Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 1:15 pm
Arioch do you have the Barsam religion flushed out enough to tell us what it is? I am curious about it.
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https://www.well-of-souls.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=884
If so, is it unified or is it split up on several variants that hate each other and throw blasphemer and infidel accusations around? Are there militant variants? Are there those that only use it as a source of philosophy and actually ignore the religious part? And how popular is it, in any variant among non barsam? Is it open for non Soia-Liroin species and if so do template species have special place in the faith?Grayhome wrote:Arioch do you have the Barsam religion flushed out enough to tell us what it is? I am curious about it.
The Barsam church is centralized and state-sanctioned, similar to Catholicism before the Reformation. Any orthodoxy will have apostates, and so there are divergent sects, schools of thought and differences of opinion on interpretation, but in the modern era these differences are handled in a political rather than violent manner (for the most part). Some Barsam take the religion literally and some take it figuratively, but with the discovery of the other Soia-Liron races and the Nibiren, the advance of discovery has made the religion seem more literal rather than less.Sweforce wrote:If so, is it unified or is it split up on several variants that hate each other and throw blasphemer and infidel accusations around? Are there militant variants? Are there those that only use it as a source of philosophy and actually ignore the religious part? And how popular is it, in any variant among non barsam? Is it open for non Soia-Liroin species and if so do template species have special place in the faith?
I don't follow; what's your objection to the Barsam? They're practically the very definition of "white hat."Grayhome wrote:Eek, between the Barsam and the Loroi with friends like these who needs enemies.
How is the Barsam religion or any religion that preaches that one people are superior and other people inferior, anything even remotely resembling white hat?I don't follow; what's your objection to the Barsam? They're practically the very definition of "white hat."
Original species and their civilizations are inherently corrupt and inferior. True civilization and morality stems from gods, others are false civilizations. Those without the true gods cannot be moral. The Barsam were most likely lab-grown shock troops with slight regenerative abilities to make them cheaper to mass produce and deploy. The Barsam gods remind me of the Ori from Stargate: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ori_%28Stargate%29Over time, the world became corrupted, its peoples living in squalor and strife, and so to remedy this the Gatherers (who could not speak with or physically interact with mortal creatures) created mortal servants, in the idealized image of the native people, to remedy these ills and bring the message of truth: that all beings are brothers, and part of the same holy web of consciousness.
Superior races were created to shepherd the inferior species, by force if necessary. Superior races are superior because they were chosen by the divine. Other species are inherently inferior, they were not chosen by the divine and they are, by extension held to a lower degree of respect due to their lowly origins.To this end, the mortal servants of the Gatherers were armed with great powers, and peace and order were restored to the world.
The only reason the superior species failed was due of their connection with inferior species.However, it seems that Gatherers' servants were too accurate a reproduction, retaining the flaws of the original peoples.
Yes, many religions on Earth have that problem with other factions they claim are inherently inferior and/or hell bound.The issue of the Soia-Liron peoples being placed on a higher status than "normal" peoples is a potential stumbling block with non-Soia-Liron races;
Inferior species are inferior. Require chosen people to lead them into prosperity, cannot do it themselves.some Barsam schools of thought emphasize this as legitimizing their role as teachers
The willing slave is the best slave....At best they're just being conned.
You have a curious knack for looking at a set of assertions and extracting the most negative possible interpretation. You've complained before that these descriptions depress you, but you seem to be working awfully hard at finding the darkest way of reading them.Grayhome wrote:I do not see how anyone can claim that a religion that preaches that it's people are superior creations of inferior races can be moral. At best it's patronizing at worst, supremacist.
Guilty as charged.You have a curious knack for looking at a set of assertions and extracting the most negative possible interpretation. You've complained before that these descriptions depress you, but you seem to be working awfully hard at finding the darkest way of reading them.
I don’t see why we would have to wait to meet aliens for that, the Christian (so-called) ethic system is already being analyzed as inherently racist and xenophobic towards other humans. There are only so many interpretations of “those who don’t follow my religion are going to hell”.One of the myths of the Christian religion is that humans were created in the image of God. If we ever meet aliens, does this mean that all Christians must be denounced as racists or xenophobes?
Arioch, Christian scholars have been doing nothing except changing the text of the bible since it first came into existence. They’ve been doing it for centuries, I would argue that the last century has been one of the most… morphed of them all in terms of biblical interpretation by Christian scholars. Women and African Americans are no longer seen as inferior in the eyes of the church (mostly) and the LBGT community is beginning to receive a grudging level of tolerance. The tolerance of those three groups requires massive reinterpretation, if not flat out deletion, of biblical texts which have been used for centuries to discriminate ( i.e. torture, murder) against them.These myths are thousands of years old, formed at a time when people never dreamed of meeting aliens; Christian scholars can't simply change the text of the Bible because they think it's no longer politically correct.
That is a fair point, I have only a small amount of data on the Barsam to form an analysis with. Can I condemn them for aiding the Loroi, who are mind rapists, xenocidal, and all around mentally unstable? I can guess the aid that the Barsam gives the Loroi is mostly due to telepathic manipulations and that will be a significant plot point in the future, but still.As an atheist I can't say I'm a fan of religion in general, but the idea of condemning an entire culture because their ancient myths say that they're special seems short-sighted. Everyone's ancient myths say they're special. Every religion thinks they're the chosen ones. By your logic, all human cultures are inherently immoral. For myself, I think it's better to judge people by what they actually do.
The next few lines is not meant as insulting or disrespectful to anyone, this is merely my opinion after a lifetime of studying the topics of world politics, human history, and religions.The Barsam religion teaches first and foremost that all beings are brothers. They are devoted to peace, stand loyally by their allies (who they don't actually like very much) in time of great need, and devote much time and resources to aiding the less-fortunate of other species (notably the primitive Nibiren). Are these altruistic qualities negated because the Barsam are motivated by piety?
On the one hand, I think I can say that I do agree with you on your views on religion; suffice it to say, I don't see it as any sort of "good" thing. On the other, I think the issue here is that you're attributing human senses of morality and ethics to the Barsam. But, the Barsam aren't human. When they preach that "all creatures are brothers," they may very well be genuine about that ideal.Grayhome wrote: I’m not saying that the Barsam do this, we don’t have that information yet. But I will say that it would be highly irregular, and a bit naïve, to make the Barsam not conform to that mold at least in some regard.
So you are saying that ISIS would have risen to it's current level of power in Iraq even if the United States hadn't invaded, destroyed the nation's infrastructure, and caused all that mess? Discord please, be reasonable here.greyhome: Considering that the organization isis 'came from' was formed in 1999, that is four years before the first iraq war, and considering that the first incarnation was still called 'The Organisation of Monotheism and Jihad' the basic tenant that there should be only one religion and that is islam by jihad(holy war) seems pretty clear to me to have been there all along.
I'm sorry but I do not understand what you are saying here. I was referring to the latest United States led war in Iraq, which has been an unparalleled disaster and will go down in history as the one of the worst military blunders in the history of the United States.And if your little buddy(the wealthy little bugger you can depend on to give you lunch money) is attacked by some bully, do you intervene?
A rather simplistic view of the first Iraq war, but pretty accurate really.
Dragoongfa the comic tells a story of genocide, the enslavement of species, planetary bombardments, mind rape, casual murder of civilians on a massive scale, and that's just the opening act. It's hard for me to see that in a positive light.I still think that you are too negative.
I just think that you let the dark parts of the setting unduly color the brighter ones. Remember that the Barsam 'sacrificed' their independence so they could be a voice of pacifism in the Loroi Union and somehow limit the damage of the hamfisted actions of the Loroi. From my point of view they are a noble society who practice what they preach.Grayhome wrote:Dragoongfa the comic tells a story of genocide, the enslavement of species, planetary bombardments, mind rape, casual murder of civilians on a massive scale, and that's just the opening act. It's hard for me to see that in a positive light.I still think that you are too negative.
It's a GREAT story and I love Outsider, but this universe is pretty grimdark, with touches of nobledark here and there.
And from my point of view the Barsam were obviously telepathically manipulated by the Loroi into convincing other races to give up their sovereignty and resources to the Loroi and disband their collective military. I think we already have more than enough evidence to accuse the Loroi of such telepathic foul play given our knowledge of the Golim and seeing firsthand what the first Loroi did to the first Human she met in the first second of meeting him.Remember that the Barsam 'sacrificed' their independence so they could be a voice of pacifism in the Loroi Union and somehow limit the damage of the hamfisted actions of the Loroi. From my point of view they are a noble society who practice what they preach.