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Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thread 
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
Onaiom wrote:
About the Pipolsid:

How they manage to develop a technological civilization ? Fire is effectively impossible without specialized resources...

They use some sort of "seacrete" (somewhat resembling shellfish shells) in their construcions ?

I presume that they extract metal supplies from the deep sea, in raw form ?

How they interact with the other races ?

How they get in orbit ? Water is heavier than air. Their ships must be small then ?

They use the Loroi for most of their defense ?


In submarine titan (an awesome game but MP was... annoying) The sea native species have their ship hull silicon based. while the invading human use the titanium.

what i mean to say is; different world different material :P for all we know they could grow "shell" the same way a coral reef are formed


Tue Jun 09, 2015 2:12 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
Karst45 wrote:
In submarine titan (an awesome game but MP was... annoying) The sea native species have their ship hull silicon based. while the invading human use the titanium.

what i mean to say is; different world different material :P for all we know they could grow "shell" the same way a coral reef are formed


A high-tech culture might select, cultivate or genetically engineer species of coral to grow in a controlled manner. This introduces the possibility of "biotechnological" undersea civilization. But how a culture use hig-tech methods to build a civilization without being high-tech ?

It creates a paradox ...

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Tue Jun 09, 2015 2:46 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
Onaiom wrote:
Karst45 wrote:
In submarine titan (an awesome game but MP was... annoying) The sea native species have their ship hull silicon based. while the invading human use the titanium.

what i mean to say is; different world different material :P for all we know they could grow "shell" the same way a coral reef are formed


A high-tech culture might select, cultivate or genetically engineer species of coral to grow in a controlled manner. This introduces the possibility of "biotechnological" undersea civilization. But how a culture use hig-tech methods to build a civilization without being high-tech ?

It creates a paradox ...


You are thinking within the box, the fact that we had to have to evolve high tech in order to have genetic engineering doesn't mean that a completely alien organism won't somehow have a way to do it naturally to a degree.

In short, what if conscious selecting of offspring traits was possible for an alien organism?

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Tue Jun 09, 2015 3:02 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
hi hi

Primitive humans have been able to radically alter the physical traits of plants and animals using basic selective breeding techniques. Just look at what people have done with dogs.

Also, if undersea creatures want to smelt something, undersea vents can produce a fair amount of heat.


Tue Jun 09, 2015 5:09 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
dragoongfa, I think, was referring to an organism being able to consciously select the traits of its own offspring. ;)

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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
Onaiom wrote:
About the Pipolsid:
How they manage to develop a technological civilization ? Fire is effectively impossible without specialized resources...
They use some sort of "seacrete" (somewhat resembling shellfish shells) in their construcions ?

The early Pipolsid civilization developed extensive aquaculture methods, domesticating marine organisms that secrete calcium carbonate, and later sophisticated polymers. So yes, many of their early tools and structures were made from seashell material. They developed mechanical power and electricity (driven by current or wave action) without mastering fire or metallurgy. Most early metal technologies wouldn't have been much use underwater, so they would have had to progress through the equivalent of the industrial age through the use of carbonates and polymers.

Onaiom wrote:
I presume that they extract metal supplies from the deep sea, in raw form ?

I guess it depends on the metal. I think in any oxygen-rich environment, the metals rust out of the seawater and collect in deposits on the sea floor. So they'll probably have to mine for any metals they need.

Onaiom wrote:
How they interact with the other races ?

They have to use mechanical translators similar to the ones the Umiak use.

Onaiom wrote:
How they get in orbit ? Water is heavier than air. Their ships must be small then ?

This would make the crew sections more massive, but even so at this tech level I doubt the crew accounts for a major portion of the mass of a ship.

Onaiom wrote:
They use the Loroi for most of their defense ?

Yes, but so do all of the Union members, since they aren't allowed to have their own star fleets.

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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
About the Delrias:

How they lose the war against the Loroi ?

"Subjugated Population" means that there are Sorion armies occupying Kabel's major population centers ?

There is a Delrias space or the Loroi stripped them from their colonies ?


Tue Jun 09, 2015 10:40 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
Onaiom wrote:
About the Delrias: How they lose the war against the Loroi ?

The Loroi defeated the Delrias star fleet in a series of space battles, and then invaded and occupied the planets under Delrias control.

Onaiom wrote:
"Subjugated Population" means that there are Sorion armies occupying Kabel's major population centers ? There is a Delrias space or the Loroi stripped them from their colonies ?

There are Loroi military bases on all of the Delrias worlds, and each world is technically under an occupation government administrated by a Loroi military governor, but the Loroi keep a low profile and allow the Delrias to do pretty much whatever they want as long as they don't rise up in revolt.

There's more about Delrias occupation status here.

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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
About the Nibiren:

The Loroi built a colony in Halli and discovered a pre-industrial species. They never thought about giving (or trading) the colony to the Barsam, so they can uplift the Nibiren ?

The Loroi call them "farmers" (or "diggers"), the Barsam see that as an insult ?

They also use the Nibiren as farmers, but Halli ecosystem don't have Soia-Liron organisms. So the Loroi can eat non-Soia-Liron food ?

The Loroi even do somenthing to help the Nibiren ?


Wed Jun 10, 2015 2:42 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
Onaiom wrote:
About the Nibiren: The Loroi built a colony in Halli and discovered a pre-industrial species. They never thought about giving (or trading) the colony to the Barsam, so they can uplift the Nibiren ?

The Loroi don't seem like the sort who are in the habit of giving away colonies to their rivals just to be nice. The Barsam, as full members of the Union, have unfettered access to Halli, and so can do all the uplifting they like.

Onaiom wrote:
The Loroi call them "farmers" (or "diggers"), the Barsam see that as an insult ?

Why would it be an insult? The Barsam had to teach the Nibiren to farm; it's an advanced skill as far as they're concerned.

Onaiom wrote:
They also use the Nibiren as farmers, but Halli ecosystem don't have Soia-Liron organisms. So the Loroi can eat non-Soia-Liron food ? The Loroi even do somenthing to help the Nibiren ?

The Loroi can eat non-Soia-Liron food (Perrein has almost exclusively non-Soia-Liron food items), but farming was introduced to the Nibiren by the Barsam, and so some of what they produce probably is Soia-Liron and intended for sale to the Loroi colonists.

The Loroi mostly leave the Nibiren alone; they don't see that the Nibiren need any "help;" they're living in their own naturally evolved culture. The Barsam have been trying to modernize the Nibiren, teaching them new techniques and giving them medicines and items of technology (and the ability to trade farm produce for these modern items and supplies). The Barsam see this as helping (which they believe is their duty), but some might see it as interference with and even destruction of a native culture. Guess it depends on your point of view.

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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
Quote:
There are Loroi military bases on all of the Delrias worlds, and each world is technically under an occupation government administrated by a Loroi military governor, but the Loroi keep a low profile and allow the Delrias to do pretty much whatever they want as long as they don't rise up in revolt.


*click link*

Quote:
Subjugated Population: Delrias
The five Delrias star systems are still under Loroi occupation, and so each is ruled by a Loroi military governor appointed by the Loroi Emperor. After the Second Mannadi War, in recognition of the contributions of the Delrias to the war effort, an act of the Union Assembly granted formal Union citizenship to all Delrias individuals and authorized locally-determined native governments, but this was largely a symbolic gesture. Each Delrias system has its own native government and sends a delegate to the Union Assembly, but these delegates have no votes, and the Delrias local governments are legally subordinate to the Loroi military administration. By tradition, the Loroi officials keep a low profile and leave most local decisions to native authorities, but the Loroi reserve the right to take any action that is deemed necessary, and that includes suppressing native movements for nationalism or independence. Loroi intelligence agents routinely "remove" any Delrias leaders who openly challenge Loroi rule or privately plot against it. As you might expect, the telepathic Loroi are very effective at this.

The Delrias are proud, aggressive, and bombastic; to speak to one, you might get the impression that she was not aware that her people had lost a war. Prior to the Loroi war, the Delrias had a clan-based warrior culture in which physical conflict between factions and individuals was common. The quick subjugation of the proud Delrias war machine by the Loroi shook this warrior culture to its core, and a bloody and chaotic civil war followed. However, once the fires were extinguished, the Delrias continued on almost as if the Loroi war had never happened. The clan-based culture of conflict continues, though now through political and business channels instead of overtly military ones. The Delrias still resolve disputes through physical intimidation and sometimes outright violence. The periodic Loroi assassinations of Delrias nationalist leaders might generate more local outrage were it not for the fact that lethal conflicts between individuals and groups are still legal in most Delrias jurisdictions. For the most part, the Delrias seem content to fight amongst themselves.


Jebus on Pogo stick how the HECK did this species service the nuclear age. Are there very many species like this? These people seem psychotically insane.


Wed Jun 10, 2015 5:54 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
Bear in mind that we humans got so many nukes (enough to permanently destroy our habitats) because of the MAD stratagem, which dictates that if both sides are dead no one wins and no one starts a war that they can't win. However if the US decided to use atomic weapons aggressively before the USSR got one working then there would be no use for the MAD stratagem and the world can take several nuclear explosions with ease so we would still be here, although several cities would be erased from the map.

I doubt that an aggressive species will feel a need to stockpile large amounts of weapons in order not to use them, especially if no one else has them.

I suspect that when someone got the first nuke ready they used it in a war of conquest that would unify their species under a single banner.

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Wed Jun 10, 2015 6:02 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
You know what? after learning more about the crazies that the Loroi have been fighting all these centuries, I can understand why they did what they did to Alex during his initial contact. I take back the bad things I've been posting about the Loroi.

... I still hope Alex reads Tempo the riot act for letting him rot in that cell after recognizing him as a diplomat though, mind you.


Wed Jun 10, 2015 6:10 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
hi hi

I'm not sure that an aggressive species would necessarily use nukes as soon as they got them. They could have a strong sense of tradition that keeps their aggression roughly at a personal scale, or they may be so aggressive that they never build up stable alliances that necessitate weapons of mass destruction. If their aggression is hot enough and quick tempered enough, they might tend to resolve their differences before they have a chance to set up more cold-blooded designs. If they really like fighting, they might have personal preferences about how best to tear someone else apart.


Wed Jun 10, 2015 6:17 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
Quote:
I'm not sure that an aggressive species would necessarily use nukes as soon as they got them. They could have a strong sense of tradition that keeps their aggression roughly at a personal scale, or they may be so aggressive that they never build up stable alliances that necessitate weapons of mass destruction. If their aggression is hot enough and quick tempered enough, they might tend to resolve their differences before they have a chance to set up more cold-blooded designs. If they really like fighting, they might have personal preferences about how best to tear someone else apart.


Hmmm, that's a good point, you may be right. Weapons which allow you to be far away from your opponent might not be seen as particularly honorable.


Wed Jun 10, 2015 6:30 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
I agree that personal aggression doesn't always translate into international aggression. And vice versa. Delrias aggression is systematic, but mostly interpersonal. Even hostile, angry, borderline psychotic leaders can realize that MAD-like aggression against powerful foreign nations doesn't benefit their hopes for rule. Though of course that's not always the case, as we have experienced.

And I'll just point out that a nuclear war probably won't result in extinction of the master species, though it may result in the extinction of that modern culture. Very few scenarios of World War III on Earth would have resulted in the extinction of the human species, though they may have meant the destruction of our modern civilization. Some humans somewhere would have survived.

The Delrias and Morat are the descendants of an ancient precursor starfaring race (the Fenrias), who are almost a million years removed from their descendants, and who predate even the Dreiman and Soia eras. The Delrias and Morat are as far removed from their Fenrias ancestors as we are removed from Homo erectus. At least some part of Delrias aggression seems to be a recent development, as it is not shared by their Morat cousins. And yet the Fenrias also fought amongst themselves, using weapons of mass destruction. The Fenrias homeworld of Kabel, which is part of modern Delrias territory, had been obliterated in pre-Soia times by weapons of mass destruction at the hand of other Fenrias factions. The long history of Fenrias internecine warfare is mostly unknown, but certainly involved the extinction of numerous offshoot species and cultures. So ancient was the destruction of Kabel that in the era in which the Delrias fought the Loroi, their capital was Rubat, in a nearby system. Kabel, now a recovering but still marginal world, was not even recognized to be the home system of the Fenrias until after the Loroi-Delrias war.

The Delrias seem more psychotic at a small scale, but less psychotic at a large scale, than their precursor ancestors.

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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
This question is tied to the one on the Loroi Q&A thread. If Umiak combat cyborgs are expensive to produce and maintain, why are they used at all? Ground combat matters less in this setting. Even then, I'm under the impression that a hardtrooper is no match for a Teidar. If powered armor is not useful, why are cyborgs practical? Just use UGV's and regular grunts.
Also....it's nice to be back :D .


Mon Jun 15, 2015 5:09 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
Mr.Tucker wrote:
This question is tied to the one on the Loroi Q&A thread. If Umiak combat cyborgs are expensive to produce and maintain, why are they used at all? Ground combat matters less in this setting. Even then, I'm under the impression that a hardtrooper is no match for a Teidar. If powered armor is not useful, why are cyborgs practical? Just use UGV's and regular grunts.
Also....it's nice to be back :D .


From the insider: http://well-of-souls.com/outsider/forum_umiak.html

Quote:
Their external skeletons are stronger than an insect's chitin, but they still run into serious weight problems as they get larger, as a giant insect might. But because they evolved on a world with only one-third of Earth's gravity, the weight of the Umiak exoskeleton isn't a problem, and they are agile, swift creatures in their own environment. On a world with Earth-normal gravity, an unmodified Umiak can barely walk, which is why they rely so heavily on augmentation and modification.


Umiak can't really function well in normal gravity due to their exoskeleton. For civic use they could 'create' some civies that are stronger or with less dense exoskeleton (probably a combo of these two) but for combat use and policing this approach is a no because ground combat drops a lot of weight on one's shoulders (The weight a modern soldier carries around when campaigning is 70 kilos, around half of which is his combat weight). Then there is the constant need for 'boots on the ground' for the occupation of subjugated species.

I believe that their solution for the problem of being able to have ground troops occupying/attack normal gravity planets is split in two parts:

1st part: Big fleets above, more than capable to obliterate the entire planet if need be. Good as a psychological weapon in order to keep the masses in check.
2nd part: Cybernetic soldiers that are in essence what we imagine power armored soldiers to be. Stronger, heavily armed and armored than species that have evolved in those gravities. They are enough to stand toe to toe and overcome regular armed forces on their own but with orbital backup things are very one sided.

10.000 Hardtroops on standby ready to be deployed in an instant, combined with the firepower of the garrison fleet above them I doubt that any subjugated populace would think of rebelling.

Of course the Loroi are a bit different than other species so the Umiak have decided that they are not worth the trouble of occupying.

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Mon Jun 15, 2015 5:31 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
But I've been lead to understand that hardtroops are only part of the Umiak ground forces. The rest must be gene-spliced Umiak (to tolerate higher gravities as mentioned). So why not use those and UGVs? Or do the Umiak highly value psychological impact?
dragoongfa wrote:
Cybernetic soldiers that are in essence what we imagine power armored soldiers to be

I know, only, to quote the Insider:
Since we are talking a science fiction setting here... and since the military is working on them: do the Loroi make use of powered armor or humanoid combat vehicles/robots in their forces?

A few ground-based Loroi army units use armor that's heavy enough to require hydraulic/power assist in the legs to ease movement, but there are no examples of "powered armor" in the sense of Starship Troopers style battlesuits. The Loroi do use combat robots, primarily as self-propelled squad heavy weapons, but I don't see any advantage to these robots being humanoid.


Or to synthesize my question: why is powered armor bad and cybernetics good? Or is it simply more expedient for the Umiak to put brains in jars rather than build armor for them?


Mon Jun 15, 2015 6:39 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
Mr.Tucker wrote:
This question is tied to the one on the Loroi Q&A thread. If Umiak combat cyborgs are expensive to produce and maintain, why are they used at all? Ground combat matters less in this setting. Even then, I'm under the impression that a hardtrooper is no match for a Teidar. If powered armor is not useful, why are cyborgs practical? Just use UGV's and regular grunts.

The critical weakness of powered armor is the living body inside; it's difficult to build an exoskeleton that can ambulate without crushing the limbs and joints of the occupant. However, if you were willing to amputate all the problematic body parts, then a combat cyborg could be made practical. The problem is that many societies, including our own, would blanch at the concept of this sort of self-mutilation. The Umiak are not so squeamish, and moreover, their bodies are already exoskeletal, and so they are a natural fit for this sort of augmentation.

The Umiak use a wide variety of different troop types. As dragoongfa mentioned, most "regular" Umiak are unsuited to ground combat due to their G-intolerance. Some Umiak troops are "soft troops", that is, genetically enhanced Umiak with better G-tolerance and increased strength, but who are strictly light infantry, without major cybernetic alterations or much protection beyond their natural (though artificially strengthened) carapaces which would weigh them down too much.

There are two basic types of hardtroops: the first is a genetically enhanced "soft trooper" with its carapace replaced by a semi-powered armored exoskeleton. The second is a full-on cyborg, retaining the Umiak's organs and nervous system, but with the rest of the body almost entirely replaced with machinery. The first type looks like an armored Umiak, but the second type can look very different.

The Umiak also use some unmanned robotic units, though there is less need for them compared to the Loroi since type-2 hardtroops can carry their own heavy weapons.

Why do the Umiak use hardtroops? Because they're well-armed, well-armored heavy infantry that are pretty dangerous against most opponents. It's true that a hardtrooper is inferior to a Loroi Teidar, but most Loroi troops are not Teidar. Hardtroops are used as security aboard ships as well as on the ground, and they do see action (hint hint).

Final note: these Umiak cyborgs are not "brains in a can." At this tech level, the most effective and economical way to keep a brain alive is to allow it to keep as much as possible of its original body support as possible, and that means most of its organs, including nervous, endocrine, cardiovascular and digestive systems. The technology required to keep a brain alive by itself, synthesizing all the complex chemicals required, and/or being able to repair itself the way a living body would, requires TL14 "nano-buddies" tech that's not yet available to the major combatants.

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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
I see. Thank you for clearing that up :) .


Tue Jun 16, 2015 1:56 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
Onaiom wrote:
About the Pipolsid:

How they manage to develop a technological civilization ? Fire is effectively impossible without specialized resources...

They use some sort of "seacrete" (somewhat resembling shellfish shells) in their construcions ?

I presume that they extract metal supplies from the deep sea, in raw form ?

How they interact with the other races ?

How they get in orbit ? Water is heavier than air. Their ships must be small then ?

They use the Loroi for most of their defense ?


Remember that you don't actually need standard fire. Just take our sea, there's a lot of spare energy around sulfur volcanoes which allows chemotrophic lifeforms. Many which do utilise exothermic reactions.

EDIT

To not clog the human thread.
if Umiak suffer a lot from jump sickness, is there some reason why they don't devote a lot more resources to emergency computer systems which is able to operate the ship very well for at least short amounts of time after a jump?


Mon Jun 29, 2015 5:33 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
Crossing over from the terran miscellaneous thread:

Can a hypothetical Morat and Delrias couple still produce viable offspring despite a less-then-a-million year genetic separation?

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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
I didn't see the edit:
junk wrote:
if Umiak suffer a lot from jump sickness, is there some reason why they don't devote a lot more resources to emergency computer systems which is able to operate the ship very well for at least short amounts of time after a jump?

Umiak ships aren't helpless after jump, but they do operate at reduced effectiveness until the crew has recovered. There is a certain amount that a ship can do autonomously, but logically there must be some limit to how well the ship can operate without a crew; otherwise, crews would be unnecessary and ships would be unmanned.

The most notable shortcomings that a dazed and confused Umiak fleet will experience shortly after jump will be in reduced ability to respond effectively to unplanned events, poorer reaction time in responding to such events, and in reduced effectiveness of crew damage control.

GeoModder wrote:
Can a hypothetical Morat and Delrias couple still produce viable offspring despite a less-then-a-million year genetic separation?

It's possible, but I'm inclined to doubt it. The Fenrias empire split into separate warring nations during their own era, and the regional Fenrias bloodlines had begun to diverge long before the arrival of the Dreiman split the empire in two.

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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
It would make sense were it possible: Tigers, Leopards and Jaguars, and these are more then a million years apart on the evolutionary tree.

There's even lion-jaguar-leopard complex hybrids known as Lijagulep's out there.

Theoretically speaking it should be possible, but whether such offspring is fertile is a different question.


Tue Aug 04, 2015 2:07 pm
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