for mass issue to soldiers? 1-2 per team/squad/platoon/company?) I did go to the website for the manufacturer; but didn't see a price quote.

And, if this thing breaks in the field...how the heck am I going to fix it?

Also noticed the weight listed....8.5 lbs for the pistol version I assume. Hoo boy...that's gonna get heavy carrying the rifle versions in a hurry because that will pretty much almost double what a regular M-16 weighs...

*and if you don't think a M-16 weighs a lot, do an hour of rifle PT and get back to me on that. What you can stand to hold for 5 minutes and play around at your leisure is a lot different from what you have to drag around some forsaken place for hours if not days on end.

I like the concept, just worried the cost and carry weight outweigh the gains for regular issue to infantry as far as strict direct combat. But, the site did list that apparently the video feed can be seen by command remotely- that is actually freaking awesome. Until someone hacks the feed. :(


Sorry, bit of a logistics nerd when it comes to these things.

Edit: Had to add that the remote feed option also means it has to be broadcasting a signal of some sort, most likely radio frequency. While there are techniques like SSMA that help spread the signal out and partially hide it in the noise floor, it can still leave a hump that observant enemy communications could possibly see in the spectrum. Sorry...I see something new and tend to start thinking of ways to break and abuse it.

Paragon
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Re: The Current State of Human Technology

Post by Paragon »

@Solemn, what about flashbangs, or any other weapon that could disrupt hearing and line of sight?
"Optical computers, genetic catalogs, nanorepair modules--forget all of that. It's when you see a megaton of steel suspended over your head by a thread the thickness of a human hair that you really find God in technology."

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Re: The Current State of Human Technology

Post by fredgiblet »

You didn't see a price because you probably can't buy it. Realistically it's not going to be adopted for regular combat as the weight issue and firepower degradation will be too severe. It might find it's way into units that spend most of their time in CQB, but even then the lack of firepower is significant. Most likely the majority of customers will be SWAT and Spec Ops units where CQB is assured and stealth is important.

If it breaks in the field you take the pistol out and use it like normal.

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Re: The Current State of Human Technology

Post by Solemn »

Paragon wrote:@Solemn, what about flashbangs, or any other weapon that could disrupt hearing and line of sight?
I'm not sure what this question actually means or why it is being addressed to me.
I will assume you mean to imply that those things would diminish a telekinetic's ability to perform its duty.

So, I guess my answer is yeah, probably?

But my understanding is that flashbangs of the modern era have to be thrown or placed right next to the target, and a telekinetic could repel them with her mind, and setting them up in advance would be slightly more problematic than it would against human foes.

For instance, rooms booby-trapped with tripwires or pressure-triggered mines beneath the floor wouldn't offer an effective trap, as a telekinetic who had reason to suspect such would pat the walls and floor where she intended to walk down first. So people who use those sorts of traps (the oldest sort known to man, pits lined with sharp sticks and all that) would switch to things like optically triggered or timed or remote controlled explosives and other things that a telekinetic can't trigger prematurely by patting down.

Plus, things like infantry taking cover behind anything (not just corners or hallways or other ambush points) would be a bit less useful against someone who can reach around or through cover to smash you with her brain; sure, we have grenades and explosives that can get around cover right now, but if videogames have taught me anything it's that a cheap sofa will stop bullets and completely protect you from an enormous explosion. There may be some sarcasm in that sentence. I don't know how useful cover actually is in modern infantry combat, but since it seems to take place in cities instead of open fields I'd guess "a lot." It's still just a guess.

On the telekinetic's end, cover is slightly less necessary, she could probably project some field to deflect smaller and lighter projectiles that would have been grazing hits or whatnot, and enemies taking cover is less problematic, since she can, again, reach around it.

I'd think the Loroi would adapt to infantry combat in different ways than we have, and would have done so since the bronze age; Alex mentioned that the warriors he saw seem to have a strong touching taboo, whereas, say, a Norse shield-wall or a Greek Phalanx would have men holding their shields over the guy next to or in front of them, so the men would be pretty close to having some skin-to-skin contact with one another. The Loroi don't seem to have been trained to deal with that, and the Loroi seem (to me) to be a hidebound, conservative society who would have kept up the ancestral training practices (the whole warrior rites thing, right?) so they might never have developed shield- or spear-wall infantry tactics. If they didn't, it seems to me that's probably because of telekinetics being able to behave like highly accurate artillery, rather than just because touching is awkward; if infantry walls were as effective for them as they were for us, I have no doubt that the Loroi would have used them, and suspect that the training practices would carry over into the modern warriors, and reduce the touch taboo.

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Re: The Current State of Human Technology

Post by Mjolnir »

Solemn wrote:But my understanding is that flashbangs of the modern era have to be thrown or placed right next to the target, and a telekinetic could repel them with her mind, and setting them up in advance would be slightly more problematic than it would against human foes.
Telekinetics can use flashbangs too, and ensure that they're well-placed. One with even moderate ability could stand outside a door (or even small hole knocked in the wall), and without ever showing themselves, snake flashbangs, fragmentation grenades, etc into an open space in the room where they're not obscured by some inconvenient piece of furniture and dangle them in mid-air as they go off.

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junk
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Re: The Current State of Human Technology

Post by junk »

As to disruption gear. Think future wise :) Imagine some sort of microwaves that work trough walls and stuff like that. We are developing crowd control systems like that. The next step is to make it portable and stronger.

Of course most people have to remember that essentially our current ways to lead war are all relatively recent. And have only started to brutally change in the past hundred and fifty years or so. The US civil war is sometimes seen as the first area of warfare where the change was imminent.

And the concepts we have now, are all essentially stuff that has been emergant during ww2 and vietnam.

Now give human technology and warfare even further. In fact the unsheated might actually be a problem for the loroi mindset in a sense.
As humans don't have any natural abilities to make them vastly better at warfare, you had advancement trough necessity as well as simplicity.
Each new "aid" was either better than what already existed or it was far cheaper to manufacture than preexisting gear. (bronze vs early iron for instance, where the iron was actually inferior but so much cheaper).

The loroi on the other hand, have a natural ambient noise proof communication, telekinetic soldiers which make early armour concepts ineffectiveas well, likewise the development of camouflage and similar sight retardants and one could go on.

This might potentially lead to them having a number of technologies undeveloped or not developed at all.

That said, the fact that the loroi were aware of their sister worlds from pretty much the beginning might spur the development of some other tech towards which humanity arrived much much later.
Solemn wrote:
Paragon wrote:@Solemn, what about flashbangs, or any other weapon that could disrupt hearing and line of sight?
I'm not sure what this question actually means or why it is being addressed to me.
I will assume you mean to imply that those things would diminish a telekinetic's ability to perform its duty.

So, I guess my answer is yeah, probably?

But my understanding is that flashbangs of the modern era have to be thrown or placed right next to the target, and a telekinetic could repel them with her mind, and setting them up in advance would be slightly more problematic than it would against human foes.

For instance, rooms booby-trapped with tripwires or pressure-triggered mines beneath the floor wouldn't offer an effective trap, as a telekinetic who had reason to suspect such would pat the walls and floor where she intended to walk down first. So people who use those sorts of traps (the oldest sort known to man, pits lined with sharp sticks and all that) would switch to things like optically triggered or timed or remote controlled explosives and other things that a telekinetic can't trigger prematurely by patting down.

Plus, things like infantry taking cover behind anything (not just corners or hallways or other ambush points) would be a bit less useful against someone who can reach around or through cover to smash you with her brain; sure, we have grenades and explosives that can get around cover right now, but if videogames have taught me anything it's that a cheap sofa will stop bullets and completely protect you from an enormous explosion. There may be some sarcasm in that sentence. I don't know how useful cover actually is in modern infantry combat, but since it seems to take place in cities instead of open fields I'd guess "a lot." It's still just a guess.

On the telekinetic's end, cover is slightly less necessary, she could probably project some field to deflect smaller and lighter projectiles that would have been grazing hits or whatnot, and enemies taking cover is less problematic, since she can, again, reach around it.

I'd think the Loroi would adapt to infantry combat in different ways than we have, and would have done so since the bronze age; Alex mentioned that the warriors he saw seem to have a strong touching taboo, whereas, say, a Norse shield-wall or a Greek Phalanx would have men holding their shields over the guy next to or in front of them, so the men would be pretty close to having some skin-to-skin contact with one another. The Loroi don't seem to have been trained to deal with that, and the Loroi seem (to me) to be a hidebound, conservative society who would have kept up the ancestral training practices (the whole warrior rites thing, right?) so they might never have developed shield- or spear-wall infantry tactics. If they didn't, it seems to me that's probably because of telekinetics being able to behave like highly accurate artillery, rather than just because touching is awkward; if infantry walls were as effective for them as they were for us, I have no doubt that the Loroi would have used them, and suspect that the training practices would carry over into the modern warriors, and reduce the touch taboo.

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Re: The Current State of Human Technology

Post by Solemn »

junk wrote:As to disruption gear. Think future wise :) Imagine some sort of microwaves that work trough walls and stuff like that. We are developing crowd control systems like that. The next step is to make it portable and stronger.
If you can hit Fireblade with a future weapon, I'd think you are going to want it to be set to kill. Not stun or disorient, but kill.
I cannot think of any advantage to taking her alive, especially not alive, aware, surly, and disoriented.
If you intend to hit her with something like a flashbang or a raygun, that "something like" is probably better if it's able to stop her in a permanent sense, instead of send her into a frenzy of telekinetic thrashing about.

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Re: The Current State of Human Technology

Post by Overkill Engine »

fredgiblet wrote:You didn't see a price because you probably can't buy it. Realistically it's not going to be adopted for regular combat as the weight issue and firepower degradation will be too severe. It might find it's way into units that spend most of their time in CQB, but even then the lack of firepower is significant. Most likely the majority of customers will be SWAT and Spec Ops units where CQB is assured and stealth is important.

If it breaks in the field you take the pistol out and use it like normal.
That was my understanding of it...nice, but too expensive for regular unit use. Oh well.
Solemn wrote:
junk wrote:As to disruption gear. Think future wise :) Imagine some sort of microwaves that work trough walls and stuff like that. We are developing crowd control systems like that. The next step is to make it portable and stronger.
If you can hit Fireblade with a future weapon, I'd think you are going to want it to be set to kill. Not stun or disorient, but kill.
I cannot think of any advantage to taking her alive, especially not alive, aware, surly, and disoriented.
If you intend to hit her with something like a flashbang or a raygun, that "something like" is probably better if it's able to stop her in a permanent sense, instead of send her into a frenzy of telekinetic thrashing about.
Hmm. That still could be advantageous depending on the situation. A TK user suddenly unable to distinguish "target" from "not a target" just became a huge liability to their allies. At that point, it's not about taking them alive, it's about letting them do some of the work for you.

Something else comes to mind....how fine of an object can a TK user like Fireblade manipulate on the fly? Can they block fine particulate clouds and gasses? And if so, for how long? And how far? Does velocity matter?

Can one distinguish a complex item like a proximity explosive from random terrain clutter based on TK sense alone?

And what is the average reaction time from "unshielded" to "shielded"?

Depending on all these, Humans might not be so disadvantaged in ground combat after all- if we are functionally invisible to telepathy for them; and if they cannot react/shield continuously under fire....then even present day weapons could be lethal with the proper combat tactics.

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Re: The Current State of Human Technology

Post by Arioch »

fredgiblet wrote: Not..really. Fireblade can exert several tons of force but that's not even enough to lift a turret out, much less tear it apart, and she's one of the most powerful Teidar there is. If by tear apart you mean she can pull bits and pieces off then yes, faced with an Abrams she could probably rip the Ma Deuce off of it or break the optics, but she's not going to be able to split the tank in half.
Fireblade can punch holes in armored vehicles (or anything else) by heating a location on the surface until the structure begins to fail, then applying force to the heated section. This does take several seconds, so a quicker and more effective way to disable an armored vehicle is usually to attack the crew directly. Signature detection can be used to locate the crewmembers, even if they are not visible.
Overkill Engine wrote:Something else comes to mind....how fine of an object can a TK user like Fireblade manipulate on the fly? Can they block fine particulate clouds and gasses? And if so, for how long? And how far? Does velocity matter? Can one distinguish a complex item like a proximity explosive from random terrain clutter based on TK sense alone?
There is no "TK sense" -- psychokinesis provides no direct feedback. The PK Shield ability amounts to the user applying a zone of force at a particular distance, that will act against any matter that attempts to pass. How large a zone can be created and how long it can be maintained depends on the skill and power of the user.

Activation time and granularity of manipulation varies depending on the user. Fireblade's reaction time is very quick, but her fine manipulation is poor; she can swat away something thrown at her with ease, but couldn't pick up a doll and make it dance. Tempo has much finer dexterity with her telekinesis, but isn't fast enough to be able to use it reactively as an effective active defense.

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Re: The Current State of Human Technology

Post by Overkill Engine »

No direct mental/tactile TK feedback eh? That's a pretty big hole to exploit once one has learned of it. Though signature detection has probably done the Loroi fine up until now...

Does signature detection work on non-organic entities?

So I take it something like a cloud of particles or gas attack could be blocked...at the expense of blocking new air coming in then as well? (And of course I imagine trying to continuously run a shield would be draining in the mean time.)

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Re: The Current State of Human Technology

Post by fredgiblet »

Overkill Engine wrote:Does signature detection work on non-organic entities?
No.

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Re: The Current State of Human Technology

Post by NOMAD »

Overkill Engine wrote:No direct mental/tactile TK feedback eh? That's a pretty big hole to exploit once one has learned of it. Though signature detection has probably done the Loroi fine up until now...

Does signature detection work on non-organic entities?
dang it fred and i had is nice long answer to give, on well ;)

the simple answer no, non-organic entities are "detectable" to the loroi and before you think of using unmanned remote ships ( or armour vehicles), their have been lengthy and legendary discussion on the topic. summary, would not work given the lack of FLT com's for the USS (unmanned space ship) to relay events. granted you could have a local defensive ships for but interstellar ships
Overkill Engine wrote:So I take it something like a cloud of particles or gas attack could be blocked...at the expense of blocking new air coming in then as well? (And of course I imagine trying to continuously run a shield would be draining in the mean time.)
it might be but I think Arioch point is, might be in error, that Fireblade could only push the particle or gas away from her, but never seal away an area like a Star Trek force field.
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