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Loroi sexuality 
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Post Re: Loroi sexuality
Jericho wrote:
First: Keeping a secret is way easier than obtaining the truth. If you don't want them to find out then don't talk to them. without faster than light sensors keeping track on what happens in a system without fleet in every corner. I don't think they'll commit that large of a force to one species if they are smart by your standards. Unless they immediately suspect that we are planning something behind their back and are a threat worhty of considiration they'll be none the wiser. and don't bother with spies alien informants aren't that efficient.


Too late, we are talking to them. The Loroi will have a presence in our systems, they will have to since the Umiak are likely to run into us in the near future. At minimum we'll have a small task force, likely we'll have that task force plus a constant trickle of cargo ships going all over the place. They also have plenty of reason to have scouts staging from our systems as expansion is an ongoing process. They already have strong reasons to distrust us and though we don't, yet, pose a direct military threat to them our abilities will make us a threat if we get technological parity. They can prevent us from gaining technological parity, but if they're going to do that they might as well kill us since it will be easier and keeping us from teching up will eliminate our greatest value.

Quote:
Second: You must motivate to me how they'll find out. Since your entire argument is based on the assumption that they do but you never explain why. Please don't bother responding if you can't answer this one point.


The operation you're talking about is enormous, building a fleet that is capable of taking on the Loroi is going to require hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of people and tens of thousands of tons of material. You're proposing we'll move all of that without being noticed. As I stated before the Loroi will have a presence in our systems, they will be here and they WILL be watching everything we do unless we gain a LOT of trust in a short time. If we build your fleet in our main systems the Loroi won't even have to work to see it, if we build them in a un-settled system we now have dozens more shipments going to a supposedly empty system then we had going before, and of course the Loroi will accept any explanation we give at face value and not take a look, right? No, they'll be poking around all the time, their fleets will make rounds and check border systems, their scouts and cargo ships will be going through our systems all the time

Quote:
Third: So what if it's going to take time. Time is on our side. You do not know how long this war will last. As long as the loroi are going strong we're winning because the longer the war takes the more time we have to strengthen ourselves. The only problem with moving materials and equipment is if the loroi know how much we can produce for them and they're suspecting we arent filling the bill. Again how would they know.


Time isn't on our side. Every day there's another chance for the Loroi to stumble on our magically hidden shipbuilding facilities, another day where our economies become more interdependent, another day where we have people growing more comfortable with the status quo and less interested in changing it, another day for a new generation to grow up who don't see a problem with being part of the Loroi Union another day for our politicians to get an offer they can't refuse from the Loroi. Or worse, another day where we're holding back and the Loroi are losing (unless you think the Umiak are a better choice). Time is NOT on our side.

Quote:
Fifth: I don't know if you are arguing for my position or against me. You say that if the loroi are smart they'll leave us to handle our own affairs. How does this not help my position? You've just presented the window of opportunity for exactly what i'm proposing.


They aren't going to meddle (much) in our culture, obviously their presence will have an effect, and I highly doubt that our controllers (as in the people behind our OWN cultural development) won't make a few Loroi celebrities in human society and those will of course be used by the Loroi as well. But they aren't going to be telling us much in the way of how we have to live our lives. They WILL be watching, constantly. Earth will probably end up with a concentration of Mizol higher than any other planet except Perrein, most of them likely disguised as civilian contractors of their own. We will probably have more freedom than their other client races, but the cost of that will be that we will be analyzed more than their other client races.

Jericho wrote:
As i said in the very same piece that you conviently ignored they aren't that effective. A spies efficiency is determined by their ability to blend in to the society. I would think there is nothing easier than preventing an alien spy access to information that you don't want them have.


It's not as simple as that. Do you think Robert Hanssen didn't know he was dealing with Russians? The Loroi will have a more difficult time sneaking in, sure, but the most damaging breaches have usually been when someone who was already in switched sides. Additionally unless you're going the Trantor route and claiming we'll get the Historians to give us tech the Loroi don't NEED to sneak in, they'll already be a major part of our STEM fields for some time. We could, of course, kick them out the second we reach parity, that won't be suspicious at all.

Quote:
True but isn't that the case of every major operation regardless. There are of course operating procedures and protocols in place to make sure that one traitor can't do anything withput arousing suspicion among their peers.


ALL they would have to do is find a Loroi and say "we're building a fleet". You can't prevent them from doing that without either cloistering them for the entire time the project takes or never letting a Loroi speak with a human. Good luck finding hundreds of thousands of people willing to agree to spend the next 10 years of their lives working in a complete blackout. The procedures you're talking about might prevent them from knowing how many, might prevent them from knowing exactly where, but the Loroi don't need that information, all they need is the knowledge that it's happening, they can make the rest come to light.

Jericho wrote:
And traitors... really? What would they offer us that would convince anyone that it's a good idea to jepordise their nations future, their career, their families safety etc etc.


Simple, all they have to do is find someone who thinks that what YOU are proposing jeopardizes their nations future, their career and the their families safety. It won't be hard since what you're proposing DOES. You can argue that it's the better choice of course, but not everyone will see it that way.

As for what they are offering, you've got all the same things that people turn for now, money, love (or sex) and power.


Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:08 pm
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Post Re: Loroi sexuality
Trantor wrote:
The out-tech part comes from the Historians.


Ah, so the Historians are going to hand us tech and the Loroi won't know or care about it, gotcha.

Quote:
The Loroi are crazy witches. We spoiled their fairy tales just by our very existance. They will come for us sooner or later. I can´t believe that you fail to see the necessity to prepare for that war.


When you're starting as far behind as we are and the preparations are as likely to get you killed I don't think it's such a great idea. If we're valuable they won't kill us, even if they don't really like us. If we are a threat they will kill us immediately. We plan for the war by making ourselves indispensable so there won't be one. Eventually they'll get over themselves and your fear of them killing us because we show they aren't as special as they wanted to be goes away.

Your plan has a chance of lowering the long-term threat against us somewhat, but in the meantime dramatically increases our threat level. I see this as betting our lives on drawing an inside straight, when we can fold instead and join forces.

Quote:
In a battle it´s all about firepower. If you outgun your opponent, you win.


Winter War. Sometimes you lose because the other guys are better than you. Maybe they don't have the same firepower, but they know how to use what they have better. The Loroi have been doing space war for centuries and they certainly have some very experienced people at the moment. We have nothing. We've probably never fired a shot except for warning shots to suspected smugglers.

Also you're looking at the same issue Jericho is, building a fleet in secret is going to be extremely tough, especially since you're talking about teching up to an even higher level than the Loroi.

Quote:
Exactly. The Historians will provide that.


Maybe. Maybe they were the ones who killed the 'Bell, maybe they don't want us to be here because we spoil their other plans. Maybe they use this as a chance to turn the Loroi against us and wipe us out. It's just as plausible as what you're suggesting.

Quote:
And of course they won´t give us their latest tech, but just enough to be ahead of the elves.


We'll still take years to get a grasp on it and be decades behind on production. Additionally we have the disadvantage of not having a totalitarian government that can kick everyone in the balls and say "you're in the navy now!" and make it stick.


Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:58 pm
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Post Re: Loroi sexuality
Yeah, keeping the construction of an entire galaxy conquering fleet secret would be pretty difficult. But how about keeping the construction of (or the exact nature of) a few colony ships secret?

During Construction : "Those? Oh, yeah, we're building some long range supply ships." (Loroi telepathy detects no falsehood. Well, detects nothing at all, really)

During Loading : "These sealed crates and all those people? Supplies and labor replacement for the mining operation at Uninhabited System X." (Loroi don't insist on opening the crates because we are their allies, and Camp X regularly gets supplies and replacements.)

During Departure : "Armed escort? No, it is a milk-run from here to Camp X. The whole run is well behind the lines." (Loroi don't detail a ship or ships anyway because warships are still in high demand, due to the ongoing war.)

After Departure : : "Our supply ship to Camp X has failed to report in. We've detailed some of our crappy ships that are not useful for front line duties to search for it. Hopefully it has just had a breakdown, rather than a bad jump." (Loroi roll their eyes at non-Loroi incompetence)

Ship never found... and the complement of young people, frozen embryos, colony supplies, industrial equipment, etc, are off into the deep dark to found a distant secret colony so all of Humanity's eggs are not in baskets the Loroi know about. Sure its a risky venture for the colonists, but big stakes (continuation of the species) are on the table.


Said colony has a large slower than light receiver included, and keeps an eye on Earth. Sure, the information is decades or centuries out of date, but that's OK. We'd want at least a good century of alliance with genocidal aliens before really trusting them not to glass us anyway. On the other hand, if Earth goes off-line amid panicked reports of Loroi betrayal, well, the colony then contacts (or starts sending out scouts to find) the Umiak and throw in with them.


Thu Dec 27, 2012 6:07 pm
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Post Re: Loroi sexuality
Plausible. But building a colony is very expensive and risky, building one with no direct support would be...difficult. Also you'd need to scout a habitable planet first since sending them out with no destination would be borderline suicide.


Thu Dec 27, 2012 6:18 pm
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Post Re: Loroi sexuality
fredgiblet wrote:

Too late, we are talking to them. The Loroi will have a presence in our systems, they will have to since the Umiak are likely to run into us in the near future. At minimum we'll have a small task force, likely we'll have that task force plus a constant trickle of cargo ships going all over the place. They also have plenty of reason to have scouts staging from our systems as expansion is an ongoing process. They already have strong reasons to distrust us and though we don't, yet, pose a direct military threat to them our abilities will make us a threat if we get technological parity. They can prevent us from gaining technological parity, but if they're going to do that they might as well kill us since it will be easier and keeping us from teching up will eliminate our greatest value.


The operation you're talking about is enormous, building a fleet that is capable of taking on the Loroi is going to require hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of people and tens of thousands of tons of material. You're proposing we'll move all of that without being noticed. As I stated before the Loroi will have a presence in our systems, they will be here and they WILL be watching everything we do unless we gain a LOT of trust in a short time. If we build your fleet in our main systems the Loroi won't even have to work to see it, if we build them in a un-settled system we now have dozens more shipments going to a supposedly empty system then we had going before, and of course the Loroi will accept any explanation we give at face value and not take a look, right? No, they'll be poking around all the time, their fleets will make rounds and check border systems, their scouts and cargo ships will be going through our systems all the time


Time isn't on our side. Every day there's another chance for the Loroi to stumble on our magically hidden shipbuilding facilities, another day where our economies become more interdependent, another day where we have people growing more comfortable with the status quo and less interested in changing it, another day for a new generation to grow up who don't see a problem with being part of the Loroi Union another day for our politicians to get an offer they can't refuse from the Loroi. Or worse, another day where we're holding back and the Loroi are losing (unless you think the Umiak are a better choice). Time is NOT on our side.


They aren't going to meddle (much) in our culture, obviously their presence will have an effect, and I highly doubt that our controllers (as in the people behind our OWN cultural development) won't make a few Loroi celebrities in human society and those will of course be used by the Loroi as well. But they aren't going to be telling us much in the way of how we have to live our lives. They WILL be watching, constantly. Earth will probably end up with a concentration of Mizol higher than any other planet except Perrein, most of them likely disguised as civilian contractors of their own. We will probably have more freedom than their other client races, but the cost of that will be that we will be analyzed more than their other client races.



It's not as simple as that. Do you think Robert Hanssen didn't know he was dealing with Russians? The Loroi will have a more difficult time sneaking in, sure, but the most damaging breaches have usually been when someone who was already in switched sides. Additionally unless you're going the Trantor route and claiming we'll get the Historians to give us tech the Loroi don't NEED to sneak in, they'll already be a major part of our STEM fields for some time. We could, of course, kick them out the second we reach parity, that won't be suspicious at all.



ALL they would have to do is find a Loroi and say "we're building a fleet". You can't prevent them from doing that without either cloistering them for the entire time the project takes or never letting a Loroi speak with a human. Good luck finding hundreds of thousands of people willing to agree to spend the next 10 years of their lives working in a complete blackout. The procedures you're talking about might prevent them from knowing how many, might prevent them from knowing exactly where, but the Loroi don't need that information, all they need is the knowledge that it's happening, they can make the rest come to light.


Simple, all they have to do is find someone who thinks that what YOU are proposing jeopardizes their nations future, their career and the their families safety. It won't be hard since what you're proposing DOES. You can argue that it's the better choice of course, but not everyone will see it that way.

As for what they are offering, you've got all the same things that people turn for now, money, love (or sex) and power.


First: I'll concede to your overall point about building reserve fleets in secret, not the wisest idea.

Second: I'll argue against your point about the next generation growing up to accept the aliens. They may very well grow up to detest them and wish their precense removed as soon as possible. It really depends on how harschly the effects of the war will tear on us.

Third: I'll concede to you're point about traitors. I forgot that it doesn't even have to be bribes involved, could be pure cowardice, opportunism (just examples not a generalisation).

Fourth: However we have a large population. And finding personell with the resolve and skill sign up on this idea doesn't really seem like a hard task
(fanaticism has convinced people of crazier ideas).

Now lets get back to blue vaginas.

Political marriages: Is it a crazy idea or a possibility?

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Thu Dec 27, 2012 6:47 pm
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Post Re: Loroi sexuality
Jericho wrote:
Second: I'll argue against your point about the next generation growing up to accept the aliens. They may very well grow up to detest them and wish their precense removed as soon as possible. It really depends on how harschly the effects of the war will tear on us.


Certainly possible. But I don't think the Loroi will treat us in a manner that would cause that.

Quote:
Fourth: However we have a large population. And finding personell with the resolve and skill sign up on this idea doesn't really seem like a hard task
(fanaticism has convinced people of crazier ideas).


When you look at the roll of famous traitors you see a lot of them that had a lot of trust. Time can change the most ardent supporter into a secret detractor.

Quote:
Political marriages: Is it a crazy idea or a possibility?


Near certainty. The Loroi and our own handlers would be stupid to not create Loroi celebrities in our culture and the value of a "marriage" in that field would be immense. It won't happen right away obviously, but that Loroi action star marrying the studly pop singer? Oh yes, it's going to happen sooner or later.


Thu Dec 27, 2012 6:53 pm
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Post Re: Loroi sexuality
fredgiblet wrote:
Near certainty. The Loroi and our own handlers would be stupid to not create Loroi celebrities in our culture and the value of a "marriage" in that field would be immense. It won't happen right away obviously, but that Loroi action star marrying the studly pop singer? Oh yes, it's going to happen sooner or later.


You keep talking about loroi celebrities. But who would volunteer for the job? And why exactly would it be an action star? A political figurehead seems more plauseable to me.

fredgiblet wrote:
Certainly possible. But I don't think the Loroi will treat us in a manner that would cause that.


They don't have to. Humans will find a scapegoat for when things are rough. I'm afraid these celebrities of yours would be held up as examples of how our goverment has betrayed us.

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Thu Dec 27, 2012 7:02 pm
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Post Re: Loroi sexuality
Jericho wrote:
Political marriages: Is it a crazy idea or a possibility?


Coming soon to a theater near you (for Human consumption only):

"I Married a Mizol!"
Alex (Human Actor) and Tempo (Loroi Actress) are young diplomats who's superiors decide they should get married in order to improve Loroi-Human relations. With much trepidation and low expectations, they go through with it. After many humorous incidents find that they've actually fallen in love.


Thu Dec 27, 2012 7:14 pm
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Post Re: Loroi sexuality
fredgiblet wrote:
Trantor wrote:
The out-tech part comes from the Historians.

Ah, so the Historians are going to hand us tech and the Loroi won't know or care about it

What can they do? After the war, when they´re worn out?
I´m not talking about a short time span of a few months.


fredgiblet wrote:
gotcha.

No need to get bitchy.


fredgiblet wrote:
If we're valuable they won't kill us, even if they don't really like us.

How can you know?


fredgiblet wrote:
We plan for the war by making ourselves indispensable so there won't be one.

By living on our knees? You can´t be serious.

And either way, it is not our choice what happens in the future. No one is interested in a Loroi-hegemony, especially not the Historians.


fredgiblet wrote:
Eventually they'll get over themselves and your fear of them killing us because we show they aren't as special as they wanted to be goes away.

You base the future of mankind on wishful thinking?? C´mon.


fredgiblet wrote:
Quote:
In a battle it´s all about firepower. If you outgun your opponent, you win.

Winter War.

Last time i checked, the Sowjets got what they wanted. Plus, everyone was undervaluing the red army thereafter, which in the end led to the total destruction of Nazi Germany.


fredgiblet wrote:
Also you're looking at the same issue Jericho is, building a fleet in secret is going to be extremely tough

Who says "secret"?


fredgiblet wrote:
We'll still take years to get a grasp on it and be decades behind on production. Additionally we have the disadvantage of not having a totalitarian government that can kick everyone in the balls and say "you're in the navy now!" and make it stick.

Ha. In the long run, that´s an advantage.

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Thu Dec 27, 2012 7:27 pm
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Post Re: Loroi sexuality
Jericho wrote:
fredgiblet wrote:
Near certainty. The Loroi and our own handlers would be stupid to not create Loroi celebrities in our culture and the value of a "marriage" in that field would be immense. It won't happen right away obviously, but that Loroi action star marrying the studly pop singer? Oh yes, it's going to happen sooner or later.

You keep talking about loroi celebrities. But who would volunteer for the job? And why exactly would it be an action star? A political figurehead seems more plauseable to me.
Volunteer?
They will be ordered to do it.

During the negotiations they will visit the worlds of humanity to confirm what we claim about ourselves.
They are going to see are civilian society, what a big influence the media and celebrities are (when they get asked to take part in photo opportunities [the importance of which would no doubt be explained if queried]) and when during the negotiations some one inevitably mentions "selling it to the public".
(Listels remember everything and they will be along even if it is only the Mizol doing the talking.
[I am imagining them seeing "Humanity needs you" retro posters or even the 2160's equivalent of the Marvel Captain America film where they had Captain America selling war bonds and doing moral & propaganda pieces.])

Jericho wrote:
fredgiblet wrote:
Certainly possible. But I don't think the Loroi will treat us in a manner that would cause that.

They don't have to. Humans will find a scapegoat for when things are rough. I'm afraid these celebrities of yours would be held up as examples of how our goverment has betrayed us.
By some yes.
But that is balanced by those won over the celebrities if marketed correctly.
It is a numbers game.

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Thu Dec 27, 2012 8:59 pm
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Post Re: Loroi sexuality
Trantor wrote:
fredgiblet wrote:
Trantor wrote:
The out-tech part comes from the Historians.

Ah, so the Historians are going to hand us tech and the Loroi won't know or care about it

What can they do? After the war, when they´re worn out?
I´m not talking about a short time span of a few months.
That the Historians will approach us at doesn't seem all that likely.

Based on the comic, insider and Arioch's past posts; the Historians don't seem to get much involved with other races until they attacked whereby they then supply the attacker's enemies/competition with technology and an alliance.

Do you see the Loroi attacking the Historians any time soon after the war is over?
When they are still worn out from the current one?

I don't and I bet the Historians would come to the same conclusion.

So,
Short term: Current war, baring massive plot changing devices/events another 20 - 50 years seems plausible.

Medium term: Up to 50 years after the war, Loroi are recovering from the war, Humans achieve tech parity with the Loroi without Historian assistance (current forum estimates are 80 years and Arioch didn't shoot it down)

Long term: 50+ years after the war, Humans push for more independence/less Loroi influence (depending on what kind of treaty is negotiated), potential Loroi-Human conflict, (Humans have slightly better tech, Loroi have vastly larger population, territory and military), probably solved diplomatically.

Very long term: 150+ years after the war, Loroi-Human conflict more probable, probably solved militarily. Historians sit smugly on the side lines having not gotten involved.

Trantor wrote:
fredgiblet wrote:
gotcha.

No need to get bitchy.
Pot meet Kettle. :D

Trantor wrote:
fredgiblet wrote:
If we're valuable they won't kill us, even if they don't really like us.

How can you know?
If you are fighting for survival you don't waste time killing an potential ally because they have an annoying laugh and poor hygiene. :)

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Thu Dec 27, 2012 9:36 pm
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Post Re: Loroi sexuality
I had something I wanted to mention, even though the conversation has since moved on considering the compatibility of Human and Loroi. I must preface this by saying that I will knowingly and willingly concede that everyone here is more familiar with the subject matter than myself and this is my own interpretation and understanding.

As has previously been stated, Loroi females are introduced to sexual activity early in their lives for the purposes of procreation but have limited access afterward. They do experience pleasure from sex and no doubt enjoy the activity. Arioch has also stated that there are individuals (read: sexual deviants in their society) who would be attracted to Humans and even consider pursuing sexual activity and perhaps even (unconventional/unusual) relationships. He has also stated that access to males is strictly controlled and homosexual relations between Loroi females are also unusual and taboo (but also probably still happen).

With this in mind we can assume that Loroi males are very experienced (skilled) sexually. Females on the other hand are likely a bit awkward during their first encounters and afterward have to make due with other sources of stimulation. This formula to me puts Loroi females in a position of sexual frustration; they have experienced it, they like it, their first experiences were good ones. Society tells them sex is only for procreation, and they have limited opportunity to experience it or even find partners for it.

Human men and women on the other hand have more opportunities than Loroi (females) and are blessed with multiple sexual partners throughout their lives along with numerous encounters with those partners. Ignoring the likelihood of encounters between them, Loroi males would find their Human partners far more experienced (skilled) than they are used to. Loroi females would find their male partners experienced (though less so than male Loroi), willing, available, and without the risk of pregnancy there is no danger to one's duties military or otherwise to carry on.

I imagine it would start off as only a curious thought to one of a single 'deviant' Loroi, one day an encounter, and then the knowledge of this compatibility would spread like wildfire. Loroi women have a need and Human men are plentiful (comparatively) and eager partners, despite being 'mute' and 'deaf' to telepathy. With time I could only imagine more and more Loroi would consider Humanity acceptable partners; "They are different, they are curious, they are not Loroi but...". There is no downside I can perceive other than 'it's weird right now!'. The closest comparison I can draw is that Humanity is similar the first African slaves to European (Loroi) conquerors; different languages and perceived as subhuman savages. Interracial couples today are common, and the majority of us know better than to think such things.

Intimacy by means of telepathy has been mentioned a few times here, implying that telepathy is required to form the necessary bond/closeness and comfort for the deed. I will admit that it would smooth the process for the act itself and allow one to 'hit all the right spots' to make their partners happy, but Loroi males are not expected to form relationships with their mates; their role is already determined. Loroi females are discouraged from carrying on with other females, and individuals who would pursue such a relationship are likely quite rare. A telepathic community to me offers unity, acceptance and camaraderie, but intimacy? Humans may be the only ones who can teach the Loroi the meaning of the word. Bear in mind this is only based on my understanding and in no way meant to be interpreted as 'fact'.

Anyway, despite my perhaps creepy introduction, I am happy to join a community I respect and hope that Arioch will continue his excellent work.


Thu Dec 27, 2012 9:45 pm
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Post Re: Loroi sexuality
Jericho wrote:
fredgiblet wrote:
Near certainty. The Loroi and our own handlers would be stupid to not create Loroi celebrities in our culture and the value of a "marriage" in that field would be immense. It won't happen right away obviously, but that Loroi action star marrying the studly pop singer? Oh yes, it's going to happen sooner or later.


You keep talking about loroi celebrities. But who would volunteer for the job? And why exactly would it be an action star? A political figurehead seems more plauseable to me.
Major political figures are usually already married, and unlikely to switch at the drop of a hat (among other things, if they just suddenly went with one of these "young" spry Loroi, they'd get accused of hunting trophy wives, which would damage their career).

On the other hand, celebrities offer all of the visibility of a politician (even more, in fact), and unless things have changed by the time of Outsider, divorces between them won't be rare, which the Loroi will find reassuring because it will offer an "escape hatch" if the situation in some way goes south (example: the Mizol in question accidentally married the equivalent of Tom Cruise).

Mayhem wrote:
Trantor wrote:
fredgiblet wrote:
Ah, so the Historians are going to hand us tech and the Loroi won't know or care about it

What can they do? After the war, when they´re worn out?
I´m not talking about a short time span of a few months.
That the Historians will approach us at doesn't seem all that likely.

Based on the comic, insider and Arioch's past posts; the Historians don't seem to get much involved with other races until they attacked whereby they then supply the attacker's enemies/competition with technology and an alliance.

Do you see the Loroi attacking the Historians any time soon after the war is over?
When they are still worn out from the current one?

I don't and I bet the Historians would come to the same conclusion.
A few flaws in your analysis:
1) I recall Arioch mentioning at some point that the Historians are, among other things, technology merchants. As I best recall, one or another of the more common weapons used by even non-allies of the Historians is a low-tech (presumably antiquated by Historian standards) Historian weapon.
2) The Historians are apparently slightly paranoid about Loroi telepathy. It's one of (though not the only) reason why they use AIs for most (or all?) of their diplomatic and trade missions. If Humans and Loroi start dealing with each other commonly, then at some point the Historians will catch on that the Loroi have trouble reading us, and some time after that they'll figure out that the Loroi effectively can't "see" us at all.

Either of those is enough for us to get an initial boost from the Historians, but both in combination will work wonders for Historian-Human relations.

And the Loroi won't try to do too much to stop it, because my that time they'll have figured out that they can manipulate us in approximately the same way as each other (the similarity alone will be reassuring), and more importantly, they'll have figured out that while latching onto the research of a rival (or even allied) sub-group of Loroi requires actually moving people around (one of the major functions of the Listel is carrying information between geographically separated scientific enclaves), all that they require to tap into Human research is access to the relevant computers. The Mizol will be simultaneously depressed and enthused at this, but the result will be certain regardless: the Loroi will turn us into another science-specialized affiliate, because it'll be so much easier than doing it to themselves.

Edited in: To add something Trantor would find relevant:
The Historians play us against the Loroi,
The Loroi play us against the Historians (they live for centuries, they can afford to be patient),
We play the Historians and Loroi against each other.
Everyone gets their feathers ruffled, noone gets wiped out, because the three groups mesh too well for anything else.


Thu Dec 27, 2012 11:22 pm
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Post Re: Loroi sexuality
Jericho wrote:
You keep talking about loroi celebrities. But who would volunteer for the job? And why exactly would it be an action star? A political figurehead seems more plauseable to me.


Who said anything about volunteering? The statement I have in my head for the fanfic about this that I'm probably not going to write is "you give me 25 Loroi, I'll give you 25 billion humans. I think that's a fair trade". The Loroi leadership will give us a couple dozen Loroi who have sufficient talent to do the job, with orders to do what the strange man in the ill-fitting suit says, whatever it is for the greater good. They don't have to like it, they just have to follow orders.

Political figureheads are a terrible idea, you talked about scapegoats and there's few things more divisive than politics, having a political figurehead is a straight-shot to a headache. Actors don't typically draw a significant negative reaction unless they are either massive douchebags or put too much emphasis on non-acting things (Tom Cruise and Scientology), so you can gain some ground without much risk. Action star isn't necessarily the only option, but it seems like the easiest for a Loroi to fall into, think Act of Valor, great movie even if the acting was poor. Get a Loroi Marine, her job in the movie is to shoot stuff and look pretty, two things she's probably already good at, the only thing she needs to learn is how to toss out one-liners. There's other options (and obviously we wouldn't want to have all of them doing the same thing) but that seems the easiest.


Fri Dec 28, 2012 12:04 am
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Post Re: Loroi sexuality
@Trantor

The central issue seems to be that our desires for the endgame and our thoughts on how things will progress are incompatible. I'm not going to convince you, you aren't going to convince me. Let's both agree that we're glad the other isn't going to be in charge when things go down.

Mayhem wrote:
Pot meet Kettle. :D


I'm always amused by how quick he is to call out others on tone, hypocrisy and nationalism

VonWolffe wrote:
*snip*


Pretty much spot on with my thoughts on the subject. I expect there won't ever be a majority of Loroi females looking for love, but I think that a fair number of them will end up being with humans at one point or another just because of availability.

Of course there are important considerations like how the Loroi government feels about it, but as I've had to repeat many times, I don't think they're stupid so I don't think they'll do much more than say "keep it indoors". They could of course go the other way and say "If you so much as SEE a human penis you'll never touch a Loroi male again!" but I think that would be wasteful and counter-productive (look at how well telling kids to not have sex has worked for US!), so my bet is there reaction will be more like "...god damnit...fine, whatever, just...just try not to be stupid about it, OK?"


Fri Dec 28, 2012 12:37 am
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Post Re: Loroi sexuality
Mayhem wrote:
I am suggesting that our constant, impenetrable Lotai might subconsciously register as a "lack of 'soul'".


It might, which is why I think it is an interesting subversion of the "aliens look like us, they must be like us" trope :)

Victor_D wrote:
I was talking about the typical Loroi female who would exhibit xenophobia and species chauvinism.


Do we know what a "typical Loroi" (whatever that means in their culture) is like? They may be brought up that way, especially since so many of them are essentially soldiers, but there usually is a difference between acquired, culture-specific knowledge and personal instincts. No doubt many of the white soldiers in the early days of colonization were led to believe that the natives were only marginally better than animals (no proper religion, no 'advanced' technology, 'primitive' customs, etc.), but many of them ended up infatuated/falling in love with local women, who were often radically different in appearance and behaviour from European women.

I am thinking that given sufficient opportunity, the Loroi would behave the same. Obviously they're not going to behave like that under the watchful eye/mind of their superior officers, which explains most of the reactions to Alex we've seen so far.

Quote:
Beryl doesn't count as she is described as a xenophile and is therefore atypical and a potential "sexual outlier".


Or she is more intellectual than the 'typical Loroi' and therefore better able to sift through the chronic xenophobic indoctrination, which makes her less ashamed for being naturally curious about things and people that are different.

Quote:
Reviewing pages 19 - 101 Beryl is the only Loroi so far that is clearly (& honestly) friendly to Alex.
Tempo is a spy and a diplomat so we can't determine anything about her real attitude to Alex from her behaviour.
Fireblade and Stillstorm are clearly hostile to and distrustful of Alex.
(Fireblade does have moments of sad reflection/pity it seems but how this pertains to Alex is yet to be seen.)
The rest seem to be divided between hostility and neutrality with a scattering of cautious curiosity.

So it seems reasonable that the typical Loroi female would be unlikely to be interested in becoming intimate with a human male.


Many of the reactions are no doubt a result of their suspicion that Alex is some kind of an Umiak ruse. They may also be a bit freaked out by his 'Lotai' ability - I'd certainly be highly suspicious if in the middle of a battle with a devious enemy I found a being which from the looks of it might be an enemy genetic construct, especially if it was somehow able to resist my 'mind-meld' and I'd thus be unable to verify its story. It all seems very convenient, as Tempo hinted.

Therefore, I wouldn't assume that what we've seen so far are 'typical' reactions humans will experience when meeting Loroi for all times to come.

fredgiblet wrote:
You're relatively new on the forums so you may not have had a chance to see the character sheets, but Beryl has Xenophilia (not what you think), so she's going to be much more accepting of Alex then the other Loroi. She might not be showing that level of body language to a slug-creature, but a lot of what's going on with her and Alex is particular to her, not to the Loroi as a whole.


As I said above, I believe this is a result of her being more intellectually developed than the average Loroi 'grunt'; thus she is more open to things that are new and interesting (and I mean it in perfectly non-sexual way now). The other Loroi might be suspicious at first, but I doubt they'd remain so after a prolonged contact with humans.

(Many foreigners claim that Czechs display exactly this attitude: when you first come here, they all seem cold and suspicious and it is hard to make them open up to you. But once it happens, they are suddenly very friendly, welcoming, and curious about you.)

In short, my argument is that the perceived hostility we've seen is a result of the abnormal (*umiak kktkthttkk sounds in the background*) circumstances of the first contact and the cultural barriers between the Loroi and Terrans. I think this will get better in time.

Quote:
More than just ethical. We probably represent a major part of their history, it may be a part they don't want to be brought up (since they'd rather be created from whole cloth to be more special) but the value of picking us apart genetically and examining our history is too high for them to give up.


Definitely. The question is whether the powers-that-be want to find out. I am sure humans would be curious, but the Loroi who've constructed their 'national myth' on the basis of their perceived true Soia heritage will be apprehensive of what they might uncover.

After all, how would humans like to find out we were in reality constructed for fun, because some alien man-child was bored and decided to play with little apes he'd randomly discovered? Wait, no need for such an analogy - just look at how certain religious people react to the scientific explanation of where Homo sapiens came from. No higher purpose, no "made in God's image", it's hard to stomach for many.


Fri Dec 28, 2012 2:24 am
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Post Re: Loroi sexuality
Victor_D wrote:
Definitely. The question is whether the powers-that-be want to find out. I am sure humans would be curious, but the Loroi who've constructed their 'national myth' on the basis of their perceived true Soia heritage will be apprehensive of what they might uncover.


But here's the thing, if they ignore it then they lose their mystique, they aren't as special anymore. If they investigate they may find something that can give them that back.


Fri Dec 28, 2012 2:40 am
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Post Re: Loroi sexuality
fredgiblet wrote:
Victor_D wrote:
Definitely. The question is whether the powers-that-be want to find out. I am sure humans would be curious, but the Loroi who've constructed their 'national myth' on the basis of their perceived true Soia heritage will be apprehensive of what they might uncover.


But here's the thing, if they ignore it then they lose their mystique, they aren't as special anymore. If they investigate they may find something that can give them that back.


Or they'll find out that they were truly meant to be just exotic food for the Soia, who couldn't eat humans because of their different biochemistry ;) (It would explain why they're mostly female, you see, that's how you raise cattle. Also, female flesh will probably be more tender... :twisted: )


Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:57 am
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Post Re: Loroi sexuality
Victor_D wrote:
fredgiblet wrote:
Victor_D wrote:
Definitely. The question is whether the powers-that-be want to find out. I am sure humans would be curious, but the Loroi who've constructed their 'national myth' on the basis of their perceived true Soia heritage will be apprehensive of what they might uncover.


But here's the thing, if they ignore it then they lose their mystique, they aren't as special anymore. If they investigate they may find something that can give them that back.


Or they'll find out that they were truly meant to be just exotic food for the Soia, who couldn't eat humans because of their different biochemistry ;) (It would explain why they're mostly female, you see, that's how you raise cattle. Also, female flesh will probably be more tender... :twisted: )



Bordered in Blue?


Fri Dec 28, 2012 4:46 am
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Post Re: Loroi sexuality
fredgiblet wrote:
But here's the thing, if they ignore it then they lose their mystique, they aren't as special anymore. If they investigate they may find something that can give them that back.


Cough Cough "Telepathy" Cough.

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Fri Dec 28, 2012 4:59 am
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Post Re: Loroi sexuality
Mali wrote:
bunnyboy wrote:
Just admit that you want to see hot loroi girl on girl action.

He cracked my evil plan. Need to dispose him immediately.

What! Have a distraction instead.

Image

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Fri Dec 28, 2012 5:31 am
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Post Re: Loroi sexuality
Jericho wrote:
fredgiblet wrote:
But here's the thing, if they ignore it then they lose their mystique, they aren't as special anymore. If they investigate they may find something that can give them that back.


Cough Cough "Telepathy" Cough.


Almost completely off-topic: has somebody mentioned Call to Arms by Alan D. Foster on this forum?

Specifically, I mean the ability of humans to shield from telepathy. The "evil" race in CtA, the Ampliturs, use telepathic suggestion to control the subjugated races of their empire and bend them to their will. However, this requires telepathic contact with the mind to which they are "suggesting". In a plot twist by the end of the 1st book, the Ampliturs find out that the human mind is so disorderly, chaotic, and violent that even a casual contact with it sends the Amplitur attempting it into a convulsive shock :)

So, the Loroi should really feel lucky that they just can't penetrate the human mental barrier.


Fri Dec 28, 2012 5:39 am
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Post Re: Loroi sexuality
fredgiblet wrote:
Let's both agree that we're glad the other isn't going to be in charge when things go down.

Well, ok.
But do you really have no problem living on your knees?


fredgiblet wrote:
Mayhem wrote:
Pot meet Kettle. :D

I'm always amused by how quick he is to call out others on tone, hypocrisy and nationalism

See? that´s the most important point since it all serves for the entertainment. ;)




Mayhem wrote:
Trantor wrote:
What can they do? After the war, when they´re worn out?
I´m not talking about a short time span of a few months.

That the Historians will approach us at doesn't seem all that likely.
...

Do you see the Loroi attacking the Historians any time soon after the war is over?

No. But i see Historians who have read their version of Macchiavelli very carefully.
They´re not keen on Loroi hegemony.


Mayhem wrote:
Short term: Current war, baring massive plot changing devices/events another 20 - 50 years seems plausible.

Medium term: Up to 50 years after the war, Loroi are recovering from the war, Humans achieve tech parity with the Loroi without Historian assistance (current forum estimates are 80 years and Arioch didn't shoot it down)

Long term: 50+ years after the war, Humans push for more independence/less Loroi influence (depending on what kind of treaty is negotiated), potential Loroi-Human conflict, (Humans have slightly better tech, Loroi have vastly larger population, territory and military), probably solved diplomatically.

Very long term: 150+ years after the war, Loroi-Human conflict more probable, probably solved militarily. Historians sit smugly on the side lines having not gotten involved.

Ah, finally someone who has a grasp about time-spans!

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Fri Dec 28, 2012 5:47 am
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Post Re: Loroi sexuality
bunnyboy wrote:
What! Have a distraction instead.

Image


ENCORE!!

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Fri Dec 28, 2012 5:50 am
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Post Re: Loroi sexuality
JQBogus wrote:
Coming soon to a theater near you (for Human consumption only):

"I Married a Mizol!"
Alex (Human Actor) and Tempo (Loroi Actress) are young diplomats who's superiors decide they should get married in order to improve Loroi-Human relations. With much trepidation and low expectations, they go through with it. After many humorous incidents find that they've actually fallen in love.


I think we should all see this movie. I hear the love scene's are amazing.


Quote:
Almost completely off-topic: has somebody mentioned Call to Arms by Alan D. Foster on this forum?

Specifically, I mean the ability of humans to shield from telepathy. The "evil" race in CtA, the Ampliturs, use telepathic suggestion to control the subjugated races of their empire and bend them to their will. However, this requires telepathic contact with the mind to which they are "suggesting". In a plot twist by the end of the 1st book, the Ampliturs find out that the human mind is so disorderly, chaotic, and violent that even a casual contact with it sends the Amplitur attempting it into a convulsive shock :)

So, the Loroi should really feel lucky that they just can't penetrate the human mental barrier.


Never heard of it (google time).


But i seriously doubt a loroi would really go in to shock but i do think they might be shocked at what goes on inside our heads. More like a "The Fck is this" kind of reaction. If they ever gets inside.

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Fri Dec 28, 2012 6:34 am
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