Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thread

[Bamax]

Memorizing chess moves doesn't make someone a good tactician. The movement of chess pieces is 100% deterministic; one piece captures another 100% of the time, and so for any given board state, there is a mathematically "best" move. Real battles don't work like that, which is why most wargames include a random element in combat resolution. On any given Sunday, any unit can defeat any other unit, and so tactics is about what you do after the strategic plan fails to survive contact with the enemy, and how you balance risk vs. reward. "Tactics mean doing what you can with what you have."

That is cerrainly true... I presume a closer analogue would be some kind of combination game mixing elements of stratego (for the random element factor) and chess (long range and varied abilities).

Of course the Loroi are like a living entire race of random probabilities and superior firepower, which is why they have been holding out for so long.

While it is obvious the Umiak can out produce any of their current enemies in war, I think defeating them or ending the war can only be done a few ways.

1. Go nuclear. Difficult and.... both in practice and polutically, since doing this puts all of them on the extinction list not just the Loroi. In theory maybe a stealth Loroi fleet could fly in and AM bomb all their bases and then the the largest armada the Union can field (including all members) would attempt to mop up the remaining fleets despite being outnumbered.

2. Somehow broker a ceasefire because Umiak and Loroi by finding a more pressing concern or they find a compromise preferable to killing each other until either dies.

3. The Loroi kick their butts outright Does not seem likely though due to sheer numbers. At most I can see the Loroi disabling their Lotai and the Umiak sueing for peace after finally tiring of setbacks they have not had with other aliens they have conquered.

[Cthulhu]

1. Go nuclear. Difficult and.... both in practice and polutically, since doing this puts all of them on the extinction list not just the Loroi. In theory maybe a stealth Loroi fleet could fly in and AM bomb all their bases and then the the largest armada the Union can field (including all members) would attempt to mop up the remaining fleets despite being outnumbered.

The torpedoes that both sides commonly use are already far more powerful than any nukes, and a stealth fleet is simply impossible.

2. Somehow broker a ceasefire because Umiak and Loroi by finding a more pressing concern or they find a compromise preferable to killing each other until either dies.

Who would be the broker, and why would the Hierarchy listen to them?

3. The Loroi kick their butts outright Does not seem likely though due to sheer numbers. At most I can see the Loroi disabling their Lotai and the Umiak sueing for peace after finally tiring of setbacks they have not had with other aliens they have conquered.

Right now, the Umiak are winning. Even if the Loroi find a way to circumvent that fleet-lotai, they have no way to seize the initiative.

[Demarquis]

"Who would be the broker, and why would the Hierarchy listen to them?"

Humanity might have been able to do this, from the Umiak point of view, because we have an advantage over the Loroi that the Umiak didn't...

...until recently.

[Cthulhu]

Humanity might have been able to do this, from the Umiak point of view, because we have an advantage over the Loroi that the Umiak didn't...

...until recently.

You and what army?
The Humans in the comic are so puny, why would the Hierarchy take them seriously?

[Arioch]

Public service announcement: The Loroi and Umiak have no faster-than-light communications, so unless an Umiak sees Alex, recognizes him as non-Loroi, and survives to report it to someone who can then leave the system and relay the message back to Umiak lines, there is no way for the Umiak command structure to know that Alex aided the Loroi in the takeover of KTKh-3827.

[Bamax]

What happens in space stays in space.

Like Vegas. Or way before Vegas the ocean on a sailing ship.

[Demarquis]

"The Humans in the comic are so puny, why would the Hierarchy take them seriously?"

Actually, that's what helps make a good mediator: someone who can't threaten either side. They also have a strong incentive to help achieve a lasting peace.

[Cthulhu]

Actually, that's what helps make a good mediator: someone who can't threaten either side. They also have a strong incentive to help achieve a lasting peace.

For starters, both sides need to take the mediator seriously. Humans, however, are a completely unknown, inexperienced, low-tech, small and insignificant realm. Then, why would the Hierarchy even need mediators in the first place? From their point of view, they are winning, and an unconditional surrender doesn't need any mediation. The only thing the Humans might be useful for, would be psi-resistant guards for the defeated Loroi.

[Keklas Rekobah]

↑ ↑↑ Sometimes the best mediator is one who could put a smackdown on both sides at once.

[gaerzi]

The Humans in the comic are so puny, why would the Hierarchy take them seriously?

Because they are described as paranoid and therefore would refuse to underestimate any potential threat until it has been thoroughly analyzed and either integrated into the Hierarchy as a productive vassal state or entirely annihilated.

[Demarquis]

Of course, I'm presuming that either side is interested in mediation in the first place. A good mediator is someone with no agenda or bias toward one side or the other, is knowledgeable about the issues, is tough enough (or distant enough) not to be easily intimidated by either side, and has some incentive to want a sustainable peace. A reputation for a peaceful nature and some degree of wisdom is nice, but not required.

If you have a faction that is tough enough to smack down either side (or both), that isn't a mediator, that's a cop. Don't cause trouble when the cops are around.

[Bamax]

Gowron could do it with the TNG/DS9 Klingons... although I think he would be far more inclined to lay the smackdown.

It would be hilarious to see nonetheless if he was his Star Trek Klingon Gowron self.... which both funnier and more sly than his other official TV appearances.

Loroi would have difficulty NOT laughing at him, which probably would not win them any points in Gowron's favor, yet the Umiak look like giant beasts just waiting to be hunted so that also makes Gowron want to go after them on pure Klingon bloodlust and ambition... glory... all that stuff.








That's besides the fact that because Star Trek is a more soft scifi setting than Outsider... it increases the odds in the Klingons favor for trouncing both the Loroi and Umiak.

They would take heavy losses though. Especially if they try that close up in your face uncloak and blast you stuff.

From watching Elite Dangerous on youtube, I am quite aware that when you mix it up with newtonian and airplane-ish flight in space, newtonian will stay on target more than airplqne flight... so the klingons, which are virtually exclusively airplanes in space style, would get shot up to no end.

[Snoofman]

…From watching Elite Dangerous on youtube, I am quite aware that when you mix it up with newtonian and airplane-ish flight in space, newtonian will stay on target more than airplqne flight... so the klingons, which are virtually exclusively airplanes in space style, would get shot up to no end.

I seem to recall reading a speculative article about the ideal shaped spacecraft for combat, which apparently is a long cylinder if I remember correctly. For the life of me I can’t remember the name.

[spacewhale]

Need that General Products #2 hull. Pretty sure a bunch of cigar shaped ships taking pot shots at each other is the Honorverse in a nutshell, but seems like a boring ship design.

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[Demarquis]

If you dont mind my asking, where is that second picture from?

[Arioch]

If you dont mind my asking, where is that second picture from?

It's the cover to "Neutron Star," a collection of Niven's "Known Space" short stories. The illustration depicts Beowulf Shaeffer's General Products starship from the titular short story.

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[gaerzi]

If you dont mind my asking, where is that second picture from?

The "General Products" hulls in Niven's books are made out of a transparent material, which is described as being in fact a single molecule of exotic matter. While they allow visible light to go through, they are fully opaque to the rest of the electromagnetic spectrum, and practically indestructible except with antimatter, cutting it with the boundary of a hyperjump, or -- if you know how to do it -- very specific and precisely-aimed laser pulses.

On the other hand, if you do manage to destroy it, then it is completely destroyed -- it basically burst like a soap bubble as the exotic supermolecule dissolves into a cloud of normally-sized mundane molecules.

This also means that you can't customize or change the shape of the hull. There's only four models mentioned in the books -- the one on this cover is the GP #2 hull -- so you've got to glue your own bits to it if you want stuff that needs to stick out of the hull, like, say, engines and weapons.

[Arioch]

Since they're transparent to visible light, the interior is completely vulnerable to lasers in the visible spectrum, and the bits hanging off the outside don't have any special protection. But I don't think they're intended for use as warships... since advanced medicine has made everyone functionally immortal, the chief concern is safety.

However, I don't recall if Niven ever addressed how you get in and out of the thing. It's got to have a door, and even if the door is made of the same material, the interface is going to be vulnerable.

[GeoModder]

However, I don't recall if Niven ever addressed how you get in and out of the thing. It's got to have a door, and even if the door is made of the same material, the interface is going to be vulnerable.

Not only does it need an airlock hatch and hangar doors, but also openings were cables can run through to the parts attached to a GP hull. I remember a description of the Hot needle of Inquiry in Ringworld, when Louis Wu inspects the ship for the first time, how a single egress point permits the wiring of the equipment on the hull to go in, and the hatch mechanism that can close it off. Iirc, the hatch wasn't made of GP hull material.

[Arioch]

However, I don't recall if Niven ever addressed how you get in and out of the thing. It's got to have a door, and even if the door is made of the same material, the interface is going to be vulnerable.

Not only does it need an airlock hatch and hangar doors, but also openings were cables can run through to the parts attached to a GP hull. I remember a description of the Hot needle of Inquiry in Ringworld, when Louis Wu inspects the ship for the first time, how a single egress point permits the wiring of the equipment on the hull to go in, and the hatch mechanism that can close it off. Iirc, the hatch wasn't made of GP hull material.

I was thinking about attachment points, but theoretically they could just glue the stuff on the outside and communicate with it from the inside with photon signals, but that means all the power and couplings, etc, need to run outside the hull.

But I mean... this is a setting in which the ultra-tech civilization (the Puppeteers) understand less about how gravity works than humans did in 1687... because their homeworld didn't have a moon. Yeah, right.