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Re: page 83
Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2011 8:16 am
by manticore7
I seem to recall reading that as the Loroi got closer to Umiak space they started haveing trouble with their Farseeing device. Maybe they can only detect Umiak life signs and cant differentiate between a colony and an attacking fleet unless it moves.
Re: page 83
Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2011 11:22 am
by uthilian
manticore7 wrote:I seem to recall reading that as the Loroi got closer to Umiak space they started having trouble with their Farseeing device. Maybe they can only detect Umiak life signs and cant differentiate between a colony and an attacking fleet unless it moves.
that is exactly true Arioch has said in the past the device/farseer cannot differentiate between people on board a ship above a planet and a colony on the planet (the whole no man's land of dead systems negates this effect allowing easier detection and interception). I am not sure but the device may also suffer from an inability to differentiate species...
You also have to wonder maybe the umiak may have sent a small number of ships by different routes to get to this system while its main fleet travelled a more direct route distracting the farseers from spotting the other ships travelling to the same system, there by until it was to late the 3 fast attack fleets didn't recognise they where so badly outnumbered
Re: page 83
Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2011 1:30 pm
by GeoModder
Trantor wrote:GeoModder wrote:Erm, crossing ones T is overtaking the enemy fleet
..and then intercepting their path..
Yes, that follows.
In any case, not exactly the
initial situation on Trafalgar.
Re: page 83
Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2011 1:47 pm
by GeoModder
osmium wrote:hmm missed this earlier.
The issue is that you only have so much acceleration to spend. If you spend it decelerating within firing range you've increased the accuracy of guns pointed at you by a lot. The only counter point will be for those fairly small gunboats that need to get in to like 30 to 50gM because they're effectively 100% hit chances at that range regardless of what they do acceleration wise, they're just in too close for lightspeed lag to help much. This same effect occurs in the super super heavy class ships that once they get into weapons range effectively can't dodge anything (although they should still dodge some to prevent specific parts of the ship [weapons systems, places in the armour that have already been hit etc] from getting targetted). For medium to large size ships with medium to long range Umiak weapons they're still at a long enough range at the effective distance to want to put a significant fraction of their acceleration into dodging.
This furthermore enforces the Umiak tactics that result in jousting as their biggest and smallest ships are not as well suited to matched velocity combat as jousting combat as they're basically sitting ducks in combat range.
-O
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm under the assumption the Umiak already spent quite some time in the Naam system. It follows their fleet(s) in the system can be replenished, including fuel.
And the deceleration phase after crossing the Loroi formation would
normally be for as long as the Loroi ships are within effective Umiak beam range. Once the half light second distance is crossed, it would depend on the type of pursuit vessels. We've seen that the armor of at least some Umiak ships is good enough to deflect Loroi long-range (one light second) fire. Those could lag behind, while the less-protected vessels continue to move out of range, either on inertia or acceleration.
And last of all, the Loroi can't play tag too long. They've got a fixed position to "defend". At least for now.
Re: page 83
Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2011 8:25 pm
by Cdr Straker
osmium wrote:but it wasn't even that, if they just covered say 30% of their full border (like all of their border with Germany, and Belgium plus some). They would have forced the germans to move through a lot mountains. Even IF you're thinking technology hasn't changed it was positively MORONIC to think that leaving the Belgium border unprotected was a good gambit. The money spent on the magnot line was a waste of money unless said line actually forced a german advance to do something different. I don't count rolling unopposed through belgium as something different btw.
-O
And, of course, the
Outsider tie-in here is that Germany accomplished this by attacking and occupying "neutral" nations: first Norway and Denmark, then Belgium and Holland. The Third Reich had no compunction about overrunning unsuspecting and ill-prepared countries to attain a strategic and/or tactical goal. The fact that the allies were not prepared to mount a counteroffensive into Germany at that point, while the bulk of the panzerwaffe and luftwaffe were committed in the north, simply punctuates the lethargy and lack of imagination pervading the allied General Staff.
Lesson: There's no such thing as "Neutrality" when major powers engage in total war.
Re: page 83
Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 12:59 am
by TheUnforsaken
Cdr Straker wrote:osmium wrote:but it wasn't even that, if they just covered say 30% of their full border (like all of their border with Germany, and Belgium plus some). They would have forced the germans to move through a lot mountains. Even IF you're thinking technology hasn't changed it was positively MORONIC to think that leaving the Belgium border unprotected was a good gambit. The money spent on the magnot line was a waste of money unless said line actually forced a german advance to do something different. I don't count rolling unopposed through belgium as something different btw.
-O
And, of course, the
Outsider tie-in here is that Germany accomplished this by attacking and occupying "neutral" nations: first Norway and Denmark, then Belgium and Holland. The Third Reich had no compunction about overrunning unsuspecting and ill-prepared countries to attain a strategic and/or tactical goal. The fact that the allies were not prepared to mount a counteroffensive into Germany at that point, while the bulk of the panzerwaffe and luftwaffe were committed in the north, simply punctuates the lethargy and lack of imagination pervading the allied General Staff.
Lesson: There's no such thing as "Neutrality" when major powers engage in total war.
Actually the French did start an offensive in the early days of the war, advancing several km into Germany and meeting little resistance (since most of the German army was busy in Poland). However, they pulled back almost immediately for no reason I can see. (except perhaps political cowardice: maybe if we let them have Poland they'll stop there
). In any case, we'll never know what might have been.
Re: page 83
Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 1:41 am
by Trantor
Cdr Straker wrote:And, of course, the Outsider tie-in here is that Germany accomplished this by attacking and occupying "neutral" nations: first Norway and Denmark, then Belgium and Holland. The Third Reich had no compunction about overrunning unsuspecting and ill-prepared countries to attain a strategic and/or tactical goal.
Call us "Umiak".
Re: page 83
Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 7:10 am
by NOMAD
Trantor wrote:NOMAD wrote:As the insider article about the war states, the war has been going badly for the loroi with no end in sight. the only clear advantage is fighting near home systems and their far-seeing ability ( which has not worked now, IE the other lost fleets, and is a game changer).
Farseeing didn´t work only on the humans, umiak are still detectable.
that maybe true, but explain to me this, If the Loroi far-seers were able to see in the "dead space" then why weren't the other two fleet able to track and successfully engage the umiak fleets ? It might have to do with that ship the bell uncountered before it was attacked
as for the french attack into Germany, the reason for pulling back might have to do with the pace of the Germany attack. No point in attacking the enemies homeland when their attacking your own core territory.
as for attacking neutral nations: it is unfortunate the warfare has gotten to this point
Re: page 83
Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 7:11 am
by fredgiblet
TheUnforsaken wrote:However, they pulled back almost immediately for no reason I can see
IIRC it was because their forces weren't really mobilized for a full-scale invasion yet. So they wouldn't have had the ability to continue the attack, but they were beyond their defenses, not a good situation for the troops.
Re: page 83
Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 7:53 am
by CptWinters
Especially considering that the troops they advanced with were really only good for garrisoning a trench.
Re: page 83
Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 9:33 am
by GeoModder
Trantor wrote:Cdr Straker wrote:And, of course, the Outsider tie-in here is that Germany accomplished this by attacking and occupying "neutral" nations: first Norway and Denmark, then Belgium and Holland. The Third Reich had no compunction about overrunning unsuspecting and ill-prepared countries to attain a strategic and/or tactical goal.
Call us "Umiak".
Nah, you guys whistle another tune.
Re: page 83
Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 11:44 am
by Geistfuchs
Hi
i found this comic recently and wanted to say that i find it great.
the British and French expected an attack through Belgium and the Netherlands. They had stationed a large part of their troops there. A breakthrough by the Magnotline led to encircle of these troops at Dunkirk.
sorry for the bad grammar.
Re: page 83
Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 6:23 pm
by Trantor
GeoModder wrote:Trantor wrote:Call us "Umiak".
Nah, you guys
whistle another tune.
There´s no better language for swearing or yelling commands.
Re: page 83
Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 8:59 pm
by GeoModder
True, that.
Re: page 83
Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 10:50 pm
by Arioch
A Russian friend onced claimed that Russian is superior for swearing, though he laughingly admitted German was a close second. He probably wouldn't argue about the yelling commands part though (being a Russian Jew).
