Loroi Trade translation request general

[Arioch]

1. What's the difference between loroi for warrior and the other word tiris. I guess when then say that Alex is not a warrior, they use tiris? But what do those words actually mean in their cultural context? Maybe it is similar to the japanese bushi?

I would expect a warrior culture to have a lot of different words for "warrior." English has quite a few: warrior, fighter, soldier, trooper, champion, etc. Loroi means "warrior" but is used mainly to refer to the warrior class or the whole species (sort of like samurai vs. bushi). Tiris is more specific, and in modern use refers to a specific rank.

The lexicon in the Insider hasn't been refreshed in a while, so I should do that soon... when I have the time.

2. Since Trade is pretty static, what does archaic actually mean?

Written Trade is somewhat static, kind of like Latin, but it does drift as society and technology change and meanings of words shift and new words or connotations are needed. But there were times, especially in ancient times, when segments of Loroi culture became illiterate and only used spoken Trade (when they spoke at all), and that resulted in a number of new words that referred to some specific context in that time.

Does Alex have a weird backwater accent/dialect since he learned it from a different source with a different script?

Yes. But his accent in that dialect isn't perfect either, so it's kind of like an Indian person who learned English in Scotland.

How would ancient Trade as written on Soia artifacts sound like compared to "modern" Trade?

Written words sound however you pronounce them, so ancient Trade read aloud by a modern speaker will sound the same as modern Trade. If you're asking how Trade spoken in ancient times compares with the modern dialects, no one knows. Humans have some scholarship that tries to reverse-engineer how ancient speakers of certain languages would have sounded, which is fascinating, but it is speculative as it can never really be proved.

3. Are there any particulalrly colorful curses any Loroi subculture uses? I mean questioning the fidelity of ones maternal ancestors would not work for the Loroi. How about insulting ones body odour?

Any uncomplimentary aspect of a person is a possibility for insult. I think the place to start is to consider what the subculture's most important values are.

4. Do the Loroi have a word for amber or do they even commonly know of such material?

Yes, but the word is the same as for "sap" (ramoi).

5. Why would the Soia create the sidebil, a rhino-sized beast of burden and where do they live?

They didn't. That's a deprecated entry that'll be removed the next time the lexicon is updated.

[Cthulhu]

1. What word did Stillstorm use when she referred to Alex as "It does not look like a warrior"?
2. Is the modern Loroi Trade script the same that the Soia used or is altered? If so, how far? Would a modern Loroi be able to read and understand whatever is written on a Soia artifact?
3. What about the script used by the Orgus, is that a more recent invention and where does it come from?
4. What would be a general term for a sword? Or maybe something like an archaic word describing the very concept of a weapon?
5. There seem to be multiple naming conventions for the spoken names of Loroi. Some have martial names like -blade, -thorn, etc., some more mystic ones like Moonglow, while others have simple, one-word ones like the name of a mineral. I have read that the Loroi get their spoken names after their dirals, but how are they chosen? Is it based on the childs cultural background or is it random?

I know I'm being a bit nitpicky, particularly on parts which you may not have fully fleshed out yet. It's just me trying to breathe a bit of cultural background into my fanfic. I'm writing a role reversal, where a lone Loroi is rescued by a more advanced Humanity. Obviously, she needs to explain her culture, right? Especially since she has to use words, not sanzai.

[Arioch]

What word did Stillstorm use when she referred to Alex as "It does not look like a warrior"?

pirot

Is the modern Loroi Trade script the same that the Soia used or is altered? If so, how far? Would a modern Loroi be able to read and understand whatever is written on a Soia artifact?

Not all of the script on Soia-era artifacts is the same; it appears that the language started to drift even before the Fall. Modern Loroi Trade has some adaptations to the ancient script. A modern Loroi can read the ancient version, though she might not pronounce the words correctly, and she may not understand all of it.

What about the script used by the Orgus, is that a more recent invention and where does it come from?

The Periphery dialect uses a very different script from the Loroi dialect used in the anti-spinward portion of the Local Bubble. It is supposed that the Periphery version came from up-arm.

What would be a general term for a sword? Or maybe something like an archaic word describing the very concept of a weapon?

As I have found to be the case with humanity's lexicon of historical weaponry, most of the names for specific types of swords are either modern inventions or just that subculture's traditional word for "sword." By which I mean that you could use any of the specific names (like nenzit, nezatin, eides, etc.). But if you want to be as generic as possible, you could use nol ("blade"), nolnillar ("bladed weapon"), or roror ("side sword," a weapon worn at the hip).

There seem to be multiple naming conventions for the spoken names of Loroi. Some have martial names like -blade, -thorn, etc., some more mystic ones like Moonglow, while others have simple, one-word ones like the name of a mineral. I have read that the Loroi get their spoken names after their dirals, but how are they chosen? Is it based on the childs cultural background or is it random?

Spoken names are formally assigned as part of the diral graduation ceremony by the group of elders running the training campus. Prior to that, the child would have been called by a nickname or an epithet chosen by her peers (if she had a spoken nickname at all). The name chosen is based on the individual's perceived personality and reputation, often taking into account existing epithets or nicknames, and the nature of her telepathic signature (you can probably guess how Fireblade got her name). Unlike the diral names which are deliberately rude and derogatory, by tradition the elders try to mane the new spoken names sound as cool as possible; some subcultures are superstitious about a warrior's future success being impacted by how cool her name is. A super-badass name may also be a lot to live up to, and may even be seen as a portent of future heroic sacrifice in subcultures that believe in dalid. If you get a pretty name like "Beryl" or "Moonglow," that may be the elders' way of saying, "Well... she has a nice personality."

In contrast, a Loroi who drops out of warrior training will probably be stuck with a derogatory nickname as her spoken name. Fortunately, spoken names are not as important for civilians as they are for warriors.

It is possible for a warrior's name to change during her lifetime, based on heroic achievements (or infamous ones). I imagine that Eighth Dawn's got that name later in life, after some super-awesome incident.

It might seem weird for a Loroi to go without a spoken name for most of her childhood, but I seem to recall reading that in some times and places during human history, especially during hard times of plague and strife, child mortality was so high that they didn't bother naming their children until they survived to a certain age, or give them generic placeholder names (such as in Japan; Taro, Jiro and Saburo are just generic names for first, second, and third sons).

[Cthulhu]

1. What word would refer to a primitive, tribal warrior?
2. How about the phrase "a sword that wields (tries to wield) itself"?
3. So I guess the Trade language predates even the Soia, then?

Generally, a sword does have a special place among weapons, because it was seen as a symbol of status or even social rank. It was difficult to master, expensive to obtain and unlike other weapons had no other usage but being a weapon. Even today, many armies still have ceremonial swords for parades, as awards, or simply as symbols of rank and office. Do the Loroi also have similar ceremonies and customs? A great number of fanfics already sees that as a given. Also, because of their duel culture such a weapon will not have its egdes dulled...

[Arioch]

What word would refer to a primitive, tribal warrior?

The same terms. The caste system predates reunification, there were Soroin & Teidar (Deiner), Tenoin (Taben) and Mizol (Perrein) on their respective planets back into antiquity, and most of the current "throwback" warrior tribes still follow similar caste traditions. To refer to warriors in the distant past or modern throwbacks, you can use the adjective tiboin ("of the old ways").

How about the phrase "a sword that wields (tries to wield) itself"?

rellet neimolad [insert sword choice] ("self-using sword")

So I guess the Trade language predates even the Soia, then?

Not necessarily. The Soia era lasted tens of thousands of years, plenty of time for languages to drift, especially over such a large area.

Keeping in mind that most of the artifacts are from the various subject races of the period, and not necessarily from the Soia themselves.

Generally, a sword does have a special place among weapons, because it was seen as a symbol of status or even social rank. It was difficult to master, expensive to obtain and unlike other weapons had no other usage but being a weapon. Even today, many armies still have ceremonial swords for parades, as awards, or simply as symbols of rank and office. Do the Loroi also have similar ceremonies and customs? A great number of fanfics already sees that as a given. Also, because of their duel culture such a weapon will not have its egdes dulled...

Yes. You may notice that Stillstorm is wearing a dagger rather than a pistol, and uses phrases such as "keep the handle on the blade." She's also a collector of antique weapons, most of which are swords.

[Cthulhu]

1. Do the Loroi have any kind of formal, non-telepathic greeting (maybe from a subculture) and if it exists, what is it called?

2. The word for Banshee or "Nimai", is it based on a legend or maybe a specific telepathic attack technique? If it's not based on anything, then what kind of background story would you prefer?

3. What would Emberwing translate to? I guess that ember would be a different word then blaze or fire?

4. What is the word for the ritual shearing of one's hair? I mean the one denoting dishonor.

5. Does the Teidar wow of vocal silence have any special word for it? Or maybe it's forbidden to vocalize the very concept of it, too?

6. Since the Loroi are left-handed, wouldn't the term starboard refer to the left side of the ship, or am I nitpicking too much? What are the Trade words for those nautical terms?

[GeoModder]

6. Since the Loroi are left-handed, wouldn't the term starboard refer to the left side of the ship, or am I nitpicking too much? What are the Trade words for those nautical terms?

Not necessarily. If the helm of an ancient Loroi (Tabenoid) sailing ship was hung over the right side, it would still be called "steer"(star) "side" (bord). Most sidehung rudders were too heavy to handle with one hand anyway.
Or barring that, if they had the habit of always having "port"side on the left, they'd call it that.

[Cthulhu]

Not necessarily. If the helm of an ancient Loroi (Tabenoid) sailing ship was hung over the right side, it would still be called "steer"(star) "side" (bord). Most sidehung rudders were too heavy to handle with one hand anyway.
Or barring that, if they had the habit of always having "port"side on the left, they'd call it that.

Well, the steering side is on the right, because we humans are right-handed. I doubt that the Loroi made big ships right away, smaller boats would've been the norm for millennia. Those would be steered with an oar or even just a paddle, and the left-handed Loroi would've hung them over the left side. Or maybe they have completely different naming conventions and starboard is just the English translation.
This is not a competition in nitpicking, you know.

[captainsmirk]

Well, the steering side is on the right, because we humans are right-handed. I doubt that the Loroi made big ships right away, smaller boats would've been the norm for millennia. Those would be steered with an oar or even just a paddle, and the left-handed Loroi would've hung them over the left side. Or maybe they have completely different naming conventions and starboard is just the English translation.
This is not a competition in nitpicking, you know.

But irrespective of its etmological origins, in modern terminology Starboard explicitly means the right-hand side of the ship, to avoid exactly the kind of confusion that could be caused by randomly referring to the the left-hand side of alien ship as starboard just because the aliens happen to be majority left-handed.

Given that ships haven't been steered from the right-hand side for centuries (even more unapplicable refering to spaceships) suddenly applying the original etymological meaning of the word rather than its accepted meaning seems odd.

The Loroi trade word for the right-hand side of ship (if there even is a specific equivalent) will translate into English as Starboard whatever its own etymological origins.

[Cthulhu]

But irrespective of its etmological origins, in modern terminology Starboard explicitly means the right-hand side of the ship, to avoid exactly the kind of confusion that could be caused by randomly referring to the the left-hand side of alien ship as starboard just because the aliens happen to be majority left-handed.

But I was asking about the Trade etymological origins of that particular term. It's the translation thread, after all. Maybe there's a standard term for that, maybe the Loroi (re)invented it and maybe, just maybe, that new term may be based on which side the steering paddle of small boats was on.

Given that ships haven't been steered from the right-hand side for centuries (even more unapplicable refering to spaceships) suddenly applying the original etymological meaning of the word rather than its accepted meaning seems odd.

The Loroi trade word for the right-hand side of ship (if there even is a specific equivalent) will translate into English as Starboard whatever its own etymological origins.

A second challenger for the nitpicking championship? Good, the prize will be a nitpick of solid neutronium. Great for mining antimatter ore.

I understand that the most probable explanation is that Arioch did not even think about that particular, tiny detail. He simply wrote it in his native language, English. I hope that, at least, but maybe it's Trade? Anyway, the grand space battle where I saw that term being used first (P.81) was way more important. I just wanted to know whether the Loroi term would have the same logic behind it as the human term does.

[GeoModder]

Okay, sounds like you want to have things absolutely your way, cthulhu.
Have fun with it, I don't I'll bother with your participation on the board anymore.

[captainsmirk]

But I was asking about the Trade etymological origins of that particular term. It's the translation thread, after all. Maybe there's a standard term for that, maybe the Loroi (re)invented it and maybe, just maybe, that new term may be based on which side the steering paddle of small boats was on.

Seems quite unlikely to me that the same derivation would show up in two completely unrelated languages, but not impossible. Even if Loroi-handedness have an effect surely it would be on the Trade word for Port .

I understand that the most probable explanation is that Arioch did not even think about that particular, tiny detail. He simply wrote it in his native language, English. I hope that, at least, but maybe it's Trade? Anyway, the grand space battle where I saw that term being used first (P.81) was way more important. I just wanted to know whether the Loroi term would have the same logic behind it as the human term does.

Also worth remembering that Trade is not actually a Loroi language and so any such terms (even in the Loroi dialect) could still be hang overs from the original Trade language and maybe created by a species without handedness as such (or indeed possibly hands at all )

Still I guess the sides of a ship may be the sort of word that wouldn't survive, however that assumes that just because earth languages have specific terms for those things alien languages will as well (they could just be called left and right, as long as a specific orientation is assumed to avoid confusion).

Thinking about it prior to the invention of radio communication it wouldn't have even been necessary for the Loroi to have spoken words for those things (although words for written records would I guess exist).

[Arioch]

1. Do the Loroi have any kind of formal, non-telepathic greeting (maybe from a subculture) and if it exists, what is it called?

One Loroi greeting another verbally is considered an unfriendly gesture. Greeting someone who is out of telepathy range (such as via radio) is called a "hail" (rales); otherwise, a verbal greeting is either a warning (reiren) or a challenge (laben).

2. The word for Banshee or "Nimai", is it based on a legend or maybe a specific telepathic attack technique? If it's not based on anything, then what kind of background story would you prefer?

It's a mythological reference, but it's also the name of a Taben marine organism. In myth, they are water spirits whose cry calls down storms.

3. What would Emberwing translate to? I guess that ember would be a different word then blaze or fire?

Ember is pedesta. Wing is tinza.

4. What is the word for the ritual shearing of one's hair? I mean the one denoting dishonor.

The term for the diral hair-cutting ritual is sizasad ("shortening"). There is no specific term for an adult cutting off her own hair; it's not a ritual.

5. Does the Teidar wow of vocal silence have any special word for it? Or maybe it's forbidden to vocalize the very concept of it, too?

It's not a vow, it's just a Teidar practice. A Teidar can speak any time she needs to; they're just trained not to. I don't think they'd have a special word for it.

6. Since the Loroi are left-handed, wouldn't the term starboard refer to the left side of the ship, or am I nitpicking too much? What are the Trade words for those nautical terms?

Loroi speech is being translated for the reader by the narrator; it shouldn't be taken literally. The Loroi are not saying words that literally mean "star-board." They're just saying left (tidit) and right (nenes). The narrator is using nautical terms because he's a pilot and those are the terms he uses. Plus it sounds cooler.

[Cthulhu]

Okay, sounds like you want to have things absolutely your way, cthulhu.
Have fun with it, I don't I'll bother with your participation on the board anymore.

Eh, if you can't handle a joke, fine.
I was just thinking that asking about such an insignificant detail will be too much nitpicking already, even without turning it into a discussion about nautical terms. Thus, I spiced my reply up a little.

Seems quite unlikely to me that the same derivation would show up in two completely unrelated languages, but not impossible. Even if Loroi-handedness have an effect surely it would be on the Trade word for Port .
Also worth remembering that Trade is not actually a Loroi language and so any such terms (even in the Loroi dialect) could still be hang overs from the original Trade language and maybe created by a species without handedness as such (or indeed possibly hands at all )

Still I guess the sides of a ship may be the sort of word that wouldn't survive, however that assumes that just because earth languages have specific terms for those things alien languages will as well (they could just be called left and right, as long as a specific orientation is assumed to avoid confusion).

Thinking about it prior to the invention of radio communication it wouldn't have even been necessary for the Loroi to have spoken words for those things (although words for written records would I guess exist).

The advantage of port/starboard that it is absolute, assigned regardless of the viewer's position on the ship. No matter where a sailor stands or which way he faces, he will always know that starboard means not his right, but the ship's (or the imaginary paddle-wielding mate's). Thus, for what is essentially 2D movement on the sea's surface, you'll have special words denoting the 2 sides of a ship, without forcing people to check whose right or left it is right now, every time.

If the Trade terms for those concepts are based on seafaring traditions, you'll end up with 2, no matter what the words themselves are based on. However, if they are coming from the original (space-age) Trade, there will be 4 separate terms for 3D movement. That's because there's no true up or down in space, (except for the planetary disc of a system or even the galactic plane as a point of reference), thus you'll need to establish the up and down of a starship, too.
And if you have a spherical doomstar with a reactionless drive and not a torchship, you'll need 6.

Great, I think I won that award...

There is no specific term for an adult cutting off her own hair; it's not a ritual.

Oh, I thought that since this was part of their culture (Stillstorm did cut her hair to ?atone? for what she considered a personal loss of honor), there would be a ritual and word for it. Well, I can always invent a subculture-specific one.

Loroi speech is being translated for the reader by the narrator; it shouldn't be taken literally. The Loroi are not saying words that literally mean "star-board." They're just saying left (tidit) and right (nenes). The narrator is using nautical terms because he's a pilot and those are the terms he uses. Plus it sounds cooler.

I know it's not meant to be literal, that was just an example on how they could be derived.
But how do they know whose left/right it is over radio? Starboard is meant to be relative to the ship itself, so maybe it's nasi-nenes, "ship-right"?


Sorry for nitpicking, I'll take my neutronium pick and join the Golim in their mining endeavors.

[Arioch]

Oh, I thought that since this was part of their culture (Stillstorm did cut her hair to ?atone? for what she considered a personal loss of honor), there would be a ritual and word for it. Well, I can always invent a subculture-specific one.

Humans are known to do things like slash their wrists; that doesn't mean we necessarily have a ritual word for it. It's not a ritual.

Seppuku is a ritual, and so it has a ritual term.

I know it's not meant to be literal, that was just an example on how they could be derived.
But how do they know whose left/right it is over radio? Starboard is meant to be relative to the ship itself, so maybe it's nasi-nenes, "ship-right"?

I don't think it's very likely that when the someone on a ship calls out "two points to left!" or "enemy off the left bow!" that the helmsman will answer, "What, my left?" If they mean your left, they'll say "your left." It's no different from pilots calling out clock directions. They'll say your six or my six.

[orion1836]

Not all of the script on Soia-era artifacts is the same; it appears that the language started to drift even before the Fall. Modern Loroi Trade has some adaptations to the ancient script. A modern Loroi can read the ancient version, though she might not pronounce the words correctly, and she may not understand all of it.

That's very similar to the relationship between modern and ancient Hebrew.

Spoken names are formally assigned as part of the diral graduation ceremony by the group of elders running the training campus. Prior to that, the child would have been called by a nickname or an epithet chosen by her peers (if she had a spoken nickname at all). The name chosen is based on the individual's perceived personality and reputation, often taking into account existing epithets or nicknames, and the nature of her telepathic signature (you can probably guess how Fireblade got her name). Unlike the diral names which are deliberately rude and derogatory, by tradition the elders try to mane the new spoken names sound as cool as possible; some subcultures are superstitious about a warrior's future success being impacted by how cool her name is. A super-badass name may also be a lot to live up to, and may even be seen as a portent of future heroic sacrifice in subcultures that believe in dalid. If you get a pretty name like "Beryl" or "Moonglow," that may be the elders' way of saying, "Well... she has a nice personality."

In contrast, a Loroi who drops out of warrior training will probably be stuck with a derogatory nickname as her spoken name. Fortunately, spoken names are not as important for civilians as they are for warriors.

It is possible for a warrior's name to change during her lifetime, based on heroic achievements (or infamous ones). I imagine that Eighth Dawn's got that name later in life, after some super-awesome incident.

It might seem weird for a Loroi to go without a spoken name for most of her childhood, but I seem to recall reading that in some times and places during human history, especially during hard times of plague and strife, child mortality was so high that they didn't bother naming their children until they survived to a certain age, or give them generic placeholder names (such as in Japan; Taro, Jiro and Saburo are just generic names for first, second, and third sons).

That's a very interesting bit of lore... and it certainly casts those two characters in a different light. Good on Moonglow for rising as far as she did, even without her elders' vote of confidence.

Callsigns, at least in my experience, are a little of both. They're usually made to sound cool to anyone outside the unit, but those inside know the real story (e.g. ACE = anal cavity explorer).

[Dan Wyatt]

What would be the Trade equivalent of 'God' or 'deity'?
Just soia?

[Keklas Rekobah]

What would be the Trade equivalent of 'God' or 'deity'? Just soia?

My best guess: "Leneda-Niitos" ("Spirit-Above") or some derivation thereof.

[Arioch]

What would be the Trade equivalent of 'God' or 'deity'?
Just soia?

The Trade word for "deity" is poinnat. Soia just means "ancestor."

[Keklas Rekobah]

What would be the Trade equivalent of 'God' or 'deity'? Just soia?

The Trade word for "deity" is poinnat. Soia just means "ancestor."

I would be surprised if the Loroi would ever conceive of a being greater than themselves. Do they have a formal religion surrounding this poinnat, or is theirs more of a spiritual philosophy centered on the concepts of creation, life, and destiny?