Hmm ... the Trade Language seems to be more exacting than I thought at first ...
What do you mean?
I took the word "nial" from your lexicon after not finding the word for "hero" and substituting the synonym "champion" instead. Maybe I looked on the wrong page ... ?
The reason that people are asking for translations in this thread is because most of the lexicon is not on the web page.
After establishing the base of the language with some key words, I ran a program to randomly generate words against an English lexicon using appropriate phonemes for Trade. This spreadsheet has about 3400 entries, but because they're random, the words can be nonsensical or contradictory, so they need to be tweaked and validated manually. I periodically update the lexicon on the webpage with words marked as validated, but that's a somewhat manual process as well.
A couple of minor questions:
1. The Barsam term "Zulotchi", that denotes the most corrupt servants of the Gatherers, does it have any particular meaning in Trade as of itself?
2. Is there any special word for a senior warrior, or for the celebration that is held upon reaching this status after 8 years of graduating from the caste academy?
3. Is there any legend or concept of overcoming the personification of a great challenge? I guess that the Loroi would not wait for Prometheus to return the gift of fire to them, for example, but to go and challenge some mythic beast that guards it instead.
1. The Barsam term "Zulotchi", that denotes the most corrupt servants of the Gatherers, does it have any particular meaning in Trade as of itself?
zulotchi is a term in one of the Barsam languages (derived from Trade, but having substantially diverged) meaning literally "sentinel," but used more commonly to mean "traitor."
2. Is there any special word for a senior warrior, or for the celebration that is held upon reaching this status after 8 years of graduating from the caste academy?
The celebration is called the lazes tozon minat ("eighth year ceremony;" yes, Loroi are that literal), but it does not confer a particular title.
3. Is there any legend or concept of overcoming the personification of a great challenge? I guess that the Loroi would not wait for Prometheus to return the gift of fire to them, for example, but to go and challenge some mythic beast that guards it instead.
A lot of the legends are about overcoming great challenges. But it's unusual for Loroi to make literary references or to speak in metaphor; they are usually very direct and literal.
zulotchi is a term in one of the Barsam languages (derived from Trade, but having substantially diverged) meaning literally "sentinel," but used more commonly to mean "traitor."
Are they fleshed out and if so, what do they look like? Or is their look even known (in-universe)? Will Alex meet one, perhaps even in the next page?
A lot of the legends are about overcoming great challenges. But it's unusual for Loroi to make literary references or to speak in metaphor; they are usually very direct and literal.
But they still have mythic beasts, sometimes even representing the forces of nature, or are all those derived from legends about pre-fall aliens?
zulotchi is a term in one of the Barsam languages (derived from Trade, but having substantially diverged) meaning literally "sentinel," but used more commonly to mean "traitor."
Are they fleshed out and if so, what do they look like? Or is their look even known (in-universe)? Will Alex meet one, perhaps even in the next page?
I think these were the entities that defeated the Soia-Lirons.
zulotchi is a term in one of the Barsam languages (derived from Trade, but having substantially diverged) meaning literally "sentinel," but used more commonly to mean "traitor."
Are they fleshed out and if so, what do they look like? Or is their look even known (in-universe)?
I think these were the entities that defeated the Soia-Lirons.
The zulotchi take various forms in different versions of the texts, but the common thread is that they were fallen servants of the Gatherers (from which is inferred that they were Soia-liron).
A lot of the legends are about overcoming great challenges. But it's unusual for Loroi to make literary references or to speak in metaphor; they are usually very direct and literal.
But they still have mythic beasts, sometimes even representing the forces of nature, or are all those derived from legends about pre-fall aliens?
I don't think they would have any way of knowing the difference. Loroi scholars work under the assumption that the tales are based on real persons and events, since telepathic storytellers don't lie. Tales will still drift in the retelling over the generations, especially when stories about TL12 societies and hardware are told to TL2 hunter-gatherers, and so they do read a lot like our own myths. I think it's very hard to say with any degree of certainty what the sources of our myths are... I cringe when watching history documentaries arguing over which historical figure was the "real" Robin Hood or King Arthur, when the answer is more likely an amalgam of some, all or none of them.
I took the word "nial" from your lexicon after not finding the word for "hero" and substituting the synonym "champion" instead. Maybe I looked on the wrong page ... ?
The reason that people are asking for translations in this thread is because most of the lexicon is not on the web page.
After establishing the base of the language with some key words, I ran a program to randomly generate words against an English lexicon using appropriate phonemes for Trade. This spreadsheet has about 3400 entries, but because they're random, the words can be nonsensical or contradictory, so they need to be tweaked and validated manually. I periodically update the lexicon on the webpage with words marked as validated, but that's a somewhat manual process as well.
Have you ever given Vulgar a spin? It's kinda like a modern-day Langmaker.
Trade wouldn't have a name for a particular species of Earth trees.
Isn't derred reed a name of an earth plant?
It is, but I think that as with terms like "grass" or "tree," it's a reasonable translation for a class of organisms with certain characteristics. "Ash," "oak," etc. are rather specific.
Does Trade have any "stock" greetings like "Aloha", "Be seeing you", "Have a nice day", or "Live Long and Prosper"?
The Loroi do not have ritualized friendly verbal greetings, since among the telepathic Loroi a verbal greeting denotes a lack of trust at best, or outright hostility at worst. A hostile verbal greeting is specific and literal to the situation, and not ritualized.
Verbal messages sent via means that telepathy cannot duplicate (such as via radio or over a public address system) usually begin with Toi-lal! ("Attention!") or Robinrad! ("Alert!").
Does Trade have any "stock" greetings like "Aloha", "Be seeing you", "Have a nice day", or "Live Long and Prosper"?
The Loroi do not have ritualized friendly verbal greetings, since among the telepathic Loroi a verbal greeting denotes a lack of trust at best, or outright hostility at worst. A hostile verbal greeting is specific and literal to the situation, and not ritualized.
Even between (for example) a Loroi Merchant and her best and favorite Barsam customers?
Verbal messages sent via means that telepathy cannot duplicate (such as via radio or over a public address system) usually begin with Toi-lal! ("Attention!") or Robinrad! ("Alert!").
That would make birth announcements seem like combat alerts, eh?
"Attention! Arriving infant! Stand by for details!"
“Qua is the sine qua non of sine qua non qua sine qua non.” -- Attributed to many
Even between (for example) a Loroi Merchant and her best and favorite Barsam customers?
A Loroi merchant or expatriate might adopt foreign customs, but the usual friendly Loroi greeting to a non-telepath is just to smile and maybe wave and/or call out the other person's name. (I have the feeling that the waving gesture is going to be pretty much universal; it's a very straightforward way to get someone's attention.)
The customary Barsam greeting, translated into Trade, is "You are seen" (Lozen mé saieri). An introductory greeting, such as Mozin demonstrates on page 57, is "You see before you [name and title]" (Lozen mé [name and title] tó pilet saie).
I guess for a species that does not shake hands or hug, a smile and a wave would have to be as far as non-senzai greetings go. I would then assume that business negotiations with non-senzai people would take place at arm's length or greater, and most likely by vid-link. Is that a correct assumption?
“Qua is the sine qua non of sine qua non qua sine qua non.” -- Attributed to many
I would then assume that business negotiations with non-senzai people would take place at arm's length or greater, and most likely by vid-link. Is that a correct assumption?
Not necessarily. Most Loroi don't seek out the company of aliens, but Loroi aren't afraid to be in the presence of aliens, and if the aliens have any degree of telepathic susceptibility, it's to the Loroi advantage to meet in person. And if it's your job to deal with aliens, a Mizol or analogous civilian business negotiator can be trained in and fluent with all necessary communications protocols. I'm just saying that these protocols will probably be mainly alien rather than Loroi customs.
I think that the question was more about standard Trade, not the Loroi version. An artificial "lingua franca" should have something like a universal greeting pattern that is as inoffensive to various alien species as possible. They may not have genders, ranks or even the concept of an individual, therefore something along the lines of "Hail, fellow sentients" should be used?
