Well of Souls Forums

D-503 wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 28, 2024 2:42 am

Arioch wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 27, 2024 8:07 pm

The range of normal telepathy is only a few hundred meters, and telepathic intrusion usually requires close proximity or even physical touch.

Aside from normal telepathy - is there a possibility for eg Farseers or other Loroi equipped with "amplifiers" to break into other Loroi minds over greaater distance? Are there such devices? (i remember reading about civil war/bloodshed between Loroi - did they also commit mind-atrocities?)

The short answer is "no," but I'll expand on that.

Offensive telepathic warfare can generally be divided into two categories, the first being direct attack. The basic example of this is the telepathic "shout," which uses a high-powered telepathic transmission to impair the target mind, to 'deafen' telepathic reception, disorient or stun the target, weaken or eliminate mental defenses, or even damage the target mind. These are the sort of techniques used by Teidar, which benefit from amplification and can be effective at some range. These are not usually the kinds of attacks which access information or directly manipulate the target. The drawback of this type of attack is the possibility of damage to other minds than the intended target. Though it's possible to rune a telepathic transmission to a specific target, any loss in concentration can result to "leaking" to other targets; this can result in, for example, an attacker being stunned by her own shout. Such attacks at very long range or over large areas are possible, but with significant risk of collateral damage. Amplified attacks are even more likely to be "leaky."

The second category of attack is infiltration. These are the sort of techniques used by the Mizol, which can gather information, confuse or mislead the target mind, or in extreme cases, alter perception, memory, or even command action. Skill is normally more important than raw telepathic power in such techniques; though high power can be useful in forcing past mental barriers, less overt attacks are often more successful. Amplification is of limited benefit to such abilities, as it often reduces precision, and Mizol rarely use amplifiers. Most abilities beyond the simple reading of surface thoughts (which is as much a passive as an active ability) require very close range or even physical touch.

Arioch wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 28, 2024 4:04 am

The short answer is "no," but I'll expand on that.

Thank you very much.

Hm. So Farseers cannot "read" other minds over interstellar ranges, but merely "feel" their presence...
So when 803 CE Farseers on Deinar telepathically detected the Loroi population on Perrein, were they able to somehow "shout" to them, or establish another kind of contact?

Were they sure the Perreins were also Loroi? If so, how?

Can Farseers distinct between Loroi and other Lifeforms?
Or did they just found out after reaching Perrein?

D-503 wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 28, 2024 5:03 am

Hm. So Farseers cannot "read" other minds over interstellar ranges, but merely "feel" their presence...
So when 803 CE Farseers on Deinar telepathically detected the Loroi population on Perrein, were they able to somehow "shout" to them, or establish another kind of contact?

What Farseers do is detect the signatures of distant minds. They don't read messages or thoughts or otherwise communicate. The Deinar Loroi were not able to communicate with the Loroi on Perrein until they sent ships there.

D-503 wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 28, 2024 5:03 am

Were they sure the Perreins were also Loroi? If so, how?
Can Farseers distinct between Loroi and other Lifeforms?
Or did they just found out after reaching Perrein?

Yes, different species normally have distinct signatures. The Deinar Loroi thought that the Perrein signatures were Loroi, but they weren't certain until the scouts arrived.

Arioch wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 28, 2024 6:51 am

What Farseers do is detect the signatures of distant minds. They don't read messages or thoughts or otherwise communicate. The Deinar Loroi were not able to communicate with the Loroi on Perrein until they sent ships there.

That brings me back to my question from Saturday:

D-503 wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 27, 2024 6:56 pm

Sounds a bit impractical. Or does matter "shield" sanzai to certain degree? Lets say 50m of concrete or 3m of lead?

So Interstellar distances are vast, but "empty" - Farseers on the surface of Deinar detected Loroi on the surface of Perrein...
Would this have been possible if the Perreins were "cavemen", deep under the surface, probably even "shielded" by iron ore?
And by this - can Farseers detect Pipolsid and Pol, since they´re aquatic races and probably livin quite deep within their worlds?

Arioch wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 28, 2024 6:51 am

Yes, different species normally have distinct signatures.

Since i love to speculate about how the Umiak are now able to "troll" Farseers - is here the key to this phenomenon?

D-503 wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 29, 2024 3:47 am

So Interstellar distances are vast, but "empty" - Farseers on the surface of Deinar detected Loroi on the surface of Perrein...
Would this have been possible if the Perreins were "cavemen", deep under the surface, probably even "shielded" by iron ore?
And by this - can Farseers detect Pipolsid and Pol, since they´re aquatic races and probably livin quite deep within their worlds?

Matter does not normally interfere with telepathic signals. Being underwater did not prevent Pipolsid from being detected.

That said, telepathic signals can be dampened (as well as amplified) by certain combinations of materials arranged into certain structures. For example, Fireblade has a sleep chamber than dampens her "leaky" telepathic transmissions so as to reduce the degree to which they bother her shipmates. However, the Loroi do not know of any such devices that can completely hide a telepathic signature.

D-503 wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 29, 2024 3:47 am

Arioch wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 28, 2024 6:51 am

Yes, different species normally have distinct signatures.

Since i love to speculate about how the Umiak are now able to "troll" Farseers - is here the key to this phenomenon?

I'm not sure what your question is driving at. The current issue with Farseer detection of certain Umiak fleets is not that they're looking for Umiak but finding something unexpected, but rather that they're looking for anything and finding nothing.

Arioch wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 29, 2024 5:34 am

D-503 wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 29, 2024 3:47 am

Since i love to speculate about how the Umiak are now able to "troll" Farseers - is here the key to this phenomenon?

I'm not sure what your question is driving at. The current issue with Farseer detection of certain Umiak fleets is not that they're looking for Umiak but finding something unexpected, but rather that they're looking for anything and finding nothing.

(I curse the translation divide...)

That´s what i´m thinking about - that Umiak found something to "shift" their telepathic signature away from the range Loroi can see.
From what i understand, no lifeform can "suppress" their signatures, or, hide them from the Loroi.
And the Loroi themselves don't understand exactly how farsensing works, they just use Soia-artifacts.

So the Umiak found a way to alter or shift their signature to make it undetectable to Loroi (Probably by genetic engineering?).

To illustrate this (i know farsensing has nothing to do with "frequency"), if Loroi can only detect "VHF", then "shifting" "signatures" into "UHF" would leave them at a loss, since they cannot detect "UHF".

I mean, as Loroi can´t see humans - i guess we´re outside the "detectable band", too.


(My bet is still, that Farseers do not detect minds directly, but their impact on the fabric of sub- or Hyperspace, since farseeing is FTL)

.

And related to that: Will we (the audience) find out/get told about all this somewhere in the future?

"My bet is still, that Farseers do not detect minds directly, but their impact on the fabric of sub- or Hyperspace, since farseeing is FTL"

That's very clever, but if true, shouldn't they be able to detect ships in transit as well?

I guess if they got their hands on a farseer they could presumably have found some way to evaluate artificial means of reducing their own psychic cross section. They could then go on to spend many years happily experimenting away at that for however long their poor test subject(s) lasted.

D-503 wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 29, 2024 11:39 pm

And related to that: Will we (the audience) find out/get told about all this somewhere in the future?

That would be poor writing if such an important question was left unanswered, in my opinion.

Demarquis wrote: ↑

Tue Jan 30, 2024 12:38 am

"My bet is still, that Farseers do not detect minds directly, but their impact on the fabric of sub- or Hyperspace, since farseeing is FTL"

That's very clever, but if true, shouldn't they be able to detect ships in transit as well?

Jumping ships are only in hyperspace for a fraction of a second, so I think this would be difficult to prove one way or another.

Arioch wrote: ↑

Tue Jan 30, 2024 4:33 am

That would be poor writing if such an important question was left unanswered, in my opinion.

No insult! But interesting, which questions remain unanswered...

.


Or: If our heroes bring back the whole Umiak-ship, would Loroi-Scientists be able to find out if some genetic modifications caused the Lotai? I mean, Fireblade made short work out of them, but maybe they will find something during the autopsy?

Too many "if's" in that question.

Arioch wrote: ↑

Tue Jan 30, 2024 4:33 am

D-503 wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 29, 2024 11:39 pm

"My bet is still, that Farseers do not detect minds directly, but their impact on the fabric of sub- or Hyperspace, since farseeing is FTL"

Jumping ships are only in hyperspace for a fraction of a second, so I think this would be difficult to prove one way or another.

I don`t think jumps and minds affect the fabric of either sub- or hyperspace the same way. Jumps are definitely violent outbursts of (a lot of) energy, and i´m pretty sure that´s not the case with minds.

Though i think, since farseeing is FTL, the sudden vanishing of minds in one system, and their immediate "surfacing" in another must be (literally) pretty noteworthy...

Arioch wrote: ↑

Tue Jan 30, 2024 8:06 am

Too many "if's" in that question.

Haha.
But what i said: Interesting, which questions remain unanswered...

"Jumping ships are only in hyperspace for a fraction of a second, so I think this would be difficult to prove one way or another."

What's true of the ships is also true of the minds, not so?

Demarquis wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 02, 2024 1:11 am

"Jumping ships are only in hyperspace for a fraction of a second, so I think this would be difficult to prove one way or another."

What's true of the ships is also true of the minds, not so?

What I mean is that even if telepathy and farsensing do work between hyperspace and real spacetime, I don't think this is of any practical value, and I don't think anyone could even prove that it does one way or another. There's no test you could perform that wouldn't be completely subjective. You could ask the Farseer if she thinks she detected something during the fraction of a second that a ship is in hyperspace, but even if she says 'yes,' there's no way I can think of to test whether this detection was real or imagined.

Arioch wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 02, 2024 3:57 am

You could ask the Farseer if she thinks she detected something during the fraction of a second that a ship is in hyperspace, but even if she says 'yes,' there's no way I can think of to test whether this detection was real or imagined.

I my "theory" about "farseeing" i don´t think minds do have an impact on hyper- or subspace while IN hyperspace for a fraction of a second.
I think minds in real space somehow interact or "dent" the fabric of hyper- or subspace.
What farseers then "see" is the derivation of this impact, one metalevel below.

While in hyperpace, there is no such "impact". At least not in the way it is in real space.

IMHO way more significant is the sudden shift of a "pile of minds" from one location to the other.

Arioch wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 02, 2024 3:57 am

Demarquis wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 02, 2024 1:11 am

"Jumping ships are only in hyperspace for a fraction of a second, so I think this would be difficult to prove one way or another."

What's true of the ships is also true of the minds, not so?

What I mean is that even if telepathy and farsensing do work between hyperspace and real spacetime, I don't think this is of any practical value, and I don't think anyone could even prove that it does one way or another. There's no test you could perform that wouldn't be completely subjective. You could ask the Farseer if she thinks she detected something during the fraction of a second that a ship is in hyperspace, but even if she says 'yes,' there's no way I can think of to test whether this detection was real or imagined.

Nevermind, D-503 just changed my understanding of the question.

D-503 wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 02, 2024 1:57 pm

Arioch wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 02, 2024 3:57 am

You could ask the Farseer if she thinks she detected something during the fraction of a second that a ship is in hyperspace, but even if she says 'yes,' there's no way I can think of to test whether this detection was real or imagined.

I my "theory" about "farseeing" i don´t think minds do have an impact on hyper- or subspace while IN hyperspace for a fraction of a second.
I think minds in real space somehow interact or "dent" the fabric of hyper- or subspace.
What farseers then "see" is the derivation of this impact, one metalevel below.

While in hyperpace, there is no such "impact". At least not in the way it is in real space.

IMHO way more significant is the sudden shift of a "pile of minds" from one location to the other.

Ah, that's not what I originally thought you were saying. In that case, the question becomes why a mind would have an impact or effect on hyperspace that ship-sized objects do not.

Note--my understanding (without looking it up again) is that hyperspace jumps are a function of space being warped by the gravity of a star. That is, physical objects with sufficient mass can provide access across hyperspace. Brains, obviously, do not have sufficient mass. Therefore, if farseeing is contingent upon minds having some effect on hyperspace independent of their mass, one wonders how this effect is occurring.

Have there ever been Loroi fossils discovered? Fossils or mummies dating back anywhere between the Soia Empire's collapse and the Era of Reunification? Not just on the Sister Worlds but any of the other known planets/moons in Union space? Could you name a few examples?

Snoofman wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 05, 2024 7:25 pm

Have there ever been Loroi fossils discovered? Fossils or mummies dating back anywhere between the Soia Empire's collapse and the Era of Reunification? Not just on the Sister Worlds but any of the other known planets/moons in Union space? Could you name a few examples?

There are a variety of Loroi remains on the three Sister Worlds dating back to Fall, but none are known from before that period or on planets other than those three.

Arioch wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 05, 2024 7:55 pm

Snoofman wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 05, 2024 7:25 pm

Have there ever been Loroi fossils discovered? Fossils or mummies dating back anywhere between the Soia Empire's collapse and the Era of Reunification? Not just on the Sister Worlds but any of the other known planets/moons in Union space? Could you name a few examples?

There are a variety of Loroi remains on the three Sister Worlds dating back to Fall, but none are known from before that period or on planets other than those three.

Have scientists ever studied these remains? Recovered genetic material from these remains? Have there ever been suggestions to recreate these specimens to satisfy Loroi’s scientific questions? By recreate I mean through procedures like cloning?