Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

[Keklas Rekobah]

Wouldn't a Mizol Parat be just as skilled at detecting evasion as she would be at being evasive?

[Arioch]

Wouldn't a Mizol Parat be just as skilled at detecting evasion as she would be at being evasive?

Possibly more so, depending on the individual.

[Bamax]

Can a warrior ask for a raise?

I was just thinking... after the adventures of Outsider whoever survives... what happens if they ask for a raise... or extra access to males for life... more than for average Loroi?

[Arioch]

Can a warrior ask for a raise?

I was just thinking... after the adventures of Outsider whoever survives... what happens if they ask for a raise... or extra access to males for life... more than for average Loroi?

Compensation for a warrior depends on her rank and station; it's not open to negotiation. Asking for more than was her due (or asking for a promotion or commendation) would be essentially the same as asking for a bribe. I think that's a big no-no in any professional military organization, but it's an especially egregious thing in the Loroi system, which has very strict laws governing warrior compensation. Unless the person she asked was also corrupt, the asker would be promptly arrested and brought up on charges.

[Bamax]

Can a warrior ask for a raise?

I was just thinking... after the adventures of Outsider whoever survives... what happens if they ask for a raise... or extra access to males for life... more than for average Loroi?

Compensation for a warrior depends on her rank and station; it's not open to negotiation. Asking for more than was her due (or asking for a promotion or commendation) would be essentially the same as asking for a bribe. I think that's a big no-no in any professional military organization, but it's an especially egregious thing in the Loroi system, which has very strict laws governing warrior compensation. Unless the person she asked was also corrupt, the asker would be promptly arrested and brought up on charges.

So unthinkable I guess... should have known.

Still.. I can't help but think a Loroi hero might feel a bit owed or entitled if they are directly responsible for helping save their people from certain annihilation.

Enough that they may choose to live among aliens who show them more respect and provide more royalties for saving the collective bodies of the union from annihilation or slavery.

[Arioch]

Are you under the impression that a modern American soldier is allowed to demand a pay raise, or that war heroes receive royalties? He isn't and they don't.

[Bamax]

Are you under the impression that a modern American soldier is allowed to demand a pay raise, or that war heroes receive royalties? He isn't and they don't.

Not a raise, but they do get a few royalties... such as discounts for veterans etc.

Also if they are a well known war hero chances are if they go to a place especially patriotic they can get their meals for free in restaurants.

Granted these are small things. I suppose if a Loroi wanted more they would have to exploit social media or seek royalities from aliens... which your average warrior would not be inclined to do... but one desparate for more glory than she felt she was entitled to could.

[Arioch]

There are strict anti-corruption rules governing what sources of income are legal for a warrior to have, and what kinds of things they may own as personal property. Receiving income outside legal sources, especially from foreign entities, would be a serious crime. Since they are not just the soldiers but also the police, administrators, and leaders of their society, having a profit motive is considered a conflict of interest, which is why these rules exist.

Loroi warriors are the elite class of their society. They have much higher status than civilians, and lack of respect is not an issue for them. Almost all governing bodies are made up of warriors. There's really no shortage of perks available to them. Loroi war heroes are often rewarded with promotions, commendations and a variety of additional perks, but these are not things that a warrior would ever dare ask for.

Warriors have limited use for stacks of cash, anyway. Their education, room and board and essentially all their benefits are paid for by the state. They don't retire and become civilians, but stay in the warrior class for their entire lives. Most of the things they value most can't be bought.

[Demarquis]

I would love to learn more about the civilian side of Loroi society (whom I assume are the majority) and how their life experiences and cultural attitudes are different from the warrior classes.

[Hālian]

You've probably answered these before, but I can't find them, so bleh:

…warrior compensation…

How are soldiers in the Loroi Imperial Fleet compensated?

There are strict anti-corruption rules governing what sources of income are legal for a warrior to have…

Which sources are those?

…and what kinds of things they may own as personal property.

Which kinds of things are those?

[Arioch]

I would love to learn more about the civilian side of Loroi society (whom I assume are the majority) and how their life experiences and cultural attitudes are different from the warrior classes.

Okay, that's a broad subject, but I can put together a few bullet points:

• These notes refer to female Loroi civilians. Loroi males are considered a separate group and operate under different rules.
• Whereas military uniformity makes the warrior culture more monolithic, the civilian experience is much more varied by locality. Civilian society on Deinar nations tends to be more regimented into insular, mercantile guild communities with strict traditions and rules, but other frontier nations such as on Maia or Donei can look more like free-wheeling capitalist societies that we are used to.
• The majority of civilians are born to warrior mothers, but who later decline, quit or fail warrior trials. This means that at least to a certain age they were raised in the warrior culture, and have similar core values to those of the warrior class.
• Regulations vary by locality, but when a warrior child becomes a civilian, she separated from her warrior family and friends. In more traditional cultures, this is taken to extremes in terms of being completely ostracized by warrior society.
• Nascent civilians are introduced into a new educational system. In some localities this is handled by the guild system, and in others it is handled by other government or private entities. The child is aided through the transition and steered into a vocation appropriate to her abilities and the local needs.
• Civilian culture is more of a sub-culture of the warrior culture than a completely distinct one. They were born to the same parents as the warriors and raised in the same creches. They consume the same arts and media and have most of the same traditions and heroes.
• Civilians have a complicated view of the warriors. It's analogous in some ways to the relationship between European commoners and aristocracy; there may be equal parts resentment and admiration. Except if most of the commoners were actually disinherited aristocrats. The warriors are both master and kin.
• Civilians are prohibited from owning or bearing most forms of weaponry, and are barred from miliary service (which includes most local government and administration). But other than that, there are few blanket restrictions on civilians. In particular, they can own many kinds of property and engage in many kinds of commerce that warriors cannot.
• Most civilians do not have the right to mate with males, and therefore don't have children. There are a few exceptions for very influential individuals. Children born to civilian mothers are automatically considered civilians and do not have the right to enter the warrior trials. There are also a few exceptions here (mainly for children manifesting powerful psionic abilities).
• The traditional guilds have complex and sometimes rigid social hierarchies, and so those civilians in the guild systems do not have as much personal freedom as some civilians living in less regimented circumstances. The guilds provide more social services, but allow less personal freedom. Guilds are similar to the military in that they provide for most living expenses and services, at the cost of giving their workers fairly small allowances for personal spending.
• Civilian fashions vary, but the universal commonality is that they wear their hair very short so as to distinguish themselves from warriors. This is partly in deference to the warrior class (and in some conservative localities it is enforced by law), but it is also partly in pride of being civilian.
• Civilians form their own social groups of close friends, who replace the social role of family. Often these are co-workers. Sometimes these groups include financial as well as social ties. Sometimes small guilds become effectively large families.
• Both local and federal governments are military by definition, but many if not most local governments include some kind of representation for civilian interests. This may take the form of a sort of guild "chamber of commerce," or a more formal assembly analogous to the Roman Council of the Plebians.
• Local governments will also employ civilian contractors for various duties and services.
• In more traditional societies, taxation is built into the guild system. In more modern societies, civilians may have to pay individual income or property taxes.

I guess I should probably start calling them "workers" rather than civilians, as that probably gives more of a sense of the social distinction between workers and warriors.

How are soldiers in the Loroi Imperial Fleet compensated?

Costs for education, health care and living expenses are covered by the state. Low-ranking warriors will usually receive some kind of allowance for personal expenses, which may be mostly in military scrip, or partially in cash if the warrior is stationed planetside or anywhere that not all needs can be met through military sources.

Higher-ranking warriors will often receive a larger stipend, and depending on the nature of her post may receive some perks like access to above-average housing, use of private vehicles, etc. Sometimes there is not a clear line between personal and professional uses for this income, as an officer may sometimes need to use “personal” funds to outfit her unit or staff with additional, non-standard or non-essential equipment or supplies.

All warrior females are allocated time with males. For lower-ranking warriors this will be mostly infrequent meetings tied to career milestones (graduation, promotion, etc.) and periodic counseling. Higher-ranking warriors will receive more regular time, and at the highest ranks a warrior may receive rights to control the assignments of one or more males. It is normally expected that the latter will be used as rewards for her subordinates and allies, rather than allocated exclusively to herself.

What income sources are legal?

Essentially all the above sources, that is, those provided in an official capacity by the government. Most other income from assets (stock, real estate, etc.) or gifts or payments from companies or other individuals are not legal.

A warrior may not collect rents or fees for use of properties under her control, or for her services or for those under her control.

A warrior may buy or sell real assets, but this will trigger an audit from regulators if she sells an item for more than she bought it for.

A warrior may inherit property or funds from relatives under some circumstances, but property must usually be placed in some kind of trust, and the rules restricting how such property can be accessed are complicated. For example, there are large family estates left over from the days of the clan system that are still nominally in the possession of the descendants of those families, but they are classified as historical assets and managed by government entities (similar to many royal palaces in Europe today).

A warrior may sometimes acquire property as an official gift from a local or foreign government, or through seizure in combat, or discovery (such as a found ancient artifact), but if it’s over a certain value it must normally be placed in trust as mentioned above. A common way to deal with this is to make it an asset of the warrior’s unit. (This is one of the reasons that most Loroi military commendations are unit citations rather than individual medals.)

What kinds of property may a warrior own?

It varies by circumstance, but for the most part it is limited to what a warrior may transport with her in the course of her duty. For most lower-ranking warriors this means only what she can fit in her footlocker or cabin. All items owned by a warrior above a certain value must be registered with the authorities, as must all transactions above a certain value.

A warrior may not normally own any any financial asset other than currency. So that excludes ownership of stock, equity, contractual rights, patents, etc.

A warrior may not normally own real estate, except indirectly through a trust in special cases as mentioned above. Warriors are frequently allocated semi-permanent use of a residential property without direct ownership, but they are not allowed to collect rent from such properties.

Why don't high-ranking warriors retire from military service so they can become rich civilians?

Aside from the fact that warriors are a social class as much as they are a profession, and many warriors would simply never consider giving up their hard-won social status as their society's elite, the short answer is that they can't. An obvious route around these anti-corruption rules would be for a warrior to somehow feather a nest for herself (such as through some accumulation of hidden assets, or through an agreement with a civilian organization trading favors with the promise of future compensation) and then just resign as a warrior and claim those profits as a civilian. So, a young warrior is free to drop from the trials or resign her warrior status without penalty, but once a warrior has obtained a certain level of seniority, her option to be honorably discharged as a civilian expires. A warrior may still be expelled from the warrior class past this point (voluntarily or involuntarily), and she will become a civilian, but she will in effect be a convicted criminal, and there will be restrictions on her financial activity and on any civilian organization that employs her or conducts business with her.

[gaerzi]

I guess I should probably start calling them "workers" rather than civilians, as that probably gives more of a sense of the social distinction between workers and warriors.

Warriors, workers, and a Queen. And a hivemind. Forget about the Umiak, the Loroi were the real ant-people all along!

[Snoofman]

I guess I should probably start calling them "workers" rather than civilians, as that probably gives more of a sense of the social distinction between workers and warriors.

Warriors, workers, and a Queen. And a hivemind. Forget about the Umiak, the Loroi were the real ant-people all along!

Clicky-click!

[Demarquis]

That's fascinating, but I can't work it mathematically. If the warrior class is smaller than the workers, and most children are born to warriors, then do they have a declining population?

[Arioch]

That's fascinating, but I can't work it mathematically. If the warrior class is smaller than the workers, and most children are born to warriors, then do they have a declining population?

No, Loroi don't have a declining population. Warriors are less than half of the female population, but not that much less. Males are only about ten percent of the total population, so even if less than half of the females reproduce, each having 2-3 kids is more than enough to keep the population growing. Males and worker females have 2-3 times the average lifespan of warrior females, so you'd probably need an average of less than 2 offspring per warrior if you wanted to maintain zero population growth.

Loroi children are raised communally, and some warrior females don't even carry the infant for the full gestation term, so it's not a huge burden for a warrior female to have a bunch of children if the need calls for it (not that having 2-3 kids over a 100-200 year average lifespan would be a big deal anyway). Since Loroi females mature to reproductive age in only about 10 years, population growth can be explosive if not carefully controlled.

[Demarquis]

Ah, I see. Warrior reproduction is high enough to achieve replacement not only for themselves, but also the worker half of the population. Also, "most" children are born to warrior mothers, but not ''that many" more. If worker reproduction is 2 kids per female, and warrior is 2.5, then (if I can do this right) Warriors have approx. 12% or so more kids than workers (I did that in my head, so not precise).

A couple of things jump out at me. One is that Loroi society is operating below their potential reproductive rate. Given their involvement in a potentially existential war, I would think that they would want as many Loroi as possible to fill all available war-related jobs and tasks (warrior or worker). So there must be other bottlenecks in play. The food supply?

Another is that their society's logistic and economic elements must function differently than ours. Most human countries have an average .5-1% soldier per capita ratio (it's .6% for NATO) (see https://www.nationmaster.com/country-in ... Per-capita). The most militarized country in the world (North Korea) is only 5%. Either the Loroi have an entirely different way of producing economically important goods and services, or they use the Warriors for a wide range of economic tasks we give to civilians.

I can well believe that, given the war, Worker life is almost as rigidly structured and organized as the Warriors. Given that the Loroi are a totalitarian Empire, who handles local issues that the Imperial Palace would have no interest in or knowledge of? Are there local governors? Or

[Arioch]

Ah, I see. Warrior reproduction is high enough to achieve replacement not only for themselves, but also the worker half of the population. Also, "most" children are born to warrior mothers, but not ''that many" more. If worker reproduction is 2 kids per female, and warrior is 2.5, then (if I can do this right) Warriors have approx. 12% or so more kids than workers (I did that in my head, so not precise).

I think you have misunderstood me. There are some civilian females who are allowed to have children, but it's a small minority, mostly very high-status individuals. The vast majority of Loroi, including males and worker females, are born to warrior mothers.

Human females need to have an average of at least 2 babies each for Zero Population Growth because they have to make up for their husbands who can't give birth. Loroi females don't have husbands, and the Loroi males are only about 10 percent of the population, so in a hypothetical situation where all Loroi females are allowed to reproduce, then the number of babies per female for ZPG is not 2, but 1.1. If you then limit reproduction to half of the female population, the babies required per reproductive female will double, but only to 2.2.

Also, Loroi have long lifespans and are reproductively viable throughout much of it, so while a human female can only have babies for about 20 years, a Loroi female can have babies for potentially hundreds of years. Combined with the shorter Loroi generation length of 10 years, you can't just think in terms of having just enough kids to replace you, since even if a Loroi mother "only" lives to be 200 years old, she can still live to see twenty generations of her offspring alive at the same time as she is. And as mentioned in the post above, workers and males have longer average lifespans than warrior females (their work is less hazardous and their lives less stressful) and therefore need to be replaced less often, so that further reduces the number of babies per warrior female required for ZPG.

A couple of things jump out at me. One is that Loroi society is operating below their potential reproductive rate. Given their involvement in a potentially existential war, I would think that they would want as many Loroi as possible to fill all available war-related jobs and tasks (warrior or worker). So there must be other bottlenecks in play. The food supply?

If all Loroi females were allowed to reproduce freely, with a generation length of only 10 years and 90% of the population able to give birth, the population would get out of control very quickly. This was the situation early in Deinar history, shortly after the collapse of the Soia civilization, which kept the Loroi in a dark age for millennia, since the population would explode until food supplies were exhausted, collapse, and repeat.

The population bottleneck for the modern Loroi is their child-rearing and education infrastructure, which is currently saturated. It's easy as humans to underestimate the potential impact of a 10 year generation length coupled with such a long reproductive lifespan. Tempo is currently 54 years old, and has "only" 2 daughters, but she also has 4 grandchildren, 4 great-grandchildren, and 1 great-great-grandchild. Keeping in mind that Tempo's mother and grandmother are still of childbearing age, in addition to all the sisters, aunts and cousins, that's a lot of kids in the family.

Another is that their society's logistic and economic elements must function differently than ours. Most human countries have an average .5-1% soldier per capita ratio (it's .6% for NATO) (see https://www.nationmaster.com/country-in ... Per-capita). The most militarized country in the world (North Korea) is only 5%. Either the Loroi have an entirely different way of producing economically important goods and services, or they use the Warriors for a wide range of economic tasks we give to civilians.

The Loroi warrior class are not just soldiers; they perform nearly all public sector jobs, including local and national government and administration, police and emergency services, education, etc. There are Earth nations today with public sector jobs as high as 40% of the population (notably Russia), so this shouldn't be that hard to imagine.

I can well believe that, given the war, Worker life is almost as rigidly structured and organized as the Warriors. Given that the Loroi are a totalitarian Empire, who handles local issues that the Imperial Palace would have no interest in or knowledge of? Are there local governors? Or

Loroi have different levels of government: interstellar (imperial), sector, planetary, national, and various levels of local. Individual Loroi nations have different forms of local government.

Worker guilds also function almost like minor local governments, and can have their own internal hierarchies, rules and enforcement mechanisms.

[Demarquis]

Ok, I get it now. Loroi biology is so different from ours that parallels to human institutions just don't translate. Psychologically, they must be very different from us. Since they are not raised in families (and I'm assuming that Tempo doesn't have a close familial relationship with all those descendants of hers), the formative experience of the Loroi must be the creche, and after that the school. Given that they treat their close circle of friends as something like the functional equivalent of a family, then they must perceive relationships of affection and intimacy very differently. That, and the fact that they are empaths- they must develop some sort of sympatico with their close friends, and more guarded relations with everyone else. I wonder how members of the same guild, but who are not close peers, manage to get along. They must have some pretty formalized approaches to dispute resolution.

In fact, since they possess what looks like pretty nearly human capacity for feeling anger and aggression, I'm surprised that they were able to overcome their tribalism and develop a sustainable interstellar civilization.

[SVlad]

Their economy with all this state owned sectors really resembles USSR. And warriors and workers are like party and non-party citizens. I wonder if they inherited inefficiency and corruption of Soviet economy.

[Arioch]

Ok, I get it now. Loroi biology is so different from ours that parallels to human institutions just don't translate. Psychologically, they must be very different from us. Since they are not raised in families (and I'm assuming that Tempo doesn't have a close familial relationship with all those descendants of hers), the formative experience of the Loroi must be the creche, and after that the school. Given that they treat their close circle of friends as something like the functional equivalent of a family, then they must perceive relationships of affection and intimacy very differently. That, and the fact that they are empaths- they must develop some sort of sympatico with their close friends, and more guarded relations with everyone else. I wonder how members of the same guild, but who are not close peers, manage to get along. They must have some pretty formalized approaches to dispute resolution.

For many, Loroi warrior family relations can be a little bit like those of the English upper class -- raised by a nanny, sent off to boarding school, then to university, etc. etc. But at some level, family is still family.

Some families can be closer-knit. Prior to the war and earlier in the war, Tempo was stationed planetside where she could live with her family, and they were a much closer group. Most Loroi warriors aren't deployed in the fleet or in forward bases, so this isn't that unusual.

Still, the closest "family" for most Loroi (both warrior and worker) is their immediate comrades and co-workers. For warriors, it's probably easy to imagine that these bonds are very strong, but for workers they can be equally strong, even without the forge of combat, because their co-workers are the only family they have (having usually been estranged from their biological warrior families).

In guilds or other private companies, similar social rules apply to our own business culture: there's a limit to how much you can pal around socially with a co-worker who's many levels above or below you in the org chart.

In fact, since they possess what looks like pretty nearly human capacity for feeling anger and aggression, I'm surprised that they were able to overcome their tribalism and develop a sustainable interstellar civilization.

I'm sometimes surprised that humans were able to do it either, but that's mostly when I'm feeling particularly pessimistic.

Their economy with all this state owned sectors really resembles USSR. And warriors and workers are like party and non-party citizens. I wonder if they inherited inefficiency and corruption of Soviet economy.

The more traditional Loroi societies still use an updated version of the mercantilist guild system that's not a completely free market, and so it's not the most efficient. Though some of the frontier nations (like those on pre-war Seren) havemore modern and open economies.

Corruption is not unknown, but it's not widespread. There are a lot of anti-corruption rules, as mentioned in the posts above. It's possible to break these rules, but criminality requires secrecy, and that's difficult to maintain in a telepathic society. Despite being authoritarian, Loroi society is fairly transparent. And if you run afoul of the rules, the folks investigating you will be -- yes, you guessed it -- the Mizol. That's an Internal Affairs unit you seriously don't want to mess with.