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Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thread 
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
roeben: those cats mentioned have all had the some slight advantage of similar evolutionary tensions, first being on the same planet, second mostly on the same continent.
evolutionary changes happens due to two reasons first is iterations, the second is evolutionary pressure, one million years is a hell of a lot more iterations for a fruit fly....

the fact that one branch is carnivore, the other is omnivore says that there is some significant difference.


Wed Aug 05, 2015 4:40 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
Or that the evolution pressure on the different planets were high enough....

For example, the giant panda here on Earth is a problematic abnormality: its digestive system is one of carnivorous bears, but it eats only plants (>99%bamboo) [1], despite having lived in bamboo forests for millions of years.
But it is evolving a 6th finger (5 fingers plus a "pseudo thumb", which only this species and the only distantly related red panda has) [2].

Edit: optically, the two races got quite some divergence:
ImageImage

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Thu Aug 06, 2015 11:56 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
I have been wondering what Tech Level the Soias, the Dreiman and the Fenrias were at the height of their power.

From the insider:

http://well-of-souls.com/outsider/tech_level.html

Quote:
0 | Stone Age (prior to 3000 BCE): stone tools, pottery, archery, fire, lever, language, animal husbandry, calendar
1 | Bronze Age (3000-600 BCE): copper and bronze working, wheel, writing, agriculture, masonry, sailing, currency
2 | Iron Age (601 BCE-600 CE): iron working, mathematics, keystone arch, concrete, siege engines
3 | Medieval (601-1450): steel tools, optics (telescope), chemistry
4 | Renaissance/Colonial (1450-1800): gunpowder, printing, global navigation, accurate timekeeping
5 | Industrial Revolution (1801-1900): mass production, steam power, railroad, rifling, electricity, telegraph, photography
6 | World Wars (1901-1950): combustion engine, automobiles, airplanes, rockets, radio, radar, atomic weapons
7 | Information Age (1951-2000): television, jet engine, satellites, guided missiles, nuclear energy, computers, lasers, helicopters
8 | Spacefaring (2001-2100): stealth, ion drive, interplanetary travel, fusion power, cybernetics, railguns, bioengineering, 3D printing
9 | Starfaring: (2100-2150): jump drive, interstellar travel, inertial dampers, artificial gravity, antigrav, longevity, shipstones
10 | Antimatter: (2151-?): antimatter power, blasters, electromagnetic screens, Floater drive
11 | Force: plasma focus, wave-loom device, force screens, tractor beams
12 | Spacetime Mastery: reactionless drive, ansible, hyperspace metrics. virtual consciousness
13 | Worldbuilding: jetpacks, personal force screens, unrestricted manipulation of planetary environment
14 | Dysonian: smart materials, replicators, construction of planets, dyson spheres, ringworlds and so on
15 | Superscience: matter transmission, black hole generators
16+ | A Sufficiently Advanced Technology: as you wish...


The way the insider entry of the precursor empires is put I believe that the Fenrias were Tech Level 9, maybe early Tech Level 10. The Dreiman were at least early 11 and the Soias at least late 12.

What I am more interested in are the Soias, in particular the massive space ships that they lived in could be classified as early tech level 14, self sustainable ship that housed millions if not billions of people. However these ships could also be classified at tech level 13 if they aren't self sufficient in the way Dysonian tech is imagined. They are really hard to build and maintain, demanding resources from multiple star systems in order to do so.

So I am forced to believe that the Soias were tech level 13 since they did maintain a sizeable empire that covered the entire galactic arm, if they were Dysonian resources would not be such an issue and conquest would be done either for its own shake or just for laughs. An other sign of them being tech level 13 are the Soia-Liron life forms and how the Soias tailored them (implying attempts at full manipulation of planetary environments). The problem is that despite all the time the Soias had, few planets seem to have been through an unrestricted manipulation of their environment, Maia could be classified as the chief example of a manipulated planet but the way it was done could be seen as being a patchwork job over a long period of time and done by multiple parties with the Soians adding stuff that best suited their own needs. Furthermore its agrarian function further adds to the argument that the Soians weren't Dysonian.

With everything in mind the Soians seem to be late 12, early 13 in their Tech level with the added niche of super massive spaceships in which they lived in. The question then is why go to such lengths to build and maintain such ships?

1st Theory: The Soians suffered from numerous disastrous wars in which they saw their worlds destroyed numerous times. Deciding that repairing devastated worlds and colonizing new ones proved counter productive due to the nature of their wars they invested heavily in such space ships in order to survive wars that could completely eradicate the surface of a planet. Maintaining these ships could then be relegated to onboard capabilities coupled with raw materials given to them by subjugated species. New such spaceships would be built when needed depending on population needs.

2nd Theory: A way to limit evolutionary drift. Having colonized numerous planets the Soias found themselves with the same problem as the Fenrias, with radical genetic deviations that sparked conflict. After a few such conflict the Soias decided that the best way to limit and even reverse this drift was by introducing a fully controlled habitat for the entirety of their species. Super massive space ships fill that category and coupled with genetic manipulation the genetic deviation could be even reversed.

3rd Theory: A mix of the above two.

So did I answer my own questions or were the precursor empires on different tech levels?

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Wed Aug 12, 2015 1:54 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
Also depending on regional differences, different regions could've been on different tech levels.
Like modern Earth has different tech levels if you look at different countries.
Or even regions within one nation....

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Wed Aug 12, 2015 2:12 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
It is difficult to accurately identify the tech level of a technology more advanced than your own beyond general terms. Medieval TL3 scientists might have a tough time telling whether a handheld radio was from TL6 or TL7. It's also sometimes hard to judge a civilization's overall tech level from individual items. Not every item used by a civilization was at its pinnacle of technology; an iron crowbar from 2015 (TL8) doesn't look much different from one from 1850 (TL5). Retroactively, with the benefit of history and superior science, we can tell the difference between and ancient sword and an industrial one based on chemical characteristics, but that's harder to do peering into the future. So, for the most part, the modern scientists of the Local Bubble can only say with some certainly that a particular civilization had "at least" a certain tech level.

The technology of the Fenrias civilization developed and changed over long stretches of time, starting at TL9 and advancing possibly as far as TL12 in some places before the Dreiman incursion. By that time the Fenrias had splintered into numerous independent empires, with differing culture, technology and even biology.

The Dreiman are estimated to have been at least TL13, based mainly on their feats of planetary engineering, and secondarily on their ability to easily defeat the native Fenrias forces. They seem to have been able to move planets into new orbits and to extensively modify planet surfaces. Surviving Dreiman orbital artifacts use a similar materials science to the later Soia artifacts, though the mechanical designs are distinctly different.

The artifacts from the Soia era are those of planetary settlements, and the artifacts of the Soia-Liron races appear to be at roughly the same level of materials science as those of the native races who were members of the empire, with an level of at least TL12. However, it's not always clear whether these artifacts were the crowbars or smartphones of their civilizations. Some Soia-era artifacts made from relatively straightforward materials had functions that are not fully understood (such as the telepathic amplifiers), and some had functions that can only be guessed at. Also, there appears to have been a higher power that was administrating the empire, as there appears to have been a quarantine of local races in effect during the Soia period, with little or no movement of non-Soia-Liron populations between star systems. According to legend, this regimen was enforced by the Soia proper aboard their spaceborne Dread-stars, but as no remnants of these has ever been found (nor has any direct evidence that they existed at all), one can only speculate as to the tech level of the civilization that made them. Although it seems clear that the Soia shared technology with the burgeoning local civilizations, it seems reasonable to infer that they did not supply them with their best technologies.

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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
Arioch wrote:
Although it seems clear that the Soia shared technology with the burgeoning local civilizations, it seems reasonable to infer that they did not supply them with their best technologies.


This may not have been entirely to keep control. There are frequent examples with aid packages containing equipment the locals have barely been able to use and been utterly unable to maintain. After a few years the new farm tractor are just standing parked collecting dust and rust. Another reason to not give your best tech is economical, send your old obsolete tech to a developing nation so it can be of use rather then scrapped. This also have the benefit of the tech being closer to the locals tech level and as such is easier to maintain. This is where the humanity in the story have the best opportunity to get some upgrades. Do not ask for the latest stuff, ask for that stuff that you would have developed yourself in fifty years.
It is of course possible to retain spikes of high tech level in a low tech level civilization. Your farmers still use ox pulled charts but they got modern cellphones. As long as the technicians needed to maintain the infrastructure know what they are doing it works well enough. If nothing else, purchase your new stuff with a education and maintenance package deal. humanity could ask for some teachers and maintenence crew to work on earth for a while. The user does not need to know how the phone works as long as they can use them, seriously do you understand the inner workings of your car or the computer you are using to read this? You may but you do not need to. Still I doubt that you believe that magic is involved. Just because aliens delivers stuff to your doorstep you do not need to develop a cargo cult thou you may, it is optional.


Wed Aug 12, 2015 10:18 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
Sweforce wrote:
This may not have been entirely to keep control. There are frequent examples with aid packages containing equipment the locals have barely been able to use and been utterly unable to maintain. After a few years the new farm tractor are just standing parked collecting dust and rust. Another reason to not give your best tech is economical, send your old obsolete tech to a developing nation so it can be of use rather then scrapped. This also have the benefit of the tech being closer to the locals tech level and as such is easier to maintain.

This is a very good point, but surely the ultra-advanced Soia would have realized this, just as the Historians realized that giving their best technology to the Loroi would have been useless, as the Loroi could barely reproduce the dumbed-down version of the TL11 plasma focus that they were supplied.

But that was a case of a technology boost that occurred over the span of a decade. Consider the timescale of the Soia control of the local bubble; if it had been the intent of the Soia to raise the local races to their own level, they had more than two hundred thousand years to accomplish it. And consider also that the surface-dwelling Soia-Liron races had the same apparently limited level of technology as the non-Soia local races.

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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
Interesting that the Dreiman were of a similar material science level to the known soia artefacts. The wording in the Insider makes it seem that the Soia batted aside the Dreiman similar to what the Dreiman themselves had done to the Fenrias. Must not have been quite as clear cut. Then again the border between the Dreiman and soia eras is somewhat fluid in different regions. Will we ever find out what happened during these eras? (is that significant in any way to the story?)


Thu Aug 13, 2015 3:04 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
Mr.Tucker wrote:
Interesting that the Dreiman were of a similar material science level to the known soia artefacts. The wording in the Insider makes it seem that the Soia batted aside the Dreiman similar to what the Dreiman themselves had done to the Fenrias. Must not have been quite as clear cut. Then again the border between the Dreiman and soia eras is somewhat fluid in different regions. Will we ever find out what happened during these eras? (is that significant in any way to the story?)


Actually the Dremian replaced the Fenrias violently then the Soia replaced the Deremian in what appears to be a largely non violent takeover. It is possible that the Dremian had lost the territory to the Soia in a treaty and then moved out on their own accord. Perhaps due to losing a war in another region like what happened here on earth after WWI where losing colonial powers had to hand over their colonies to the victorious ones.


Thu Aug 13, 2015 9:49 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
Mr.Tucker wrote:
Will we ever find out what happened during these eras? (is that significant in any way to the story?)

Some.

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Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
Arioch do you have the Barsam religion flushed out enough to tell us what it is? I am curious about it.


Mon Aug 31, 2015 6:15 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
Grayhome wrote:
Arioch do you have the Barsam religion flushed out enough to tell us what it is? I am curious about it.


If so, is it unified or is it split up on several variants that hate each other and throw blasphemer and infidel accusations around? Are there militant variants? Are there those that only use it as a source of philosophy and actually ignore the religious part? And how popular is it, in any variant among non barsam? Is it open for non Soia-Liroin species and if so do template species have special place in the faith?


Mon Aug 31, 2015 7:33 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
At the core of the Barsam religion is an ancient creation myth that dates back to Barsam prehistory. It goes something like this: the world is eternal, but is one of many managed by an order of angelic beings of light known as the "Gatherers" who dwell in some otherworldly plane of existence that is roughly analogous to Heaven, connected to our world via a radiant portal called the Well of Souls. Over time, the world became corrupted, its peoples living in squalor and strife, and so to remedy this the Gatherers (who could not speak with or physically interact with mortal creatures) created mortal servants, in the idealized image of the native people, to remedy these ills and bring the message of truth: that all beings are brothers, and part of the same holy web of consciousness. To this end, the mortal servants of the Gatherers were armed with great powers, and peace and order were restored to the world. However, it seems that Gatherers' servants were too accurate a reproduction, retaining the flaws of the original peoples. As the ages passed, some of the servants abused the power they had been given for mortal gain, and at length the world was again plunged into war and chaos. Dismayed, the Gatherers withdrew to heaven and closed the portal, cutting off the means by which the spirits of mortals could reach ascension.

Though most of the early Barsam believed some version of this tale, they (not unlike the Loroi) were a warrior culture that was locked in an endless cycle of violence, stagnated in a late medieval technological era. Then a rebirth occurred, driven by the spread of a new form of this religion, led by the prophet Onzir Eutuno. The prophet taught that though the gate to heaven was closed and the connection to the Gatherers broken, it could be restored by embracing the Gatherers' principles of peace and brotherhood and living by reason and love instead of anger and hatred. This new faith swept across Justa, spread by its wandering troubador-clerics (sometimes peacefully, sometimes not so peacefully), and became dominant in almost every Barsam culture. In subsequent generations it became codified as a formal church.

Modern church scholars have expanded the core myth to a galactic scale, identifying the Gatherers with the Soia, and their servants with the Soia-Liron and Dreiman.

Sweforce wrote:
If so, is it unified or is it split up on several variants that hate each other and throw blasphemer and infidel accusations around? Are there militant variants? Are there those that only use it as a source of philosophy and actually ignore the religious part? And how popular is it, in any variant among non barsam? Is it open for non Soia-Liroin species and if so do template species have special place in the faith?

The Barsam church is centralized and state-sanctioned, similar to Catholicism before the Reformation. Any orthodoxy will have apostates, and so there are divergent sects, schools of thought and differences of opinion on interpretation, but in the modern era these differences are handled in a political rather than violent manner (for the most part). Some Barsam take the religion literally and some take it figuratively, but with the discovery of the other Soia-Liron races and the Nibiren, the advance of discovery has made the religion seem more literal rather than less.

The prime tenet of the religion is that all beings are brothers, and so any and all species are welcome. Barsam missionaries are active on many alien worlds, with varying degrees of success. The issue of the Soia-Liron peoples being placed on a higher status than "normal" peoples is a potential stumbling block with non-Soia-Liron races; some Barsam schools of thought emphasize this as legitimizing their role as teachers, while others point out that it was the Soia-Liron servants who destroyed the Gatherers' order, and thus are no better than anyone else.

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Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
Eek, between the Barsam and the Loroi with friends like these who needs enemies.


Tue Sep 01, 2015 12:08 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
Grayhome wrote:
Eek, between the Barsam and the Loroi with friends like these who needs enemies.

I don't follow; what's your objection to the Barsam? They're practically the very definition of "white hat."

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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
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I don't follow; what's your objection to the Barsam? They're practically the very definition of "white hat."


How is the Barsam religion or any religion that preaches that one people are superior and other people inferior, anything even remotely resembling white hat?

I do not see how anyone can claim that a religion that preaches that it's people are superior creations of inferior races can be moral. At best it's patronizing at worst, supremacist.


Tue Sep 01, 2015 4:55 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
I don't get that picture from what Arioch is describing.

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Tue Sep 01, 2015 5:15 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
My thought process when reading through Arioch's description was:

Quote:
Over time, the world became corrupted, its peoples living in squalor and strife, and so to remedy this the Gatherers (who could not speak with or physically interact with mortal creatures) created mortal servants, in the idealized image of the native people, to remedy these ills and bring the message of truth: that all beings are brothers, and part of the same holy web of consciousness.

Original species and their civilizations are inherently corrupt and inferior. True civilization and morality stems from gods, others are false civilizations. Those without the true gods cannot be moral. The Barsam were most likely lab-grown shock troops with slight regenerative abilities to make them cheaper to mass produce and deploy. The Barsam gods remind me of the Ori from Stargate: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ori_%28Stargate%29


Quote:
To this end, the mortal servants of the Gatherers were armed with great powers, and peace and order were restored to the world.

Superior races were created to shepherd the inferior species, by force if necessary. Superior races are superior because they were chosen by the divine. Other species are inherently inferior, they were not chosen by the divine and they are, by extension held to a lower degree of respect due to their lowly origins.


Quote:
However, it seems that Gatherers' servants were too accurate a reproduction, retaining the flaws of the original peoples.

The only reason the superior species failed was due of their connection with inferior species.


Quote:
The issue of the Soia-Liron peoples being placed on a higher status than "normal" peoples is a potential stumbling block with non-Soia-Liron races;

Yes, many religions on Earth have that problem with other factions they claim are inherently inferior and/or hell bound.


Quote:
some Barsam schools of thought emphasize this as legitimizing their role as teachers

Inferior species are inferior. Require chosen people to lead them into prosperity, cannot do it themselves.


It's not that I think that the Barsam are objectionable, they make for very interesting characters and by extension an interesting species. However i cannot bring myself to call them morale or even semi-morale. At best they're just being conned.


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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
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...At best they're just being conned.


The willing slave is the best slave.

Other than that I think that you omit a few crucial details, the most important of which is the fact that the Barsam themselves disagree on this.

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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
Grayhome wrote:
I do not see how anyone can claim that a religion that preaches that it's people are superior creations of inferior races can be moral. At best it's patronizing at worst, supremacist.

You have a curious knack for looking at a set of assertions and extracting the most negative possible interpretation. You've complained before that these descriptions depress you, but you seem to be working awfully hard at finding the darkest way of reading them.

One of the myths of the Christian religion is that humans were created in the image of God. If we ever meet aliens, does this mean that all Christians must be denounced as racists or xenophobes? These myths are thousands of years old, formed at a time when people never dreamed of meeting aliens; Christian scholars can't simply change the text of the Bible because they think it's no longer politically correct. As an atheist I can't say I'm a fan of religion in general, but the idea of condemning an entire culture because their ancient myths say that they're special seems short-sighted. Everyone's ancient myths say they're special. Every religion thinks they're the chosen ones. By your logic, all human cultures are inherently immoral. For myself, I think it's better to judge people by what they actually do.

The Barsam religion teaches first and foremost that all beings are brothers. They are devoted to peace, stand loyally by their allies (who they don't actually like very much) in time of great need, and devote much time and resources to aiding the less-fortunate of other species (notably the primitive Nibiren). Are these altruistic qualities negated because the Barsam are motivated by piety?

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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
Quote:
You have a curious knack for looking at a set of assertions and extracting the most negative possible interpretation. You've complained before that these descriptions depress you, but you seem to be working awfully hard at finding the darkest way of reading them.

Guilty as charged.


Quote:
One of the myths of the Christian religion is that humans were created in the image of God. If we ever meet aliens, does this mean that all Christians must be denounced as racists or xenophobes?

I don’t see why we would have to wait to meet aliens for that, the Christian (so-called) ethic system is already being analyzed as inherently racist and xenophobic towards other humans. There are only so many interpretations of “those who don’t follow my religion are going to hell”.


Quote:
These myths are thousands of years old, formed at a time when people never dreamed of meeting aliens; Christian scholars can't simply change the text of the Bible because they think it's no longer politically correct.

Arioch, Christian scholars have been doing nothing except changing the text of the bible since it first came into existence. They’ve been doing it for centuries, I would argue that the last century has been one of the most… morphed of them all in terms of biblical interpretation by Christian scholars. Women and African Americans are no longer seen as inferior in the eyes of the church (mostly) and the LBGT community is beginning to receive a grudging level of tolerance. The tolerance of those three groups requires massive reinterpretation, if not flat out deletion, of biblical texts which have been used for centuries to discriminate ( i.e. torture, murder) against them.

Quote:
As an atheist I can't say I'm a fan of religion in general, but the idea of condemning an entire culture because their ancient myths say that they're special seems short-sighted. Everyone's ancient myths say they're special. Every religion thinks they're the chosen ones. By your logic, all human cultures are inherently immoral. For myself, I think it's better to judge people by what they actually do.

That is a fair point, I have only a small amount of data on the Barsam to form an analysis with. Can I condemn them for aiding the Loroi, who are mind rapists, xenocidal, and all around mentally unstable? I can guess the aid that the Barsam gives the Loroi is mostly due to telepathic manipulations and that will be a significant plot point in the future, but still.


Quote:
The Barsam religion teaches first and foremost that all beings are brothers. They are devoted to peace, stand loyally by their allies (who they don't actually like very much) in time of great need, and devote much time and resources to aiding the less-fortunate of other species (notably the primitive Nibiren). Are these altruistic qualities negated because the Barsam are motivated by piety?

The next few lines is not meant as insulting or disrespectful to anyone, this is merely my opinion after a lifetime of studying the topics of world politics, human history, and religions.

I don’t have a very high opinion of nations who stand with their allies when they know their allies are perpetrating actions they consider immoral. I’m sorry Arioch, but I just don’t. I do have a high opinion of nations who stand up to their allies when they know they are performing immoral actions. As an example, if more friendly and neutral nations had stood against the United States decision to declare war on and invade Iraq, ISIS would not have formed and the current worldwide economic recession wouldn’t have occurred.

They could have at the very least protested louder when it became widely known how extensive the United States used torture, damn.

My viewpoint on religious factions aiding the less fortunate is very negative, a view which is sadly based upon investigative journalism and personal experience. It gives me no pleasure to say this but taking food to starving people, waving it underneath their noses and saying “convert or we won’t feed you” has never struck me as a morale act. Neither has taking medicine to the parents of sick children and saying “convert or watch your children die.” Mother Teresa is an excellent example of this sort of behavior, which I'm sad to say is very typical of how religious factions interact with the less fortunate. I do not see it as aiding the less fortunate, but as preying upon the most vulnerable to proselytize their religion. The above examples are unfortunately, almost ubiquitous throughout the religious community in real life and that’s not even getting to the folks who say “Aids may be bad, but not as bad as condoms” or those who try to write their religious dogma into law. These actions cause more disease, more famine, more war, more chaos, all of it preventable.

I’m not saying that the Barsam do this, we don’t have that information yet. But I will say that it would be highly irregular, and a bit naïve, to make the Barsam not conform to that mold at least in some regard.


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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
I still think that you are too negative.

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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
Grayhome wrote:
I’m not saying that the Barsam do this, we don’t have that information yet. But I will say that it would be highly irregular, and a bit naïve, to make the Barsam not conform to that mold at least in some regard.


On the one hand, I think I can say that I do agree with you on your views on religion; suffice it to say, I don't see it as any sort of "good" thing. On the other, I think the issue here is that you're attributing human senses of morality and ethics to the Barsam. But, the Barsam aren't human. When they preach that "all creatures are brothers," they may very well be genuine about that ideal.

Just because it's human nature to wave the carrot while still threatening with the stick, you really can't just assume that's how all sapient life operates. Such a thing would be highly irregular for humans (you are correct, history holds that out), but we're the only example we currently have. Alien brains can produce alien thoughts; maybe a Barsam can say what they mean and mean what they say.

So, no need to leap right to the most negative conclusion. Maybe just take a few steps towards the darker gray, instead. At least until Arioch tells us about the Barsam Crusades :P (I kid, I kid).


Wed Sep 02, 2015 12:52 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
greyhome: Considering that the organization isis 'came from' was formed in 1999, that is four years before the first iraq war, and considering that the first incarnation was still called 'The Organisation of Monotheism and Jihad' the basic tenant that there should be only one religion and that is islam by jihad(holy war) seems pretty clear to me to have been there all along.

And if your little buddy(the wealthy little bugger you can depend on to give you lunch money) is attacked by some bully, do you intervene?
A rather simplistic view of the first Iraq war, but pretty accurate really.

Do note, I pretty much agree that religion as a whole is a pretty bad idea, but 'we are all brothers and we should help our brothers.' is about as good as it gets, it will still fuck up and probably create more problems as compared to solved such, but it IS about as good as it gets.


Wed Sep 02, 2015 2:34 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
Quote:
greyhome: Considering that the organization isis 'came from' was formed in 1999, that is four years before the first iraq war, and considering that the first incarnation was still called 'The Organisation of Monotheism and Jihad' the basic tenant that there should be only one religion and that is islam by jihad(holy war) seems pretty clear to me to have been there all along.


So you are saying that ISIS would have risen to it's current level of power in Iraq even if the United States hadn't invaded, destroyed the nation's infrastructure, and caused all that mess? Discord please, be reasonable here.

Quote:
And if your little buddy(the wealthy little bugger you can depend on to give you lunch money) is attacked by some bully, do you intervene?
A rather simplistic view of the first Iraq war, but pretty accurate really.


I'm sorry but I do not understand what you are saying here. I was referring to the latest United States led war in Iraq, which has been an unparalleled disaster and will go down in history as the one of the worst military blunders in the history of the United States.


Wed Sep 02, 2015 5:13 am
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