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Loroi sexuality
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Author:  Trantor [ Wed Dec 26, 2012 3:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Loroi sexuality

Jericho wrote:
Trantor wrote:
Yes, their cannonfodder for the next war, if either Humans or Loroi are playing stoopid.

What war? Are you certain that humanity and the loroi will go to war?

Pretty much, yes. Life is no fairy tale.


Jericho wrote:
If we have survived the war with the umiak together then why would we feel the need to fight one another?

Remember WW2. And what followed? Right, the cold war.
After the war is before the war. History always repeats itself.

Author:  Jericho [ Wed Dec 26, 2012 3:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Loroi sexuality

Trantor wrote:
Pretty much, yes. Life is no fairy tale.


Quote:
Remember WW2. And what followed? Right, the cold war.
After the war is before the war. History always repeats itself.


First of all: Life is no fairytail but outsider is.

Second of all: You mean the aftermath is two massive political blocks of power will stop talking to eachother and scare the bystanders with the prospect of nuclear war before the other collapses because of political and economic instability.

What makes you think that hostility is the natural outcome of this conflict. Who knows maybe we'll earn their respect as comrades in arms and human culture will seep in to the loroi and empower the civillian class.

Author:  Trantor [ Wed Dec 26, 2012 3:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Loroi sexuality

Jericho wrote:
First of all: Life is no fairytail but outsider is.

O_o, pitfall-alarm!


Jericho wrote:
Second of all: You mean the aftermath is two massive political blocks of power will stop talking to eachother and scare the bystanders with the prospect of nuclear war before the other collapses because of political and economic instability.

That´s earth´s history. Here we will have two ruined blocks, and a third party with not so much damage.


Jericho wrote:
What makes you think that hostility is the natural outcome of this conflict. Who knows maybe we'll earn their respect as comrades in arms and human culture will seep in to the loroi and empower the civillian class.

Only for a short period. After the cold war there were 12 years of peace and prosperity, and then came 9/11. Since then we´re on our way down the sink.
Life´s no fairy tale. *shrug*

Author:  fredgiblet [ Wed Dec 26, 2012 3:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Loroi sexuality

Trantor wrote:
Now and in the next few decades, yes. But later, when we overtake them in tech?


I don't think you understand what I meant. I meant that trying to get us to fight hot blue space elves, particularly once we've got a degree of integration of our societies, isn't going to be easy. If the Loroi aren't stupid they'll have a bunch of people assigned to be celebrities in human society pretty quickly (and easily). Pitting us against them won't be simple.

In addition to that I expect that we'll be allowed a token navy for our pride, but we'll be vastly outnumbered and our technology will be integrated into the Loroi fleet simultaneously or before it's allowed into ours. We won't have the technology to beat them because a condition of alliance will be them getting everything we make.

The only way the Historians will be able to pit us against the Loroi will be to give us technology early (before we develop it ourselves) and ingratiate themselves with us early (which won't be easy) to make us always keep the Loroi at arm's length.

Author:  Jericho [ Wed Dec 26, 2012 4:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Loroi sexuality

Trantor wrote:
That´s earth´s history. Here we will have two ruined blocks, and a third party with not so much damage.

Only for a short period. After the cold war there were 12 years of peace and prosperity, and then came 9/11. Since then we´re on our way down the sink.
Life´s no fairy tale. *shrug*


First: I don't know if you know something i don't know about the plot. But what make's you assume that humans will escape unscathed.

Second: You argue against me for using earths history as a model of reasoning through your arguments (which is no easy task)
but in the next piece you use the very same model. Hypocrisy much :roll:.

Third: 9/11 was caused by islamic fundamentalist's in response to western influence in the middle east and religous fervor. The cold war was fought between nato(USA) and soviet(Russia) for political dominance over the world. Two different kind of conflicts, many variables differ.

Fourth: who cares if war alwasy follow peace. No one can say that it will occur between the loroi and humanity (which is what we're discussing i presume). I'm beginning to think you are rather hoping humanity will go to war with the loroi for reasons i can't understand.

Author:  Jericho [ Wed Dec 26, 2012 4:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Loroi sexuality

fredgiblet wrote:
I don't think you understand what I meant. I meant that trying to get us to fight hot blue space elves, particularly once we've got a degree of integration of our societies, isn't going to be easy. If the Loroi aren't stupid they'll have a bunch of people assigned to be celebrities in human society pretty quickly (and easily). Pitting us against them won't be simple.

In addition to that I expect that we'll be allowed a token navy for our pride, but we'll be vastly outnumbered and our technology will be integrated into the Loroi fleet simultaneously or before it's allowed into ours. We won't have the technology to beat them because a condition of alliance will be them getting everything we make.

The only way the Historians will be able to pit us against the Loroi will be to give us technology early (before we develop it ourselves) and ingratiate themselves with us early (which won't be easy) to make us always keep the Loroi at arm's length.


First: what makes you think that we'd share technology with the loroi?

Second: What makes you think we won't build secret fleets on undisclosed locations (finding these location could be a task for the scout corps post war)?

Author:  Trantor [ Wed Dec 26, 2012 4:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Loroi sexuality

fredgiblet wrote:
Trantor wrote:
Now and in the next few decades, yes. But later, when we overtake them in tech?

I don't think you understand what I meant. I meant that trying to get us to fight hot blue space elves, particularly once we've got a degree of integration of our societies, isn't going to be easy. If the Loroi aren't stupid they'll have a bunch of people assigned to be celebrities in human society pretty quickly (and easily). Pitting us against them won't be simple.

It will go down the sink. In the short or in the long run. There´s enough potential for friction.


fredgiblet wrote:
In addition to that I expect that we'll be allowed a token navy for our pride, but we'll be vastly outnumbered and our technology will be integrated into the Loroi fleet simultaneously or before it's allowed into ours. We won't have the technology to beat them because a condition of alliance will be them getting everything we make.

We would be stoopid to agree on terms like this.


fredgiblet wrote:
The only way the Historians will be able to pit us against the Loroi will be to give us technology early (before we develop it ourselves) and ingratiate themselves with us early (which won't be easy) to make us always keep the Loroi at arm's length.

The Historians are quite unscathed until now, whereas the Loroi are on the brink of collapse.
The Historians are in a better position for initiative.

Author:  Suederwind [ Wed Dec 26, 2012 4:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Loroi sexuality

Quote:
First: what makes you think that we'd share technology with the loroi?

What kind of technology should we share with them, that they don´t already have? The secret of brewing the perfect beer? :lol:

Quote:
Second: What makes you think we won't build secret fleets on undisclosed locations (finding these location could be a task for the scout corps post war)?

I would say not enought resources and time.

Author:  Trantor [ Wed Dec 26, 2012 4:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Loroi sexuality

Suederwind wrote:
...beer? :lol:

Chocolate. ;)

Author:  Jericho [ Wed Dec 26, 2012 4:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Loroi sexuality

Suederwind wrote:
What kind of technology should we share with them, that they don´t already have? The secret of brewing the perfect beer? :lol:


We value science and we're capable. If given the model of a historian plasma focus we'd probably be able to replicate it perfectly much quicker than the loroi.

And I don't see why we would share our perfect beer with them. They´ll get that secret over our cold dead :twisted:.

Quote:
I would say not enought resources and time.


For what... Time for what?

Trantor wrote:
Chocolate. ;)


I honestly believe that a species with a matriarchy would already know the secret of chocolate ( and no one can convince me of otherwise).

Author:  Trantor [ Wed Dec 26, 2012 4:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Loroi sexuality

Jericho wrote:
First: I don't know if you know something i don't know about the plot. But what make's you assume that humans will escape unscathed.

I wasn´t talking about Humanity...


Jericho wrote:
Second: You argue against me for using earths history as a model of reasoning through your arguments (which is no easy task)
but in the next piece you use the very same model. Hypocrisy much :roll:.

You sure nothing´s lost in translation or so? :|


Jericho wrote:
Third: 9/11 was caused by islamic fundamentalist's

That´s the official version only.
According to the two universal truths (Cui bono/Follow the money) there´s mebbe another story behind.


Jericho wrote:
in response to western influence in the middle east and religous fervor. The cold war was fought between nato(USA) and soviet(Russia) for political dominance over the world. Two different kind of conflicts, many variables differ.

No, the pattern is the same.


Jericho wrote:
Fourth: who cares if war alwasy follow peace. No one can say that it will occur between the loroi and humanity (which is what we're discussing i presume).

Not directly. But later. Or much later. Which is then of no matter to this story.


Jericho wrote:
I'm beginning to think you are rather hoping humanity will go to war with the loroi for reasons i can't understand.

You assume too much.

Author:  fredgiblet [ Wed Dec 26, 2012 4:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Loroi sexuality

Jericho wrote:
First: what makes you think that we'd share technology with the loroi?


We have two things to offer, one of them is minor and useful in the short-term, the other is major and useful in the long-term. If we withhold the major, long-term advantage then they have little reason to give us any concessions. They will probably recognize the technological advantage shortly and will push that as a major negotiating point. If we don't agree to share technology we will be agreeing to be exterminated.

Additionally the Loroi will play a major part in our science and engineering for the next several years. We will be learning most of our technology from them for a while so their STEM people will be part of our teams. Even if we try to withhold tech espionage will be trivial for some time.

Quote:
Second: What makes you think we won't build secret fleets on undisclosed locations (finding these location could be a task for the scout corps post war)?


The amount of resources required to do so will be immense and largely pushed towards the war effort. When the war ends the Loroi will almost certainly have a massive fleet since production won't stop until it's over even as losses drop, we won't be able to hide a push large enough to be worthwhile, and if we do try to hide something like that and get caught we're hosed.

Trantor wrote:
It will go down the sink. In the short or in the long run. There´s enough potential for friction.


Just like there was plenty of potential for friction between the US and Japan after WW2 and how that boiled over...oh wait. OK, so there was plenty of room for friction between the US and Germany after WW2 and that went south...oh, right.

Is there a chance of a war? Absolutely. But we'd have to stand to gain more than we lose, and from where I'm standing we wouldn't. We'd be trading one master for another, unless you think the Historians would be subservient to us, in which case why would they pick us over the Loroi? We might be more pleasant to deal with, but we're not likely to leave them alone in the long-run either.

Quote:
We would be stoopid to agree on terms like this.


Do you have another option? Do you think the Loroi will agree to anything else? Do you think the Umiak will? We don't have a fleet large enough or enough short-term value to set the terms of the negotiation, nor to stand alone. We will NOT be allowed to have a large fleet regardless of who we side with, and arguing that point will simply mean death.


Quote:
The Historians are quite unscathed until now, whereas the Loroi are on the brink of collapse.
The Historians are in a better position for initiative.


The Historians don't have a presence, the Loroi do. Unless the Historians are going to break with the Loroi and throw in with us in the short-term (which would be retarded) we will be close with the Loroi by the time the Historians try to pull anything.

Suederwind wrote:
What kind of technology should we share with them, that they don´t already have? The secret of brewing the perfect beer? :lol:


In the short-term, nothing, but from what's been described we're one of the top tech-gaining species in the setting. Give us some assistance and a decade or two and we'll be the Outsider version of Japan.

Author:  Hālian [ Wed Dec 26, 2012 4:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Loroi sexuality

Suederwind wrote:
Quote:
First: what makes you think that we'd share technology with the loroi?

What kind of technology should we share with them, that they don´t already have?


"This is America. We don't just make things you wan't, we make things you didn't know you want. Like the spoon-fork -- spray cheese -- and jeans made out of sweatpants!"

Author:  Jericho [ Wed Dec 26, 2012 4:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Loroi sexuality

Trantor wrote:
I wasn´t talking about Humanity...


But then why do you assume that conflict between humanity and the loroi is inevitable outcome?


Quote:
You sure nothing´s lost in translation or so?


Nope show me.

Quote:
That´s the official version only. According to the two unversal truths (Cui bono/Follow the money) there´s mebbe another story behind.


Oh great a conspiracy theorist.


Quote:
No, the pattern is the same.


Yes the pattern is conflict but the combatants are different. Motivations are different. the way they fight is different. you can't make broad generalisations like that without motivating your answer.


Quote:
Not directly. But later. Or much later. Which is then of no matter to this story.


And you're basing this assumption on what evidence?


Quote:
You assume too much.


You're just trolling me aren't you?

Author:  Jericho [ Wed Dec 26, 2012 4:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Loroi sexuality

fredgiblet wrote:

We have two things to offer, one of them is minor and useful in the short-term, the other is major and useful in the long-term. If we withhold the major, long-term advantage then they have little reason to give us any concessions. They will probably recognize the technological advantage shortly and will push that as a major negotiating point. If we don't agree to share technology we will be agreeing to be exterminated.

Additionally the Loroi will play a major part in our science and engineering for the next several years. We will be learning most of our technology from them for a while so their STEM people will be part of our teams. Even if we try to withhold tech espionage will be trivial for some time.


The amount of resources required to do so will be immense and largely pushed towards the war effort. When the war ends the Loroi will almost certainly have a massive fleet since production won't stop until it's over even as losses drop, we won't be able to hide a push large enough to be worthwhile, and if we do try to hide something like that and get caught we're hosed.




You're entire reasoning is based on three falsehoods
First: you assume that we'll tell them what we're up to.
Second: You assume we can't keep it hidden.
Thirldy: You assume that we'll commit our full force too the war effort.

Author:  Trantor [ Wed Dec 26, 2012 5:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Loroi sexuality

fredgiblet wrote:
Trantor wrote:
It will go down the sink. In the short or in the long run. There´s enough potential for friction.

Just like there was plenty of potential for friction between the US and Japan after WW2 and how that boiled over...oh wait. OK, so there was plenty of room for friction between the US and Germany after WW2 and that went south...oh, right.

Uh, you seem to be not quite up to date how Japan and Germany were like after the war. Japan was almost, Germany entirely destroyed.
Plus you Gringos had the bomb. We were/are basically the 51st and 52nd state of the US.

But here in the Outsiderverse we will presumably have a huge pile of dead bugs, a financially ruined Loroi society (Britain after WW2 anyone?), a scarred Humanity, and some pretty unscarred Historians. And some other supporting actors on the scene (Barsam etc).


fredgiblet wrote:
Quote:
We would be stoopid to agree on terms like this.

Do you have another option?

Historians?


fredgiblet wrote:
Do you think the Loroi will agree to anything else?

We have to be careful (a task for our top diplomats) and hope that the developement of the war will leave more room to manouver.

But even now i don´t see the Loroi as the real superpower. The Historians have more firepower and they play a vicious game.


fredgiblet wrote:
Quote:
The Historians are quite unscathed until now, whereas the Loroi are on the brink of collapse.
The Historians are in a better position for initiative.

The Historians don't have a presence, the Loroi do.

Can you please explain?


fredgiblet wrote:
Unless the Historians are going to break with the Loroi and throw in with us in the short-term (which would be retarded) we will be close with the Loroi by the time the Historians try to pull anything.

Why so?


fredgiblet wrote:
Give us some assistance and a decade or two and we'll be the Outsider version of Japan.

A heartily "boo" from Germany!

:mrgreen:

Author:  Trantor [ Wed Dec 26, 2012 5:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Loroi sexuality

Jericho wrote:
Oh great a conspiracy theorist.

At least we have more fun than those who believe and obey. :mrgreen:


Jericho wrote:
Quote:
No, the pattern is the same.

Yes the pattern is conflict but the combatants are different. Motivations are different. the way they fight is different. you can't make broad generalisations like that without motivating your answer.

Do you understand the meaning of "pattern"?


Jericho wrote:
You're just trolling me aren't you?

Image

Author:  sunphoenix [ Wed Dec 26, 2012 5:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Loroi sexuality

...I think we've gotten off subject here.

Author:  Jericho [ Wed Dec 26, 2012 5:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Loroi sexuality

Trantor wrote:
At least we have more fun than those who believe and obey. :mrgreen:


Yes and i hear the sunsets at the loony bin is quite lovely this time of the year :).


Quote:
Do you understand the meaning of "pattern"?


Yes do you? If you do please remember to motivate your answer since you've had a very poor record of it as of late.

And lastly: Are you doubting whether or not i'm serously asking if you are trolling me or are you doubting the seriousness of your trolling?

Author:  Jericho [ Wed Dec 26, 2012 5:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Loroi sexuality

sunphoenix wrote:
...I think we've gotten off subject here.


Good sir i don't know where your you've gotten said assumption from.

Author:  Trantor [ Wed Dec 26, 2012 5:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Loroi sexuality

Jericho wrote:
Trantor wrote:
At least we have more fun than those who believe and obey. :mrgreen:


Yes and i hear the sunsets at the loony bin is quite lovely this time of the year :).


Quote:
Do you understand the meaning of "pattern"?


Yes do you? If you do please remember to motivate your answer since you've had a very poor record of it as of late.

And lastly: Are you doubting whether or not i'm serously asking if you are trolling me or are you doubting the seriousness of your trolling?

One question: Are you sober?

Author:  Jericho [ Wed Dec 26, 2012 5:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Loroi sexuality

Trantor wrote:
One question: Are you sober?


Do you doubt it? If so why?

Author:  Trantor [ Wed Dec 26, 2012 5:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Loroi sexuality

Yes or no?

Author:  Jericho [ Wed Dec 26, 2012 5:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Loroi sexuality

Trantor wrote:
Yes or no?


This is not question is it?

But if you have to know yes.

Author:  Suederwind [ Wed Dec 26, 2012 5:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Loroi sexuality

sunphoenix wrote:
...I think we've gotten off subject here.


Indeed! :oops:

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