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Loroi sexuality 
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Post Re: Loroi sexuality
The next post that contains an insult will result in the closing of this thread. If you can't make your point in a civil manner, don't post.

There is no excuse for insults and personal attacks, no matter what "the other guy" said first.

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Mon Dec 31, 2012 3:40 pm
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Post Re: Loroi sexuality
Arioch wrote:
The next post that contains an insult will result in the closing of this thread. If you can't make your point in a civil manner, don't post

Where did i insult fredgiblet?

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Mon Dec 31, 2012 3:46 pm
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Post Re: Loroi sexuality
Arioch wrote:
The next post that contains an insult will result in the closing of this thread. If you can't make your point in a civil manner, don't post.

There is no excuse for insults and personal attacks, no matter what "the other guy" said first.


I'm sorry i'll edit my post. I let my temper get the best of me and i didn't think of what i was typing.

Trantor wrote:
Where did i insult fredgiblet?


I think he meant me.

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Mon Dec 31, 2012 3:47 pm
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Post Re: Loroi sexuality
What was this thread about?

With the mention of USSRLoroi, and capitulation towards a imperialistic power, it's like we got a rendezvous with destiny.


Mon Dec 31, 2012 4:47 pm
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Post Re: Loroi sexuality
Guys, just calm down a bit.
A happy new year from germany, btw... ;)

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Mon Dec 31, 2012 4:48 pm
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Post Re: Loroi sexuality
Jericho wrote:
Pig-headed? You ignorant, arrogant (Censur). Were the norweigans who resisted nazi occupation pigheaded? Tell that story to the finnish soldiers in the winter war who were to pig headed to accept soviet rule.


You'll note that they were invaded. Texas was a free country that voluntarily joined the United States, much more similar situation.

Quote:
Every nation in the free world ows it existens to people who were to pig-headed to accept the status quo. Luckily for humanity history has been written by brave men and women who were willing to fight for what they believed in not by sniveling cowards like yourself.


As an American I'm fully aware of the importance of freedom fighters, however I don't see freedom fighters being relevant here. See below. Also I resent the idea that I'm a sniveling coward, I'm a yellow-bellied, lilly-livered, no-good coward. Get it right. :evil:

Quote:
Who is the most pig-headed here? the humans for wanting something that is culturally integral to them or the loroi who feels their status as devine rulers being threatened by an upstart race with no previous interaction or knowledge of them.


You seem to be assuming a great deal. You and others like you seem to be assuming that the Loroi are going to be omnipresent dictators demanding to control our every move. I think the most important disconnect in these discussions is that I see no such thing. I've stated many times that it would be stupid of the Loroi to be overbearing and I don't think the Loroi are stupid. Can you explain why you think that the Loroi will make significant changes to our culture? Beyond the obvious fact that we've met a powerful alien species, that will cause changes regardless of whether or not we join them. Why do you think it's in their best interests to cripple the very thing that makes us valuable?

Quote:
Top dog? Again who said we need to be top dog? Self determination does not render you top dog nor a threat. It is "your" loroi who feels the need to bark down the throat of everyone else (yes i write your loroi because your intrepitation of them is so far out of touch with the story so far that they appear to be senseless murderers without motives or personality).


I don't think the Loroi will want to wipe us out or even fight with us. But I also don't think they will hesitate to if we make them. At present the only chance of them wiping us out is if they feel we might end up under the sway of the Umiak, the danger of the Umiak discovering the lotai and using it against the Loroi is simply too great, with that in hand the tide of war would immediately and irrevocably shift in favor of the Umiak. Other than that I see no reason for them to be hostile for some time.

On the other hand we have the potential to out-pace them by a great deal, in the next couple centuries if we're left alone we will rival or exceed them in power, they are quite comfortable on top and I don't see them taking too well to that. Don't forget that they see themselves as the heirs to the Soia and the rightful rulers of the galaxy, the idea of us over-powering them won't sit well. In the long-term an independent humanity is not only a military threat, but a threat to myth the Loroi have built around themselves, on the other hand if we're part of the Union and nominally under their control then they are still "in charge" while we're free to get as big as we want. The best part is that they'll probably happily do the fighting in any wars, we don't even need to have our own people going out and dying when they're insisting on the right to do it for us.

Quote:
What i'm proposing is simple independence and good relations with our neighbours. We can do that without this overbearing superstate. And i don't think the loroi are going to commit genocide on one of their allies for simply building warships in their own territories. And if we get to the point that we are a genuine threat to them i doubt the loroi are going to be willing to launch an attack on an independent party who have showed no signs of aggression towards them.


Considering that the members of the Union are prohibited from having militaries I think think that while genocide would be too far they certainly would have some very vigorous objections to us making warships. Whether or not the Loroi would eventually come into conflict with us if we remained independent is an interestign question, though largely an academic one since we won't BE independent for much longer. I expect that it would largely depend on whether or not they could come to accept that we were likely to out-pace and eventually replace them as the main power in the area. I expect that would be a very difficult pill for them to swallow, but I'm not certain that conflict would be inevitable.

Trantor wrote:
fredgiblet wrote:
Trantor has been openly insisting on war

On the PREPARATION for war, please.
Don´t you read my posts, or don´t you understand/WANT to understand them?


Trantor wrote:
fredgiblet wrote:
with the Historians to betray the Loroi at the opportune moment which will require genocide

In the very end, certainly. Read your Sun Tzu.


You advocated joining with the Historians to backstab the Loroi even when I pointed out that the current war shows us that defeating the Loroi would require genocide. I'm not certain what else you meant. More German humor?

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...and your methods are plain WRONG.


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Mon Dec 31, 2012 6:29 pm
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Post Re: Loroi sexuality
I don't think the Loroi are currently in a position to refuse any allies, even if those allies may be a threat in the future. Let the future deal with that.

If human ships are not militarily useful, don't have the humans build military ships. Transfer merchant ship production to Human yards, in order to free up Loroi yards to build more warships.

OR

Transfer a complement of technicians to help Earth to get them up and building militarily useful ships. For the Loroi Union Fleet, to be manned predominantly by experienced Loroi Union Fleet personnel. Humans serve, but not initially in command or highly technical positions. They just don't have the familiarity with the new (to them) technology and systems, or the combat experience. And, of course, since Loroi live so much longer, Humans won't likely ever catch up...


Once humans get the experience, and start clamoring for independent commands, or ships where they are the majority...well, again, that's a probelm for the future... there's a total war to win right now.


Mon Dec 31, 2012 8:42 pm
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Post Re: Loroi sexuality
Our merchant ships won't be much more useful than our warships. They are probably smaller and almost certainly much slower than the Loroi ships.

From what Arioch has said humans in Outsider might be longer lived than Loroi.


Mon Dec 31, 2012 8:51 pm
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Post Re: Loroi sexuality
With regard to the negotiation of an alliance (or Union membership) I thought it might help If I pulled some of the "facts" together in one place (from insider, past forum discussions and my perhaps unreliable memory [so please jump in if you spot an error]).

Total Population:
Terrans: 25 billion (~200 million off Earth)
Loroi: "50 to 100 billion" (not sure if this is just Loroi or if it includes other union races)

Territory:
Terrans: 6 worlds, 40 light-years across (can't source this figure but I'm fairly sure it is correct)
Loroi: "the Loroi Empire spans several hundred inhabited star systems", "Loroi territory is perhaps ten times as large"

(Space) Military experience and Tech level:
Terran: 50 years, 0 conflicts, equivalent to Loroi circa 1400 CE (760 years ago [Word of Arioch IIRC])
Loroi: 1300 years, 7 previous conflicts + 25 years of this 1, equivalent to Estimated Terran of 2240 CE (80 years from now [forum speculation])

(Combat) Fleet Sizes (currently available):
Loroi: 6 Sector fleets + large mobile reserve (Strike Group 51 itself had 28 ships when Alex watched them fight [page74])
Terran: 24 ships (+ the 3 remaining scouts if they manage to return)

Time to the conflict reaching Terran space through natural expansion: ~ 2 years.

---

Once the Loroi get past the suspicion that Alex is an Umiak plot, and the culture shock of a pink Loroi-oid "warrior" male they will no doubt send a investigation/negotiation fleet to Earth.

Once they start investigating I suspect they will rapidly draw the following conclusions (based on their own prejudices):
  1. Multiple Civilian Governments => Not innate warriors psychologically
  2. 1-to-1 male-female ratio, slow development to adulthood => Not innate warriors biologically
  3. Tiny, inexperienced military with out-dated weaponry => Not a threat in and of ourselves

Until they twig that our technological growth rate is 10 times theirs; their only concern will be preventing us falling into Umiak hands.

The simple solution would be to garrison a few strike groups (normally 35 ships each I believe) in Terran space.
Maybe like America military bases in Asia + some scientists to teach us how to produce their food and fuel.

The question is what sort of deal would they want to offer us?

Because despite Trantor's "top diplomats" ;) the Loroi hold all the cards (at this point in time).
Much like America and those small Asia countries they occupy garrison their troops in. :)

Based on Insider the options are seem to be:
  1. Independent Ally: Nissek, Historians (& therefore Pol)
  2. (Junior) Union member: Neridi, Barsam, Pipolsid & Golim
  3. Partially-occupied Independent: Arekka
  4. Subjugated Population: Delrias, Mannadi
1 would be best, but I imagine we would accept 2 (for the short term at least) in order to avoid 3 & 4.

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Tue Jan 01, 2013 12:57 am
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Post Re: Loroi sexuality
Voitan wrote:
Mali wrote:
You still think that Loroi and humans could get together? Let's think. A warrior-amazon race. They would look like Red Sonia or culturists or even worse - NRD swiming team. In comic they look great but in real life they are muscles not supermodels (one of internet rules states that irl everything is worse). Then second issue. As every species they are biologiclly atracted to THEIR males, who happen to be delicate or fragile. Only skinny, small nerds could get some... wait... nevermind...


I can tell you right now, IRL, human ideas of what counts as sexy can be anything.

ANYTHING.

So not really a problem on the human side.
In fact, would the Bible actually forbid bestiality if it wasn't a known thing? Loroi are a lot more similar than a donkey.

fredgiblet wrote:
and there will be positions of value that only Loroi can fill effectively for some time (how much would a Hollywood studio pay for a Loroi actress?).
Enough for some ear prostheses and face paint. Loroi are easy. Barsam, Historians, etc. are where the real Hollywood money would be. Of course, once one came over, they would find plenty of jobs in all sorts of pay ranges, but Hollywood wouldn't be likely to pay a lot to get that initial travel to happen.

Victor_D wrote:
Again, they're not a democratic government, they're a Soviet Union on steroids. OK, maybe not as totalitarian since the population generally accepts this way of organizing the government. So, China on steroids.
Sparta on steroids estrogen.

Victor_D wrote:
fredgiblet wrote:
The Loroi aren't going to give us stuff and leave us alone, we pose too much of a long-term threat for them to let us be independent.


What threat? They don't even know us yet. The only thing they know for sure is that Humans look very much like them physically and are able to evade their telepathy.
That threat. Their telepathy is a pretty important part of how they police their borders, so they won't be amused by our lotai.

fredgiblet wrote:
"Ally" is a pretty loose term for the Union, the people that are separate are usually so because the Loroi couldn't effectively roll over them like they can easily roll over us.

Our short-term value is a secure flank, but that flank isn't secure unless the Loroi have a decent presence, WE certainly can't defend it, if we could we wouldn't be offering ourselves to the Loroi.
And therein lies an actual route to negotiated independence: Humanity will initially look a thousand or more years behind the Loroi, so if a treaty can be finalized in a short period after their diplomats come to Human space then they'll be negotiating terms with a race that's more formidable over the long-term than they'll actually realize at the time. They'll demand the right to garrison ships and some ground forces at some of our ports, but Humanity would likely be demanding that anyways. Further, the Tithric demonstrate that the Loroi aren't quite inclined to take direct control anyways, so as long as they can keep a close eye on us, they won't necessarily be inclined to interfere too much. Add a few of the conventional TCA admirals, eager to show off their arsenal to the Loroi, thinking it'll earn us a prized spot in the Union, and you have a perfect storm for Humanity's diplomats.

That having been said, it does seem somewhat unlikely.

fredgiblet wrote:
Our merchant ships won't be much more useful than our warships. They are probably smaller and almost certainly much slower than the Loroi ships.
Doesn't matter. As long as we can produce bulk consumables and get them to Loroi transfer points fast enough, they'll be happy to use our merchant shipping. They'd have to be idiots to use a human merchant ship to resupply front-line squadrons, but I assume that they won't consider a variety of their own ships sufficient for that task. So, any fuel that we can make for them, any of our long-lasting foodstuffs that they can eat, any long-lived pharmaceuticals that we can produce for them, and any long-lived non-secure supplies of other sorts that we can supply for them will all be sent on Human cargo ships, and a while after that they'll start transferring their own shipment of such things to human ships as well, because it will free up their own faster ships for more time-intensive supplies. If speed was everything, then all transoceanic cargo and freight would be moved via jet aircraft. Human ships may be more similar to a skiff than a supertanker, but we'll also be there, and once someone both sees the value and has the money, you'll get your 0.5 cubic kilometer sluggish Human cargo ship(s).


Tue Jan 01, 2013 3:15 am
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Post Re: Loroi sexuality
Mayhem wrote:
With regard to the negotiation of an alliance (or Union membership) I thought it might help If I pulled some of the "facts" together in one place (from insider, past forum discussions and my perhaps unreliable memory [so please jump in if you spot an error]).

Total Population:
Terrans: 25 billion (~200 million off Earth)
Loroi: "50 to 100 billion" (not sure if this is just Loroi or if it includes other union races)

Territory:
Terrans: 6 worlds, 40 light-years across (can't source this figure but I'm fairly sure it is correct)
Loroi: "the Loroi Empire spans several hundred inhabited star systems", "Loroi territory is perhaps ten times as large"

(Space) Military experience and Tech level:
Terran: 50 years, 0 conflicts, equivalent to Loroi circa 1400 CE (760 years ago [Word of Arioch IIRC])
Loroi: 1300 years, 7 previous conflicts + 25 years of this 1, equivalent to Estimated Terran of 2240 CE (80 years from now [forum speculation])

(Combat) Fleet Sizes (currently available):
Loroi: 6 Sector fleets + large mobile reserve (Strike Group 51 itself had 28 ships when Alex watched them fight [page74])
Terran: 24 ships (+ the 3 remaining scouts if they manage to return)

Time to the conflict reaching Terran space through natural expansion: ~ 2 years.


Thanks for that. I seem to remember a number of "5 years at most" that either the Loroi or Umiak would reach Terran space through expansion.
And I wouldn't call it "natural expansion", but "war-induced expansion".

But I start to wonder at the feasability of expanding for the cause of circumventing your opponent's defense perimeter. If (hypothetically) the Umiak would use Terran space to reach a Loroi sector from an unexpected angle, those would need to be underway for an extra 4 months or so form their starting base: 2 months to reach Terran space, and 2 months to get back to the Loroi border. Sounds like a logistical nightmare to me having a fleet supplied for such an endurance trip.

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Post Re: Loroi sexuality
fredgiblet wrote:
Sure they don't know us yet, but they will have a good idea in not too long. We have ridiculous population growth (more than tripled in less than 200 years), presumably an attendent increase in industrial capacity and a faster tech development speed. We are no threat today, but in 100 years (particularly if we have tech help from someone) we'll be comparable in industrial and technological ability. If they allow us to remain independent then we'll be developing military power that whole time as well.

We pose a massive long-term threat to them.


So what?

1) They don't know and probably won't believe that this trend will continue. From what I've read, tech growth has slowed down in the early interstellar age for most civilizations. Humans may be a bit more creative by necessity (no Soia-era ruins to rediscover tech from), but the notion that they will out-science everybody in just a century or two will seem ridiculous to Loroi.
2) China poses a massive long-term geopolitical threat to the US, even more so than the USSR in its age. It has posed such a threat ever since Deng Xiaoping began modernizing the country in the 1980s. If the US behaved like many on this forum expect the Loroi to behave, it would have launched a preventive nuclear attack against China in the early 1990s to return the country to the stone age. The US had the capability then to burn China to the ground with minimal losses to itself. Did it do that? No. Why not? Because the notion that a country might get relatively stronger in the future isn't a good enough reason to wipe it out.

Quote:
We can't be. In the short-term we can't build any ships worth using to fight, our ships wouldn't even be worth using as police ships. By the time our industrial and technological capacity can be used to build warships worth using the war will be won. We can't protect ourselves and won't be able to for some time.


Loroi don't have crystal balls. They don't know how long the war will last. It's a safe bet to keep the humans as a happy ally who can offer at least some sort of support (logistics mainly).

The way it looks, the space between Terran space and the war front is pretty empty. Even if Umiak expand there in an attempt to "outflank" the Loroi, they will basically have to build up the whole logistical infrastructure from scratch in pristine systems. The Loroi, on the other hand, can make use of 'humaniti' to have a ready-made resupply base on their flank, one which can be relatively easily defended (I doubt Umiak can send a big enough fleet that far without MAJOR problems with keeping it supplied), but which can pay for maintenance of the defence force.

Jericho wrote:
Every nation in the free world ows it existens to people who were to pig-headed to accept the status quo.


Except Czechoslovakia :lol:

JQBogus wrote:
I don't think the Loroi are currently in a position to refuse any allies, even if those allies may be a threat in the future. Let the future deal with that.

(...)

Once humans get the experience, and start clamoring for independent commands, or ships where they are the majority...well, again, that's a probelm for the future... there's a total war to win right now.


Exactamundo.

Mayhem wrote:
Once they start investigating I suspect they will rapidly draw the following conclusions (based on their own prejudices):
Multiple Civilian Governments => Not innate warriors psychologically
1-to-1 male-female ratio, slow development to adulthood => Not innate warriors biologically
Tiny, inexperienced military with out-dated weaponry => Not a threat in and of ourselves

Until they twig that our technological growth rate is 10 times theirs; their only concern will be preventing us falling into Umiak hands.


This. From their perspective, humans are not a threat any more than Nigeria is considered a threat (despite the UN projections that put its population at 700+ million people by the end of the century, more than the US and on par with the whole of Europe).

Absolom wrote:
Sparta on steroids estrogen.


Interesting to bring up ancient Greece. Wasn't it Athens who destroyed a small island nation that refused to give up its independence? :|

Quote:
That threat. Their telepathy is a pretty important part of how they police their borders, so they won't be amused by our lotai.


The thing is, humans can hardly take an advantage of it. It's as if NATO discovered a native tribe in Africa which could completely evade radar/lidar/sonar/IR cameras/passive EM sensors/etc. through the use of their tribal magic. It would of course be a curiosity to be studied, but hardly a threat to Western military might (spearmen can kill tanks only in Civilization games ;) ). Unless the Russians or the Chinese got their hands on the tribal shamans and used them to "cloak" their warships and jetfighters, which is sort of the problem we're debating here.

The Loroi are more than capable of patrolling their borders via traditional means. It's just that against the Umiak, their "farsensing" has become crucial due to their being hard pressed by the sheer numbers of the enemy fleets.


Tue Jan 01, 2013 6:54 am
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Post Re: Loroi sexuality
fredgiblet wrote:
You'll note that they were invaded. Texas was a free country that voluntarily joined the United States, much more similar situation.


While american history is not my strong point. I'm pretty certain that texas was not held at gunpoint when asked to join the US. And i'm most certain they can leave the union anytime they feel like it without the fear of genocide or occupation.


Quote:
As an American I'm fully aware of the importance of freedom fighters, however I don't see freedom fighters being relevant here. See below. Also I resent the idea that I'm a sniveling coward, I'm a yellow-bellied, lilly-livered, no-good coward. Get it right. :evil:


???.... I'm afraid i don't get the reference. Are you telling me that you are of a penguin species i've never heard of.

And i think that freedom fighters are a most important point. They will smile and tell us it's a fair bargain when they are holding us at gunpoint. It's a false choice and while you may think it's swell to be the emperors lapdog any human with a little pride and belief in our ideals will resist this facist regime.


Quote:
You seem to be assuming a great deal. You and others like you seem to be assuming that the Loroi are going to be omnipresent dictators demanding to control our every move. I think the most important disconnect in these discussions is that I see no such thing. I've stated many times that it would be stupid of the Loroi to be overbearing and I don't think the Loroi are stupid. Can you explain why you think that the Loroi will make significant changes to our culture? Beyond the obvious fact that we've met a powerful alien species, that will cause changes regardless of whether or not we join them. Why do you think it's in their best interests to cripple the very thing that makes us valuable?


Because they are going to weither they want to or not their dominance hinges upon it. Our culture is an affect of our environment and the loroi are going to affect that tremendously depending on their actions. We will be transformed from the people who once said "I wonder what exists out there" to "Why the fuck do you exist out here" if they go with your idea. Curiosity will be replaced with contempt, friendship replaced with hatred such is the nature of an oppressive relationship. Our culture doesn't thrive upon that.

And as you said the loroi have no interest in tampering with our culture and the best way to do that is to mind their own business. That can only be done with our independence as we will not cooperate on your terms.


Quote:
I don't think the Loroi will want to wipe us out or even fight with us. But I also don't think they will hesitate to if we make them. At present the only chance of them wiping us out is if they feel we might end up under the sway of the Umiak, the danger of the Umiak discovering the lotai and using it against the Loroi is simply too great, with that in hand the tide of war would immediately and irrevocably shift in favor of the Umiak. Other than that I see no reason for them to be hostile for some time.


Thats the point if they don't tolerate our independence (which to you they don't) we will force their hand. Besides it looks like the umiak are already cracking that coconut.

And my argument is based on the aftermath of the conflict. Humanities progress will be hampered by the union because they have no choice.

Quote:
On the other hand we have the potential to out-pace them by a great deal, in the next couple centuries if we're left alone we will rival or exceed them in power, they are quite comfortable on top and I don't see them taking too well to that. Don't forget that they see themselves as the heirs to the Soia and the rightful rulers of the galaxy, the idea of us over-powering them won't sit well. In the long-term an independent humanity is not only a military threat, but a threat to myth the Loroi have built around themselves, on the other hand if we're part of the Union and nominally under their control then they are still "in charge" while we're free to get as big as we want. The best part is that they'll probably happily do the fighting in any wars, we don't even need to have our own people going out and dying when they're insisting on the right to do it for us.


Again thats the point isn't. We will rival them and even exceed them and they are going to accept that or subjucate us. And them fighting our battles is just an excuse to mancipate us. We can fight our own battles in the future thank you very much we don't need the union for that. If they desire to figth beside us thet great but they will not fight our battles and claim we owe them allegiance.



Quote:
Considering that the members of the Union are prohibited from having militaries I think think that while genocide would be too far they certainly would have some very vigorous objections to us making warships. Whether or not the Loroi would eventually come into conflict with us if we remained independent is an interestign question, though largely an academic one since we won't BE independent for much longer. I expect that it would largely depend on whether or not they could come to accept that we were likely to out-pace and eventually replace them as the main power in the area. I expect that would be a very difficult pill for them to swallow, but I'm not certain that conflict would be inevitable.



Link please.

lets do a head count: We have besides the loroi the barsam, the neridi, the mannadi,the delrias, the arekka, the niberen, the golim and the pipolsid.

Ok the barsam are devoted to peace. They do not want a warfleet. The neridi are bankers and do not adept enough to need a warfleet. The mannadi, delrias, arekka and niberen are all subjucated they are not allowed anyways. The pipolsid are auqatic scientists not adept enough for war to need a warfleet. And the golims are slaves to the loroi and do not need a fleet.
Really is there any need to prohibit warfleets within the union when everyone who's in it is either a willing slave or a subjucated population?

Now how does humanity fit in to this?
We are not all scientist or peaceful, the vast majority of us are pretty dumb and violent. We are too independent as we are individualists who works best as a team of experts using their specialties in concordance with one another. We do not have a need for the union besides the need that the union have forced upon us. They will have to occupy us in order to control us in order for us to join the union which in all honestly is no different than joining willingly.

Our position is non negoiable. It is our independence of our subjucation.

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Last edited by Jericho on Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:12 am, edited 1 time in total.



Tue Jan 01, 2013 7:14 am
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Post Re: Loroi sexuality
Jericho wrote:
fredgiblet wrote:
You'll note that they were invaded. Texas was a free country that voluntarily joined the United States, much more similar situation.


While american history is not my strong point. I'm pretty certain that texas was not held at gunpoint when asked to join the US. And i'm most certain they can leave the union anytime they feel like it without the fear of genocide or occupation.


The last time somebody tried to leave the US, it ended with their occupation and near-genocide (Sherman's burning of the South)...


Tue Jan 01, 2013 7:29 am
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Post Re: Loroi sexuality
Victor_D wrote:
Jericho wrote:
fredgiblet wrote:
You'll note that they were invaded. Texas was a free country that voluntarily joined the United States, much more similar situation.


While american history is not my strong point. I'm pretty certain that texas was not held at gunpoint when asked to join the US. And i'm most certain they can leave the union anytime they feel like it without the fear of genocide or occupation.


The last time somebody tried to leave the US, it ended with their occupation and near-genocide (Sherman's burning of the South)...


True but that was because the south attacked first.

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Tue Jan 01, 2013 7:33 am
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Post Re: Loroi sexuality
Jericho wrote:
Victor_D wrote:
The last time somebody tried to leave the US, it ended with their occupation and near-genocide (Sherman's burning of the South)...


True but that was because the south attacked first.


Hahaha, yeah right :roll: History is written by the victors.


Tue Jan 01, 2013 7:35 am
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Post Re: Loroi sexuality
Victor_D wrote:
Jericho wrote:
Victor_D wrote:
The last time somebody tried to leave the US, it ended with their occupation and near-genocide (Sherman's burning of the South)...


True but that was because the south attacked first.


Hahaha, yeah right :roll: History is written by the victors.


And you have evidence that contradicts this? ;)

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If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through. General C.H Melchett commander of some unknown british regiment in the western front.


Tue Jan 01, 2013 7:40 am
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Post Re: Loroi sexuality
Jericho wrote:
Victor_D wrote:
Hahaha, yeah right :roll: History is written by the victors.


And you have evidence that contradicts this? ;)


It's heavily OT, so here's the short version: Union government refused the secession of the Southern states as illegal, declined to accept a peace treaty offered by the South, wouldn't negotiate with the Confederate government on the status of 'federal property' on the territory of the seceded states, and when the South tried to establish its sovereignty and remove Union military forces occupying portions of its territory, the Union effectively declared war on it. Lincoln wanted war and he got it.


Tue Jan 01, 2013 8:01 am
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Post Re: Loroi sexuality
Victor_D wrote:
Jericho wrote:
Victor_D wrote:
Hahaha, yeah right :roll: History is written by the victors.


And you have evidence that contradicts this? ;)


It's heavily OT, so here's the short version: Union government refused the secession of the Southern states as illegal, declined to accept a peace treaty offered by the South, wouldn't negotiate with the Confederate government on the status of 'federal property' on the territory of the seceded states, and when the South tried to establish its sovereignty and remove Union military forces occupying portions of its territory, the Union effectively declared war on it. Lincoln wanted war and he got it.


Interesting. Sources please? you can pm them if you prefer.

Either way it does actually validates my fears of the loroi union. The south is now a defeated region filled with people screaming "the south will rise again" and racism and anti science and anti central goverment. A pretty fitting analogy for the terrans if fredgiblet have his way.

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Tue Jan 01, 2013 8:12 am
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Post Re: Loroi sexuality
Jericho wrote:
Interesting. Sources please? you can pm them if you prefer.


Plain old Wiki will give you a good picture of the events that led to the war. It's just that many people see the ACW in terms of "evil slaver South attacked the good liberal North for no reason", which is totally false.

Quote:
Either way it does actually validates my fears of the loroi union. The south is now a defeated region filled with people screaming "the south will rise again" and racism and anti science and anti central goverment. A pretty fitting analogy for the terrans if fredgiblet have his way.


Yup. Joining the Loroi is easy. Unjoining them later might be a bit problematic. They're not the EU which will let you go amicably if you so choose.


Tue Jan 01, 2013 8:20 am
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Post Re: Loroi sexuality
Victor_D wrote:
Plain old Wiki will give you a good picture of the events that led to the war. It's just that many people see the ACW in terms of "evil slaver South attacked the good liberal North for no reason", which is totally false.


I never thought the north was that innocent to begin with. Abraham himself said that he waged war primarily to preserve the union, freeing the slaves was just a pr trick.

Quote:
Yup. Joining the Loroi is easy. Unjoining them later might be a bit problematic. They're not the EU which will let you go amicably if you so choose.


Which is why i advocate joining the alliance not the union.

And don't be so sure about the EU. There are many federalists who desire's nothing more than to create the united states of Europe and they don't care which countries they have to trample upon to do so.

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Tue Jan 01, 2013 8:27 am
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Post Re: Loroi sexuality
fredgiblet wrote:
Our merchant ships won't be much more useful than our warships. They are probably smaller and almost certainly much slower than the Loroi ships.

From what Arioch has said humans in Outsider might be longer lived than Loroi.




Our merchant ships may be slow, but they're free. No Loroi shipyards needed to produce them. Also, merchant ships generally won't need high accelleration unless they're trying to operate on/near the front lines. I would assume there is plenty of internal shipping needs within Loroi space.

As for humans living longer than the Loroi... is the Loroi figure used in the comparison natural/with medical lifespan, or Life expectancy with a giant war on?


Tue Jan 01, 2013 3:48 pm
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Post Re: Loroi sexuality
JQBogus wrote:
As for humans living longer than the Loroi... is the Loroi figure used in the comparison natural/with medical lifespan, or Life expectancy with a giant war on?


Natural, they don't do heavy medical extensions. Humans do. If the Loroi sought out medical life extensions they would probably out-do us by a wide margin.


Tue Jan 01, 2013 4:45 pm
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Post Re: Loroi sexuality
fredgiblet wrote:
From what Arioch has said humans in Outsider might be longer lived than Loroi.

Loroi: "potentially living for 400 years or more"
Terran: "current average life expectancy today is 65 years", "I wouldn't be surprised if average life expectancy doubled in the next 50-100 years, and continued to extend much farther than that."
I interpret this to mean something like 150-200 year life expectancy (at time of comic).

So the Loroi still have 2x our life expectancy.

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Tue Jan 01, 2013 6:44 pm
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Post Re: Loroi sexuality
Victor_D wrote:
1) They don't know and probably won't believe that this trend will continue. From what I've read, tech growth has slowed down in the early interstellar age for most civilizations. Humans may be a bit more creative by necessity (no Soia-era ruins to rediscover tech from), but the notion that they will out-science everybody in just a century or two will seem ridiculous to Loroi.


They will probably find the idea that we've advanced as quickly as we have ridiculous, but they can verify it and see that it's true. They would be stupid to assume that our tech advance will simply halt when we reach parity.

Quote:
2) China poses a massive long-term geopolitical threat to the US, even more so than the USSR in its age. It has posed such a threat ever since Deng Xiaoping began modernizing the country in the 1980s. If the US behaved like many on this forum expect the Loroi to behave, it would have launched a preventive nuclear attack against China in the early 1990s to return the country to the stone age. The US had the capability then to burn China to the ground with minimal losses to itself. Did it do that? No. Why not? Because the notion that a country might get relatively stronger in the future isn't a good enough reason to wipe it out.


Degree of difficulty and economic interdependance as well as international relations. A conventional war in China would be a nightmare, a nuclear war would result in the rest of the world turning against us. At the same time our businesses are throwing money at them creating economic dependencies that would be devastating to lose. I have no doubt that there was serious discussions about the China issue in the halls of power here. Chances are good that we are attacking them just as vigorously as they are attacking us in cyber-space, but they have the governmental power to erect the firewall and surpress any reports of success on our end while we don't.

Quote:
This. From their perspective, humans are not a threat any more than Nigeria is considered a threat (despite the UN projections that put its population at 700+ million people by the end of the century, more than the US and on par with the whole of Europe).


If Nigeria starts building stealth planes and supercarriers you can bet they'll be seen as a threat. Even if just a threat to the hegemony.

Jericho wrote:
While american history is not my strong point. I'm pretty certain that texas was not held at gunpoint when asked to join the US. And i'm most certain they can leave the union anytime they feel like it without the fear of genocide or occupation.


As has been covered they wouldn't be allowed to leave (I'd allow it, but I don't make the rules).

Quote:
Link please.


"Each member does not have its own military (though each does have its own police & patrol forces), but rather subordinates itself to the Loroi military, which acts as an executive entity."

http://well-of-souls.com/outsider/union_races.html

Quote:
We are too independent as we are individualists


Most of your point is focused on this so rather than saying basically the same thing over and over I'm just going to respond here.

You, and others, keep saying this, but I don't see it. I see plenty of people saying it, then immediately falling in line when the chips are down. We like to TALK about how independent we are but when it comes time to put up or shut up we grumble a bit then move on with our lives. Otherwise I'd expect riots in the streets at the mere mention of the EU (after all, how DARE the government give over authority to anyone else!) but that's not what I've seen, perhaps our Eurofriends can tell us of the devastation and collapse of individuality that has come about? Or did life go on more or less like it did before? "But" you say "They joined willingly!" and so they did, and guess what? We're going to join the Loroi Union willingly too. We'll ask for independence of course, but we won't get it, and we won't push the point, because our politicians will be too busy trying to secure us survival to worry about independence. There are, no doubt, people who will rage and foam at the mouth at the thought of giving over our independence, but they will be a minority, and a small one at that. The majority of people will be concerned with how this impacts their career, or their vacation plans rather than how it impacts their freedom, just like today.

The Loroi aren't going to force us to have our children grow up separate from their parents, they aren't going to make us submit forms in triplicate and get on a waiting list to have a girlfriend/boyfriend, they aren't going to tell us we have to eat their food or listen to their music or watch their plays, they aren't going to require us to use sign language and never speak unless we have to/distrust the person we're talking to, etc., etc., etc.

The average person probably won't even notice the difference pre- and post-treaty, except that we'll have some space elves hanging around the colleges and tech companies teaching, some bases being built and a TON of new government contracts for production of goods the Loroi can use.

Quote:
Our position is non negoiable. It is our independence of our subjucation.


Not only are you welcome to that opinion, you will probably still be welcome to it once the treaty is signed.


Tue Jan 01, 2013 7:37 pm
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