[Fan Fiction] Looking forward to the Mirror (Completed)

[Whale]

The stuff about speech seems off, since stuttering when trying to talk into a radio can cost lives and I doubt civvies handle all long-distance communication by text....

[dragoongfa]

The stuff about speech seems off, since stuttering when trying to talk into a radio can cost lives and I doubt civvies handle all long-distance communication by text....

I would agree but that's what Arioch said somewhere in the miscellaneous Loroi thread (or the insider, not 100% sure). I doubt that civvies handle much long distance comms since the vast majority of the government is handled by warrior castes; a small minority of civilians would certainly be very fluent with speech since they would have to come in contact with aliens and Loroi warriors but I used the rule of thumb approach since the discussion just touches the subject.

In the case of Doranzer Needle however, it's both being uncomfortable with speech and the fact that the patient is a male. Her reasons will be covered in one of the next Loroi POVs one way or the other. To be honest I was originally ambivalent about the particular segment but I wanted to touch the Loroi aversion to speech a little.

[Logannion]

Great update!

I guess that's why no one in the comics have any scars at all. Despite being part of one of the most elite squadrons in the Loroi fleet.

I wonder why their encyclopedia/database is so disorganised. Is it because they are rendered redundant by their memory and telepathic capability? Guess that just underlines the huge disconnect the Loroi have with non-telepathic races in general. Perhaps that is where Humaniti can step in, as diplomats/intermediary between the Loroi and other races. In the future that is.

Looking forward to seeing a Loroi civilian POV.

[Mr Bojangles]

An enjoyable update. But, I have to ask, dragoongfa, is the "unseemly" medic sketchy-looking or is there actually an unattractive Loroi in your story?

I'm not sure if it was in the fora or the Insider, but Loroi warriors need to use speech for battlefield communication, e.g., ship-to-ship. Trying to send over the distances ships in formation maintain would probably annoy the hell out of any other Loroi on your ship. Like dragoongfa, I imagine civilians don't have as much need for long-distance communication.

And I'm curious about the lack of organization in the Loroi's data, too. I'm also curious as to why Matveyev's computers can't automatically derive some sort of context and apply organization to the data. I know Outsider humanity isn't real humanity, but that's fairly basic stuff nowadays... Sorry, my inner AI nerd came out.

[JQBogus]

I am pretty sure the 'unseemly' part was the medic's appearance of extreme youth... too young to have learned enough to be an actual doctor, by human appearances. Humans in the story don't know about Loroi longevity or lack of apparent aging yet, I think.

[dragoongfa]

Great update!

I guess that's why no one in the comics have any scars at all. Despite being part of one of the most elite squadrons in the Loroi fleet.

Thanks, it's also why Alex doesn't have any scar tissue left when he had some when we saw him just outside of such a medical device. Maybe in canon the device is indeed just a medical scanner but as it was mentioned it is just too big for that. It would make perfect sense however if it was both a scanner and a regenerative machine.

I wonder why their encyclopedia/database is so disorganised. Is it because they are rendered redundant by their memory and telepathic capability? Guess that just underlines the huge disconnect the Loroi have with non-telepathic races in general. Perhaps that is where Humaniti can step in, as diplomats/intermediary between the Loroi and other races. In the future that is.

That's more or less it, when you have Listels/other Eidetics that can transfer everything and answer questions from a distance then archiving complex information takes the very last back seat and would probably be seen as a punishment itself. That would also bring forth quite the problematic archiving practices since Lorois would rarely if at all need access to such information, as such the archiver would see no reason to improve the archive for proper access and dissemination, making it very hard to read and understand. Whoever had to wade through the archive of someone who didn't give a fuck about it will understand. Of course the aliens who had to have access to such archives would see it as either a veiled insult or an attempt to hide information.

Looking forward to seeing a Loroi civilian POV.

Who knows if Calmwater gets an other POV However as a farseer she should know how to speak in order to interact with warriors over long distances.

I am pretty sure the 'unseemly' part was the medic's appearance of extreme youth... too young to have learned enough to be an actual doctor, by human appearances. Humans in the story don't know about Loroi longevity or lack of apparent aging yet, I think.

Needle is average looking but is very young even by Loroi standards being 9 years old, she was assigned to an older Doranzer for a milk run evaluation that didn't end up being such a milk run. The doctor saw mainly her youthful appearance, human doctors study for 6 years to get their first degree in medicine and then some more for their specialization. In fact most human doctors have studied medicine for more time than Needle has been alive; which speaks volumes for the efficiency of telepathic teaching methods.

And I'm curious about the lack of organization in the Loroi's data, too. I'm also curious as to why Matveyev's computers can't automatically derive some sort of context and apply organization to the data. I know Outsider humanity isn't real humanity, but that's fairly basic stuff nowadays... Sorry, my inner AI nerd came out.

Loroi aren't the best archivists as I already mentioned. Matveyev's computers would have done so if the data didn't have plenty of unknown words (archaic Trade words), the doctor doesn't know this but the code monkeys will realize this almost immediately and ask the Loroi for a lexicon. In contrast the Loroi computers didn't have trouble accessing the data even if they were organized in an unfamiliar but highly intuitive format that the Loroi computers failed to fully implement; the concept will be expanded later.

[Twinkee]

So the only Loroi who talk are merchants, diplomats and politicians... no wonder the Loroi consider all speech as a means of deception

[Logannion]

So the only Loroi who talk are merchants, diplomats and politicians... no wonder the Loroi consider all speech as a means of deception

Wow, that really does put things into perspective.

Plus, the Loroi don't have lawyers due to the telepathy. So the people who talk really are the weasels of the society.

That's more or less it, when you have Listels/other Eidetics that can transfer everything and answer questions from a distance then archiving complex information takes the very last back seat and would probably be seen as a punishment itself. That would also bring forth quite the problematic archiving practices since Lorois would rarely if at all need access to such information, as such the archiver would see no reason to improve the archive for proper access and dissemination, making it very hard to read and understand... Of course the aliens who had to have access to such archives would see it as either a veiled insult or an attempt to hide information.

Loroi aren't the best archivists as I already mentioned. Matveyev's computers would have done so if the data didn't have plenty of unknown words (archaic Trade words), the doctor doesn't know this but the code monkeys will realize this almost immediately and ask the Loroi for a lexicon. In contrast the Loroi computers didn't have trouble accessing the data even if they were organized in an unfamiliar but highly intuitive format that the Loroi computers failed to fully implement; the concept will be expanded later.

I wonder why none of the other Union members haven't made a more user friendly database. The Insider archives stated that the Neridi and the Pilsopids have been assimilated into loroi culture and fulfil functions similar to Humanity's civilian society. You'd think that over the centuries, some of them would have complained to the loroi about it.

[dragoongfa]

Loroi chauvinism coupled with minor profiteering by the species who are able to straighten things up. Why correct the chauvinist telepathic warriors when you can have a niche market where you can help aliens understand your telepathic overlords? For a price of course.

I suspect that's where the Neridi come in, since the aquatic Pipolsid would have trouble coming in contact with mouth breathers.

[Mr Bojangles]

Loroi aren't the best archivists as I already mentioned. Matveyev's computers would have done so if the data didn't have plenty of unknown words (archaic Trade words), the doctor doesn't know this but the code monkeys will realize this almost immediately and ask the Loroi for a lexicon. In contrast the Loroi computers didn't have trouble accessing the data even if they were organized in an unfamiliar but highly intuitive format that the Loroi computers failed to fully implement; the concept will be expanded later.

I'm glad to hear you'll be touching upon this in-story. In a past life, I did research into natural language processing and context derivation, so this chapter ended up becoming a thought experiment for me. After typing my initial message, it hit me that even if the Loroi data didn't have an unusual format/layout, it was still a medical text and thus would contain tons of technical terms and Loroi-specific biological terms. In general, automatically deriving meaning and context for unknown nouns and technical terms isn't possible; you must be told their definitions.

Then you mentioned that the Matveyev's devs will ask for a lexicon and all was good! All I can say is keep being thought-provoking, dragoongfa.

[Zakharra]

One thing that should be considered is that to the Loroi, Neridi, Barsoom and the Historians, that way of data structure in archives might make sense, to them. To us it clearly doesn't. But then we developed completely independently of anyone and have an entirely different viewpoint because of it. What we find as reasonable and makes sense to us doesn't mean it is actually the best way to do something. It's just different. I am sure there are some things the Loroi do will be better than humanity. Not just technology, but the method of how it is done; culturally. And computers aren't necessarily going to be able to 'talk' to each other easily. There will be programming differences that make systems harder to talk to each other. It's a good thing that the downloads they exchanged were accepted, although I give that to the humans for being somewhat prepared if they used the Orgus programming as a stable platform (and knowledge of the Trade language and system). If it had been purely an unaltered human download, it very well might have been garbage as far as the Loroi computers ability to read it.

[NuclearIceCream]

One thing that should be considered is that to the Loroi, Neridi, Barsoom and the Historians, that way of data structure in archives might make sense, to them. To us it clearly doesn't. But then we developed completely independently of anyone and have an entirely different viewpoint because of it. What we find as reasonable and makes sense to us doesn't mean it is actually the best way to do something. It's just different.

The ability of the Loroi going over the data and immediately figuring out how to navigate it and then determining a hypothesis for why we are not psychic, and the innability for the humans to even sort through it even for a cursory look would imply that the humans in the story have a much more user friendly system, even for beginners. I am of the opinion that when it comes to UI, user friendliness is indicative of quality.

[Zakharra]

One thing that should be considered is that to the Loroi, Neridi, Barsoom and the Historians, that way of data structure in archives might make sense, to them. To us it clearly doesn't. But then we developed completely independently of anyone and have an entirely different viewpoint because of it. What we find as reasonable and makes sense to us doesn't mean it is actually the best way to do something. It's just different.

The ability of the Loroi going over the data and immediately figuring out how to navigate it and then determining a hypothesis for why we are not psychic, and the innability for the humans to even sort through it even for a cursory look would imply that the humans in the story have a much more user friendly system, even for beginners. I am of the opinion that when it comes to UI, user friendliness is indicative of quality.

If I remember right, there was a bit of incompatibility in how the data was organized: 'However it took some time for the computer to access the data; looking into it after the computer finished accessing it she realized that this happened because it wasn’t a standard template but a different one; optimized and organized to work with a keyword search function instead of the standard breakdown between different subjects. The computer had trouble presenting it the way it was compiled so it compensated by introducing a crude search function. ' They don't appear to use a key search function, but have everything broken down into different subjects. To the Loroi, it seems that their date retrieval is suitable enough to them. Ours as humans is obviously different. Not necessarily better, but different. Theirs is just as effective for them.

That said, I'm not saying there isn't room to improve things, but overall the Loroi way looks to be fairly good and reasonable. It seems the biggest challenge for getting the information is to get the Listel(?) and other tech castes to put the information in a digital format in the first place.

[dragoongfa]

Well I had to do a rewrite already (not for this subject) and since this ain't a spoiler I will explain what I had in mind.

So Author's random rambling: Human Computer Sciences.

The way I envisioned it and implemented it is a little straight forward and somewhat underwhelming.

Imagine the Loroi data like a printed encyclopedia, look into the table of contents, find the subject you want to find and then open the relevant data. Simple and straight forward enough to write down and easy enough to understand. However the Loroi don't read that data at all since they are telepaths and as such the ones who wrote it took the easy way out by dumping whatever text was handy and sufficient without rewriting it for ease of reading comprehension. Then add the fact that Loroi Trade is a little more complicated than the Historian Trade that the humans know. Plenty of archaic unknown words and Loroi specific terms that the Historian Lexicon the Orgus gave to the Humans doesn't cover.

So in essence you have a system that the Humans consider straightforward but obsolete since the early 21st century, text that doesn't take into account ease of comprehension and unknown Loroi Trade words.

The human system is the evolution of the wikipedia format (hell, I named it 'Pedia' both as homage and because 'Pedia' literally translates 'to teach and instruct'), imagine a wikipedia type of encyclopedia but better, straightforward and naturally intuitive. Type the term you want to find and the system will automatically direct you there. The way every entry is written is simple and comprehensible with just a glance, while there are detailed explanations of each and every subject that the reader might be interested in.

To give an example:

If a human had a broken arm and an alien medic wanted to fix it, the medic would just have to type 'broken arm' and would immediately be shown a small list of all type of arm breaks and what the procedures are for each break. How long would this take? Less than a minute to type the key word and identify the correct type of break.

If a Loroi had a broken arm then the alien would have to find the table of contents, wade through it to find the 'injured arm' section, then wade through every possible type of injury the arm may have in order to find the particular type of break. The medic would then have to comprehend what the Loroi wrote before trying to help the patient. How long would that take? Around 10 minutes to find the correct section, another 10 minutes to find the correct injury and then who knows how much time in order to comprehend what the Loroi have written.

Pretty glaring difference if you ask me.

Aliens with advanced computer skills, like the Historians, would be able to have their virtual intelligences to wade through the Loroi stuff with ease and produce a result that is akin to the human one. Aliens that don't have such skills however; let's just say that Loroi avoid alien doctors for a reason but that reason doesn't have to do anything with the skills of the doctors themselves. The Neridi have written alternative encyclopedias for all Loroi related subjects, these encyclopedias are better than the Loroi originals but the Loroi don't trust the work of aliens so they haven't themselves adopted them and the Neridi are content to sell their services to aliens who can't be bothered to do their own research on the matter.

Human computer sciences, although not on the same level as the Historians yet, have evolved to a greater degree than many other species with their biggest limitation being hardware related. Human software is advanced, far more advanced than their tech level implies and they may be very close to get to virtual consciousness which as a technology falls in tech level 12 and not at end of tech level 9 that the humans are. I attribute this to the human capability to innovate and the need for ever evolving suits of software to work with technologies that other species took centuries to fully master but humans have done so in years at the least and decades at the most.

Why have I taken the liberty to give this advantage to the humans?

Well, it's a small advantage story wise for one and the other is that humans got where they are by information sharing and dissemination. The innovation that followed the printing press is best described as mind boggling when compared to before that and it took centuries to master the art of the press before its true strength was realized and how perfect it covered the human need to sate our curiosity. The computer and computer networking is the next milestone and we have yet to master it as a technology; currently we are in its early era of adoption, we are still 'printing bibles' if I am to compare it with the printing press. When we master it as a tech then we will see an new level of mind boggling innovation because that's how human innovation works, by sating the human thirst for information and allowing scientists to expand it.

I think that Arioch followed this approach with the rapid advanced of human tech levels in regards to the background of the Outsider universe. Other species advanced themselves by scavenging the tech of the Soias but humans had nothing but their wits and curiosity and as our muscles grow stronger when we use them so do the tools that enhance our wits and curiosity.

[Zakharra]

Good points. I agree with them.

I think that Arioch followed this approach with the rapid advanced of human tech levels in regards to the background of the Outsider universe. Other species advanced themselves by scavenging the tech of the Soias but humans had nothing but their wits and curiosity and as our muscles grow stronger when we use them so do the tools that enhance our wits and curiosity.

I'd add that we are also more inclined, due to culture and the fact we didn't have any help like the rest of the races did, to look for newer better things. Because we don't have examples of advanced tech, we had to develop our own and did so in ways that other races might not have. We're more geared mentally to do R&D and innovate than the Loroi. Arioch did say that if the contact had happened a few hundred years later, that the humans would be equal in technological level if not superior in some fields.

[Mr Bojangles]

@dragoongfa

I don't think you've taken a liberty with regards to Outsider humanity's CS expertise; not at all. I think you've hit upon a salient point and a question that has popped up pretty often in the forum. And that is "How has humanity almost reached the level of the Loroi so quickly?"

This is the point I made a ways back on this topic: http://www.well-of-souls.com/forums/vie ... 261#p17261, with Arioch's point following immediately after. To paraphrase - it's not that humanity is smarter than everyone else, or that the other species are somehow less inventive, it's that humanity has incentivized rapid scientific and technological progression. And, as you point out, the efficient and quick dissemination of information to as many people as possible is key.

This incentivization is relatively new in human history. You have the right of it by mentioning the printing press. Its invention in the Age of Enlightenment pretty much marks the beginning of the world with which we are familiar. Prior to that, advancement occurred in fits and there was often regression as civilizations fell over the millennia. Outsider supposes it is that model that has remained prevalent amongst the alien cultures of the Local Bubble.

Since information sharing is so important to our progress, it's not surprise at all that our software would be so advanced. Making it easier to share and to consume confers the greatest benefit. You're spot on with regards to this aspect of humanity.

[Grayhome]

To paraphrase - it's not that humanity is smarter than everyone else, or that the other species are somehow less inventive, it's that humanity has incentivized rapid scientific and technological progression.

I would add that humanity has developed Democracy, a stable political/social structure to support this rapid progress. I would argue that such a political/social system is as vital, if not even more so, than developing the means to rapidly advance technology.

Then again I am a Political Scientist, so i am biased in that regard.

So humanity in this setting is a creative/democratic/charismatic species? That's so op, omfg nerf humanity plz.

[dragoongfa]

Chapter 7, part 3

“Thank you doctor, that will be all.” Captain Asteios said and closed the channel.

“Sir, I looked through the Loroi data and I think that I have found the reason as to why our systems can’t adapt it to our standards.” Sensors officer Lieutenant Richard Grant said when he saw that.

“Is that even possible? With completely alien data?” The Captain asked in disbelief.

“Yes sir, data of this kind is easy; the integration the Orgus jump, navigation and communications protocols to our computers without having to rewrite our entire systems was the hard part.” The Lieutenant replied.

“Interesting, so what is the problem and how do we fix it?”

“There are a lot of unknown words in the data and the system can’t comprehend it in order to archive everything in the ‘Pedia’ format. The problem should fix itself if we get the Loroi lexicon.” Lieutenant Grant replied.

“Lieutenant Vinica, please contact the Loroi and politely ask them for their lexicon.” Captain Asteios ordered.

“Yes sir.” The operations officer replied as the Captain stood up from his post and gestured his second in command to follow him in the captain’s sea cabin.

“Sir?” Commander Albert Summers asked when the door closed behind him.

“Our next course of action is to give aid to the stranded Loroi, hoping that this will help us when the official negotiations begin.” Captain Asteios said as he sat on his office’s chair.

“That would certainly help the diplomats at Prahbu but that is not the elephant in the room, is it?” The commander replied.

“Their telepathy and our apparent immunity to it.” The captain agreed.

“If that wasn’t in the way we would probably be another minor species dragged in this war but with it in the picture…” The commander sighed at that. “Our options have become extremely limited in scope.”

“That’s one way to put it.” Captain Asteios replied with a smirk. “The Loroi have committed two genocides already; one against a species which also had telepathic immunity. The other against a species that was officially allied with the Umiak.”

“We are already immune to their telepathy, if we ally with the Umiak as well then that only invites overwhelming Loroi retaliation.” Commander Summers agreed.

“Losing their telepathic advantage would be a huge blow to them; it’s obvious that their entire society revolves around it. Having someone who just negates that advantage… We have to ally with the Loroi; if only to avoid them turning Earth into a cratered ruin as a precaution.”

“The Umiak would certainly love to have it but…” The commander’s face turned sour as he thought that. “They have already failed to protect one of their allies; we can’t take that chance.”

“Would they even protect us? We are still hundreds of light years out of their way; would they send a fleet strong enough to protect us or would they just take enough test subjects and leave us hanging with just a token force? We know that the Loroi will come for us and they will do so with everything they have.” The captain pointed out.

“We have no choice…” Commander Summer’s face lit up as he thought of something. “Unless the Umiak are winning the war already.”

“If that’s the case then the picture changes but how do we figure it out? Propaganda is undoubtedly rampant on both sides; trying to get the truth out of them is a fool’s errand.” The captain shook his head at that. “We have to learn what we can from the Loroi, we need to catch a glimpse of how their morale and general state of affairs are standing. If they are near collapse then we can risk an alliance with the Umiak, knowing that any possible Loroi retaliation will come only if the Umiak waste their advantage and even then they won’t attack immediately, they will have to lick their wounds before going on the offensive again. If however the war is really at a stalemate…”

“We pick the Loroi praying that what their diplomat said about them sharing their technology is true. The longer the stalemate goes on and we remain hidden, the longer we will have to adapt the tech and build a defensive fleet.” The commander said and the captain chuckled.

“Almost an hour ago you said something completely different.”

“That hurts…” The Commander said with obvious self depreciation. “In hindsight it was foolish and in the end the knowledge of our telepathic immunity is of far greater concern than the value of anything that we might have gotten out of that ship.”

“A big anti matter explosion certainly doesn’t compare with anything…”

“You are going to always remind me of that aren't you?" Commander Summers asked and the Captain just nodded with a smirk. “Imagine how it would turn out if we had run into someone unreasonable.”

“Perhaps the same way but it would be us who would be forced to do something drastic.” Captain Asteios reminded him.

“Bad joke.” The commander agreed. "So we will give the Loroi one of our emergency generators?"

“We have two and one of them has been designed to be easily removable in case of an off-ship emergency.” The captain replied.

“And who would have thought that the emergency would be a stranded alien warship.” Commander Summer’s replied with a laugh. “And there is the diplomat’s offer to consider.”

“We can’t ask for something too valuable, I doubt that they would even consider giving us one their ship’s weapons or damaged drives.” Captain Asteios said after some thought. “At first I considered giving them the generator for humanitarian reasons but what if they see it as a sign of weakness?”

“Who knows… Maybe she said that in desperation or she wants to see how we would react to the offer.” The commander replied.

“They are good at selling themselves to potential allies however. Offering a fair trade of equipment could be their way of establishing some trust.” Captain Asteios thought out loud. “We also don’t want them to consider us subservient fools, we mustn’t show them that we are desperate to please them. We must establish early that in the case of an alliance certain boundaries will have to be respected.”

“Us making a fair trade would be perfect for making that clear.” Commander Summers agreed.

“It’s just an emergency generator and enough fuel to last for a while, what would be considered fair for that?”

“How about their medical device?” Commander Summers pointed out.

“That’s not fair, that’s outrageous.”

“Hear me out, we don’t offer just our generator. Our generator is just a life jacket for them, it will keep them going for some time but that won’t solve their problem. We also offer to alert their homebase, even taking some of them with us as passengers as we do so. In return we don’t ask them to give us the device but to let us examine it up close while explaining how the device works and the medical principles behind it. The only tangible thing that we will ask for is a copy of its software suit for studying.” Commander Summers explained.

“Hmm…” Captain Asteios scratched his chin as he thought of that. “We would get some info about the state of affairs from the passengers while getting on their government’s good graces. The doctor also said that plenty of people are researching regeneration tech back on Earth. Having a detailed description of a working device, the principles behind and its software suit could be enough for them to get one working. Sounds great on paper but would the Loroi go for it?”

“If we imply that Loroi would also benefit from us getting that technology, the diplomat will see it as us being interested in becoming their allies. With that in mind I don’t think that the diplomat would have a lot of inhibitions about us getting a glimpse of how that device works.” Commander Summers replied.

“And since we won’t be taking the damn thing with us it shouldn’t be much of an issue.” Captain Asteios agreed. “The marines won’t be able to do all this however; we will need to send some specialists and one of the two of us will have to go to negotiate in person for such a transaction.”

“You are the Captain so that leaves me.” Commander Summers said and the Captain just nodded.

“The doctor will have to go as well since she is the only one who will be able to make heads or tails about the medical side of things. An engineer to help the Loroi install the generator and to examine the Loroi regenerator and a code monkey for the software side of things.”

Chapter 8, part 1: http://www.well-of-souls.com/forums/vie ... 254#p19254

[dragoongfa]

And this wraps up chapter 7.

I had to rewrite this btw; it just didn't feel write at first.

EDIT: I am still not 100% comfortable with it...

[Grayhome]

Awesome chapter! Voiced quite a few of my main concerns as well in it. Huh. Was not expecting that. Cannot wait for the next chapter, these are awesome to read!