[Fan Fiction] Looking forward to the Mirror (Completed)

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Logannion
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Re: [Fan Fiction] Looking forward to the Mirror

Post by Logannion »

Well, differing views among the readership aside, I enjoyed reading this update.

To change the subject though, why are the Loroi so puzzled at the Human ability to learn trade in the aforementioned timespan? Especially coming from them, since they can have both eidetic memory and the ability to transfer that knowledge telepathically very rapidly. Is this a soft manifestation of their racism towards non-telepaths?

Its a good thing they had that conversation telepathically, It could have been considered a diplomatic insult otherwise.

JQBogus
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Re: [Fan Fiction] Looking forward to the Mirror

Post by JQBogus »

Loroi might be able to learn to understand Trade very quickly, but actually learning the precision vocalizations needed to speak it clearly and quickly might take longer. Speech is not natural to the Loroi as it is to Humans, and most of them don't really have much use for it in their day to day lives.

Logannion
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Re: [Fan Fiction] Looking forward to the Mirror

Post by Logannion »

That may be it. I guess its the classic 'I don't know how to do it, so those that could must be outstanding, since I'm not dumb' scenario. :P

Funny thing really, humanity is the only race that could teach the Loroi how it is like to be a non-telepath. I wonder what a Loroi raised by humans (only, no other contact with any other species) would end up being like. If all things go smoothly, I wonder if Mizol might be embedded into Human Majority culture in the future as a practical test of some sort.

Meh. *shrugs*

Sweforce
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Re: [Fan Fiction] Looking forward to the Mirror

Post by Sweforce »

This reminds me of how in the original story Alex was about to teach Beryl an human language in "a few moments". So far into that story they have not been able to start doing that but I suspect that the loroi will relay heavily on telepathic scanning when learning a new language this way. That will not work with Alex thou due to his immunity so poor Beryl will have to learn the old fashion way hopefully she is a fast learner. BTW I got a co worker that speak five languages, thou not all fluently. I still have to correct her Swedish from time to time (on her request) but her daughters that is born here speak it fluently of course.

An observation regarding my coworker I sometimes overhear her speaking with a relative on the phone in an Indian language (hindi?) with mixed in words and phrases in Swedish. I had this idea of what would happened if some loroi where placed onboard human ships. The loroi era of exploration ended a long time ago but they are now in a position where they really could use some exploration, if nothing else in order to find a place for a backup colony way out of the way from the local bubble. logistics may may make it better to use the humans ships for this.

As a courtesy, the loroi would speak trade or a human language even to each other while surrounded by humans but, of course, they would lapse into sanzai as well, causing a stuttered speak. They may also momentarily forget that the humans cannot understand sanzai from time to time, send something, causing them to do a mental facepalm and then formulate what they wanted to say as proper speech. When they do that, well sometimes I write a long forum post just to have some glitch eat it forcing me to do it again. When I do, the new attempt tend to be much more primitive since I just cannot be arsed to do it all again. Sometimes I just do not post at all. A lorioi enter the mess room, just look at a human for a second, just enough to establish eye contact, moments later she just say "nothing" and walks out again, unwilling to reform what she wanted to say in the form of words since just looking for coffee machine herself is easier then to ask.

Logannion
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Re: [Fan Fiction] Looking forward to the Mirror

Post by Logannion »

Sweforce wrote: As a courtesy, the loroi would speak trade or a human language even to each other while surrounded by humans but, of course, they would lapse into sanzai as well, causing a stuttered speak. They may also momentarily forget that the humans cannot understand sanzai from time to time, send something, causing them to do a mental facepalm and then formulate what they wanted to say as proper speech. When they do that, well sometimes I write a long forum post just to have some glitch eat it forcing me to do it again. When I do, the new attempt tend to be much more primitive since I just cannot be arsed to do it all again. Sometimes I just do not post at all. A loroi enter the mess room, just look at a human for a second, just enough to establish eye contact, moments later she just say "nothing" and walks out again, unwilling to reform what she wanted to say in the form of words since just looking for coffee machine herself is easier then to ask.
True that, Its bad enough that Loroi Trade isn't their first language (which is telepathy), its even worse in that the spoken word is much more constrictive than telepathy.
Sweforce wrote:This reminds me of how in the original story Alex was about to teach Beryl an human language in "a few moments". So far into that story they have not been able to start doing that but I suspect that the loroi will relay heavily on telepathic scanning when learning a new language this way. That will not work with Alex thou due to his immunity so poor Beryl will have to learn the old fashion way hopefully she is a fast learner.
This is something I hope they'll get to do over the flight. :geek:

Zakharra
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Re: [Fan Fiction] Looking forward to the Mirror

Post by Zakharra »

And I will see your fictional conflict and raise you the Vietnam and the American Revolutionary War. RazorOne I know it's a fictional sci-fi fan fiction but you will do your points more credit by using example from real life and not from fiction. There are conflicts throughout human history that went well for the higher TL faction, and conflicts in which the opposite is also true.
The problem with that is with the American Revolutionary War and Vietnam, the Americans and NVA/Viet Cong both had ample outside support to fight the war. The Continental army would have had a much harder time fighting, and very well could have lost without French support. As would the Viet Cong/NVA would have lost against the US military if they hadn't had support from China and the USSR. The afghans would have very likely lost if the US hadn't been supplying the mujaheddin with RPGs, surface to air missiles and other technological goodies that helped them resist the Soviets much more effectively.

Against a foe with as much of an overwhelming edge in technology as the Loroi have, Humanity would flat out -lose- any conflict with them. No questions asked. Even with Umiak help, Humanity would lose heavily. If we were not destroyed/wiped out, we'd be essentially slaves under the very heavy hand of the Umiak. Remember that even to their most trusted allies, the Umiak impose ruinous economic burdens. Heavy enough to strain all resources and economic systems, and incidentally usually wrecking the environment in the process.
Grayhome wrote:See there we go.

Also now that I reflect on the matter, I would have killed all the Loroi nabbed what tech I could and run. They're just going out of their way to be as difficult as possible.

Ain't nobody got time for that.

You'd better hope that the Loroi never find out what you did either or vengeance would come looking.

I do not see what your issue is; the Loroi are NOT making this as difficult as possible. They are going out of their way to avoid any diplomatic snafus. How do I know this? The humans are still alive! Remember that at initial contact, ALL of the Loroi thought this was a trick of the Umiak. Their normal reaction would have been to kill the 'trick' and deal with the consequences, if any, afterwards. Humanity is there to initiate contact, not start an interstellar war we would lose before we even started.

Right now both sides are talking, not shooting (a very important distinction), and the Loroi are being very up front with what they can do (more or less). It is setting the tone for what future diplomatic meetings can work with since it's impossible to take the telepathy and telekinesis out of the Loroi. The way you were wanting the humans to act is the humans being as difficult as possible for no reason other than to be difficult./just because. Humanity needs information, not bodies. This means they have to talk and to deal with the fact they are speaking to an alien civilization who would have different views on first contacts. ie, what we might consider acceptable, they might not. The cultural differences are going to have to be ignored for now, just so they can formally establish diplomatic ties. Razor One points that out very well (and you agreed with him). For some reason you seem to think that Humanity should be looking for a fight rather than trying to avoid one.

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Grayhome
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Re: [Fan Fiction] Looking forward to the Mirror

Post by Grayhome »

Wow, I'm still getting responses to this? Awesome, ok let's see what we've got here...
The problem with that is with the American Revolutionary War and Vietnam, the Americans and NVA/Viet Cong both had ample outside support to fight the war. The Continental army would have had a much harder time fighting, and very well could have lost without French support. As would the Viet Cong/NVA would have lost against the US military if they hadn't had support from China and the USSR. The afghans would have very likely lost if the US hadn't been supplying the mujaheddin with RPGs, surface to air missiles and other technological goodies that helped them resist the Soviets much more effectively.
Yeah. It sure is a shame that another technologically advanced society isn't around to give us advanced tech to fight the Loroi.

And has a reason to give it to us.

Like being at war with the Loroi.

...
Even with Umiak help, Humanity would lose heavily. If we were not destroyed/wiped out, we'd be essentially slaves under the very heavy hand of the Umiak. Remember that even to their most trusted allies, the Umiak impose ruinous economic burdens. Heavy enough to strain all resources and economic systems, and incidentally usually wrecking the environment in the process.
Wait. wait.

Wasn't your entire first paragraph devoted to saying that there is no one else that can give us tech to fight the Loroi, if it came to war?
But in response to that second point (which contradicts the first) one of the main plot elements demonstrated thus far is that humans are amazing diplomats. I'm fairly sure that human diplomatic wizardry can work out a deal with the Umiak that's good all around.
You'd better hope that the Loroi never find out what you did either or vengeance would come looking.
Given the quality of soldier the Loroi have demonstrated thus far my response to that would be that the Loroi have much more to fear from even a TL 9 humanity that humans have of the Loroi. I am simply not impressed with the Loroi have thus far demonstrated. Kinda disappointing really, but I would expect that going on 25 years of constant battle the quality of warrior the Loroi can field would drop dramatically.
I do not see what your issue is; the Loroi are NOT making this as difficult as possible. They are going out of their way to avoid any diplomatic snafus. How do I know this? The humans are still alive!
... well. That's a... that's a pretty low bar... to set...

...

I'm just going to let that statement stand on it's own merits. Moving right along.

Right now both sides are talking, not shooting (a very important distinction), and the Loroi are being very up front with what they can do (more or less).
... Zakharra you seem not to understand the delicate and incredibly volatile nature of international relations. The Loroi diplomat has just informed the Human diplomat that she has brought weapons to the diplomatic meeting that can destroy armored vehicles. That is an automatic fail in the area of diplomatic relations, with the general response of: "Welp, you've just stated you have invisible, intangible guns that you have pointed at the back of our heads at all times. We're done with you. No dialogue is possible while being conducted under the threat of deadly force. We can't even begin to start a peaceful and honest dialogue under these conditions."

I've seen a few responses to my comments along the lines of "Oh it's fine that the Loroi brought anti-tank weapons to the talks, they're in the other room. It's fine, they have some metal sheeting separating them and that makes it ok somehow."

I will remind everyone that the Outsider Insider article detailing Psychokinetic abilities clearly states that such abilities can and have been used, frequently and to great effect, without the user being in direct eye contact with the target. Psychokinetic abilities bypass bulkheads, armor and flesh alike and saying the user's is outsider the room is... well it's just a none issue. Excusing the Loroi for bringing those warriors instead of non-psychokinetic warriors armed with blasters (which would still be a bad idea, just less of one) is just a silly defense of it's use in this situation.

Bakin' a Father's Day cake for my pappy, more later, maybe.

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dragoongfa
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Re: [Fan Fiction] Looking forward to the Mirror

Post by dragoongfa »

@Grayhome

I would like to point out that since humans are invisible to sensing then using Telekinesis on them without a field of view is impossible and considering how even today popping one's head out of cover to take a look is suicide, the humans have almost fully nullified telekinesis as a weapon without doing anything.

Then in regards to tech sharing, so far the insider doesn't say anything that the Umiak have given any tech to their subservient races and out of all the known ones, only the Morat are known to still have stand alone fleets although greatly depleted due to casualties and heavy Umiak taxation which doesn't allow for casualty replenishment. We don't know what the Umiak may ask but I am sure that humanity won't get much in the way of favorable treatment out of them. What humanity does know is that the Umiak failed to protect the Tithric despite the Tithric being right next to them and that the Loroi hate Umiak allies as much as the Umiak themselves. Matveyev's crew have also seen what the Loroi do to their enemies first hand before meeting the Loroi; then there are the Mannadi who are problematic to telepathy themselves and what happened to them when they pissed off the Loroi.

Humanity fills one of two criteria of Loroi ire, if it fills both you might as well paint a 'KILL THIS LOROI' sign on every human planet because the Loroi will come for humanity without any mercy. In order for this not to happen they have two choices; either they offer anything and everything to the Umiak, hoping that they will provide adequate defense to humanity or immediately ally with the Loroi who despite their genocidal tendencies are known to treat their friends well while sharing tech with them.

I think that the above has been adequately explained in the story.

The rest will be covered in the story in due time.

EDIT: I will also leave this here in regards to telekinesis and other superpowers:

http://grrlpowercomic.com/archives/1758

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Grayhome
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Re: [Fan Fiction] Looking forward to the Mirror

Post by Grayhome »

I would like to point out that since humans are invisible to sensing then using Telekinesis on them without a field of view is impossible and considering how even today popping one's head out of cover to take a look is suicide, the humans have almost fully nullified telekinesis as a weapon without doing anything.
I believe Arioch has already stated that psychokinetics can use their telekinetic abilities to "feel around" for targets to use their abilities upon; or that the Loroi in the room can simply triangulate to the Loroi in the hall where the humans are in relation to herself but if that's the way you want to take the story, ok.
Then in regards to tech sharing, so far the insider doesn't say anything that the Umiak have given any tech to their subservient races and out of all the known ones, only the Morat are known to still have stand alone fleets although greatly depleted due to casualties and heavy Umiak taxation which doesn't allow for casualty replenishment. We don't know what the Umiak may ask but I am sure that humanity won't get much in the way of favorable treatment out of them.
I didn't say it wouldn't be difficult dragoonfa. I'm just saying that the humans depicted so far are diplomat wizards.
Humanity fills one of two criteria of Loroi ire, if it fills both you might as well paint a 'KILL THIS LOROI' sign on every human planet because the Loroi will come for humanity without any mercy. In order for this not to happen they have two choices; either they offer anything and everything to the Umiak, hoping that they will provide adequate defense to humanity or immediately ally with the Loroi who despite their genocidal tendencies are known to treat their friends well while sharing tech with them.
I see little evidence supporting the theory that the Loroi treat their friends well (by any widely accepted definition of the of the word "well"). I would define the relationships that the Loroi enjoy with their non-Loroi allies as parasitic. The Loroi use aliens to do things that they are too lazy, too stupid, or too arrogant to do themselves and offer a certain degree of incompetent protection to their alien "friends" for those reasons and those reasons only. I refuse to qualify that as "friendship" of any kind. That the Umiak treat their "friends" worse by comparison is not particularly endearing the Loroi to me as it seems to be to other members of the forum.

That the Loroi lowered their guard before the current war and allowed the Umiak to catch them by surprise really screams at me that they are not capable of, nor are they interested in, protecting anyone. They're far too busy admiring their own reflections in the mirror and playing with their hair. They have supremely failed in their duties and they own that now, and all of the deaths and destruction that failure has resulted in.

I see little evidence that the Loroi have any real friends, even amongst their own species. From what I gather from the fluff, in early Loroi history one Loroi faction made an expedition off world, nabbed some advanced psi-tech from a dead civilization and started murder/enslaving every other Loroi faction it could find. Then, once all opposing Loroi factions were murder/enslaved, they started expanding that outwards. There is a lot of bad blood boiling around in the pointy ear's empire stew, and the only thing keeping the lid on it is the threat of violence and fear; also the "promotion" of political undesirables to the frontline in rickety old tubs that haven't seen upgrades or refits in ages (see the Tempest for examples of this).

I strongly assume that humanity will exploit all of these points later on in the comic to devastating effect. I don't really expect the current Loroi empire to survive it's contact with humanity or even that it deserves too. I also don't expect that the Loroi will long remain the sole wielders of psionic abilities.

If they even are at the time of me writing this.

There are only bad option and worse options here, that I can see.

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dragoongfa
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Re: [Fan Fiction] Looking forward to the Mirror

Post by dragoongfa »

Grayhome wrote: I believe Arioch has already stated that psychokinetics can use their telekinetic abilities to "feel around" for targets to use their abilities upon; or that the Loroi in the room can simply triangulate to the Loroi in the hall where the humans are in relation to herself but if that's the way you want to take the story, ok.
That would be wasting time in a combat situation, I imagine something like a blind person snooping around with their hands; just a little bit quicker. In a combat environment with lots of chaotic movement it wouldn't mean much. Maybe it would be of use in a search and destroy mission where the opposition is in hiding.

I didn't say it wouldn't be difficult dragoonfa. I'm just saying that the humans depicted so far are diplomat wizards.
They are the best of the Scout corps, trained for first contact situations while they were drilled non stop in order to know what to do and what the stakes are.

EDIT2: Still just humans though.

I see little evidence supporting the theory that the Loroi treat their friends well (by any widely accepted definition of the of the word "well"). I would define the relationships that the Loroi enjoy with their non-Loroi allies as parasitic. The Loroi use aliens to do things that they are too lazy, too stupid, or too arrogant to do themselves and offer a certain degree of incompetent protection to their alien "friends" for those reasons and those reasons only. I refuse to qualify that as "friendship" of any kind. That the Umiak treat their "friends" worse by comparison is not particularly endearing the Loroi to me as it seems to be to other members of the forum.
The Neridi, Barsam and Pipolsid are expanding on new planets, they are represented on the Assembly and have a lot of Loroi industrial capability outsourced to them. The Golim are under a weird position, nominally independent/union members but they are telepathically mesmerized when close to Loroi; the Loroi have taken measures to limit this. The Delrias attacked the Loroi early on and lost. Although occupied they have been left to tend their own internal affairs as long as they don't cause trouble to the Loroi, they have been so cooperative that they are allowed to send delegates to the assembly even if they don't have official power. The Arekka were at war with the Loroi and although a faction is still nominally independent they are considered friendly to the Loroi. The Mannadi wars started when the Mannadi attacked the Pipolsid and the Neridi who were Loroi allies and the Loroi came to their rescue. They Mannadi ended with them being occupied by the Loroi but highly uncooperative with a widespread terrorist actions against the Loroi. The Loroi killed most of them and quarantined the rest.

Out of all of the above the Loroi have never started a war, they or their allies were attacked and the Loroi won the war (with the exception of the 3rd Mannadi war which the Loroi started in order to knock out a proven hostile power). Out of all the species they conquered, the Loroi have left one with nominal autonomy, the other is split like Ireland and the third constantly pissed off the Loroi until they snapped.

Compare and contrast the above with how the Umiak overtax their allies, failing to protect them and their Umiak supremacist attitudes.
That the Loroi lowered their guard before the current war and allowed the Umiak to catch them by surprise really screams at me that they are not capable of, nor are they interested in, protecting anyone. They're far too busy admiring their own reflections in the mirror and playing with their hair. They have supremely failed in their duties and they own that now, and all of the deaths and destruction that failure has resulted in.
The USSR was attacked by the Germans by a surprise attack that the Soviets didn't want to see coming. The Germans crushed all Soviet armies in their wake, taking millions as prisoners, they raped and pillaged at will, they were lauded as heroes in the Baltics and East Ukraine and ended up with surrounding Leningrad and being a few dozen kilometers away from Moscow.

The USA miscalculated Japanese intentions and didn't expect that the Japs will choose war. They ended up with the attack of Pearl Harbor, losing the Philippines (a US protectorate with US troops occupying it) and seeing the Japs win battle after battle.

With your logic the safe bet for a small Latin American or African nation would be to ally itself with the Axis. We know how WW2 ended and we know that German and Japanese propaganda painted their adversaries as degenerate cowards who preferred an easy life over war and they would be overrun quickly.
I see little evidence that the Loroi have any real friends, even amongst their own species. From what I gather from the fluff, in early Loroi history one Loroi faction made an expedition off world, nabbed some advanced psi-tech from a dead civilization and started murder/enslaving every other Loroi faction it could find. Then, once all opposing Loroi factions were murder/enslaved, they started expanding that outwards. There is a lot of bad blood boiling around in the pointy ear's empire stew, and the only thing keeping the lid on it is the threat of violence and fear; also the "promotion" of political undesirables to the frontline in rickety old tubs that haven't seen upgrades or refits in ages (see the Tempest for examples of this).
See above for how the Loroi treated aliens and the murder/enslaving of fellow Loroi part is a misunderstanding from your part. The Loroi loathe slavery and they didn't massacre their subdued Loroi adversaries, the Loroi to Loroi wars were 'honorable' with armies fighting each other on the open field, the loser accepted defeat and the winner didn't massacre civilians for sport. As for Stillstorm and Tempest, I don't think that Stillstorm ever wanted to be anywhere else than the front lines and I don't think that Tempest hasn't received refits.


I think that you are basing all of the above in misunderstanding the Insider and the miscellaneous Loroi questions thread.
I strongly assume that humanity will exploit all of these points later on in the comic to devastating effect. I don't really expect the current Loroi empire to survive it's contact with humanity or that even that it deserves too. I also don't expect that the Loroi will long remain the sole wielders of psionic abilities.

If they even are at the time of me writing this.

There are only bad option and worse options here, that I can see.
We shall see what we shall see in the story.

EDIT: Damn, wrong formating
EDIT2: Need to stop writing stuff after hours with barely any sleep.
Last edited by Guest on Sun Jun 21, 2015 11:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Grayhome
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Re: [Fan Fiction] Looking forward to the Mirror

Post by Grayhome »

... I honestly can't tell if you are even trying anymore dragoonfa.

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dragoongfa
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Re: [Fan Fiction] Looking forward to the Mirror

Post by dragoongfa »

Grayhome wrote:... I honestly can't tell if you are even trying anymore dragoonfa.
Time will tell.

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Grayhome
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Re: [Fan Fiction] Looking forward to the Mirror

Post by Grayhome »

Time will tell.
I certainly hope so, I guess we'll have to wait out the next few decades and see.

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Siber
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Re: [Fan Fiction] Looking forward to the Mirror

Post by Siber »

All I'll say is that the kind of atrocities and evidence of Loroi brutality that you keep pointing to, Grayhome, are the kinds of things that you tend to find in the history of any nation on earth with much sway in world events, and the political motivations of Stillstorm's assignment also tend to crop up a lot in well documented wars, even for countries that went on to win and be stable for centuries afterwards. I very much doubt that your implicit assumption that the Umiak are relatively noble once you get past the bug exterior would be borne out if we had more details on their history and internal machinations. Powerful nations and powerful people basically never get that way by being nice.
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Grayhome
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Re: [Fan Fiction] Looking forward to the Mirror

Post by Grayhome »

All I'll say is that the kind of atrocities and evidence of Loroi brutality that you keep pointing to, Grayhome, are the kinds of things that you tend to find in the history of any nation on earth with much sway in world events, and the political motivations of Stillstorm's assignment also tend to crop up a lot in well documented wars, even for countries that went on to win and be stable for centuries afterwards.
Yea. That's what worries me.
I very much doubt that your implicit assumption that the Umiak are relatively noble once you get past the bug exterior would be borne out if we had more details on their history and internal machinations. Powerful nations and powerful people basically never get that way by being nice.
*sigh*

I never assumed that. To my recollection I've never assumed anything even close to that. Humanity's got bad options and worse options, is my opinion. To clarify my opinion, humanity gets the wondrous choice between a dangerously treacherous ally, or a dangerously incompetent ally. You get to decide which is which, and which is better.

Zakharra
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Re: [Fan Fiction] Looking forward to the Mirror

Post by Zakharra »

Grayhome wrote:Wow, I'm still getting responses to this? Awesome, ok let's see what we've got here...
The problem with that is with the American Revolutionary War and Vietnam, the Americans and NVA/Viet Cong both had ample outside support to fight the war. The Continental army would have had a much harder time fighting, and very well could have lost without French support. As would the Viet Cong/NVA would have lost against the US military if they hadn't had support from China and the USSR. The afghans would have very likely lost if the US hadn't been supplying the mujaheddin with RPGs, surface to air missiles and other technological goodies that helped them resist the Soviets much more effectively.
Yeah. It sure is a shame that another technologically advanced society isn't around to give us advanced tech to fight the Loroi.

And has a reason to give it to us.

Like being at war with the Loroi.

...
The problem is the Umiak are just as bad as the Loroi. The cure would be just as damhaging, if not worse for humanity than the Loroi are. At least with the Loroi, we'd be just dead. Under the Umiak, we'd be slaves, and very likely many humans would be dissected and experimented on to find out why we are immune to Loroi telepathy and far sense. Under the Umiak, slavery is the best option humanity would face. They do not treat anyone well. Allies just remain alive, which putting pretty much all of their economy to serve the Umiak. They are like chitin bound Borg in a sense. Besides, it's extremely likely the Umiak couldn't come to humanity's aid (never mind what ever form the aid would be) fast enough. All it takes is one Loroi Strike group and they could wipe out humanity in less than a month.
Even with Umiak help, Humanity would lose heavily. If we were not destroyed/wiped out, we'd be essentially slaves under the very heavy hand of the Umiak. Remember that even to their most trusted allies, the Umiak impose ruinous economic burdens. Heavy enough to strain all resources and economic systems, and incidentally usually wrecking the environment in the process.
Wait. wait.

Wasn't your entire first paragraph devoted to saying that there is no one else that can give us tech to fight the Loroi, if it came to war?
But in response to that second point (which contradicts the first) one of the main plot elements demonstrated thus far is that humans are amazing diplomats. I'm fairly sure that human diplomatic wizardry can work out a deal with the Umiak that's good all around.
You're not understanding what I wrote. There's no one we humans would be able to have supply us that would help us. With the Umiak, Humanity becomes their slaves. They would NOT leave an independent Humanity. They would come down on us with a single battlegroup and enforce their will and harsh economic demands on us.
You'd better hope that the Loroi never find out what you did either or vengeance would come looking.
Given the quality of soldier the Loroi have demonstrated thus far my response to that would be that the Loroi have much more to fear from even a TL 9 humanity that humans have of the Loroi. I am simply not impressed with the Loroi have thus far demonstrated. Kinda disappointing really, but I would expect that going on 25 years of constant battle the quality of warrior the Loroi can field would drop dramatically.
They are doing damned good considering the Loroi are outnumbered by several factors. Humanity would have been overrun long ago. It's only the far sense and technological superiority (a slight edge, but its enough for the Loroi to stay in range) has let the Loroi survive at all.
I do not see what your issue is; the Loroi are NOT making this as difficult as possible. They are going out of their way to avoid any diplomatic snafus. How do I know this? The humans are still alive!
... well. That's a... that's a pretty low bar... to set...
It's Loroi space, the humans have come to them to make a treaty so it behooves us to play by -their- rules. Their space, their rules. how hard is that for you to understand?

...

I'm just going to let that statement stand on it's own merits. Moving right along.

Right now both sides are talking, not shooting (a very important distinction), and the Loroi are being very up front with what they can do (more or less).
... Zakharra you seem not to understand the delicate and incredibly volatile nature of international relations. The Loroi diplomat has just informed the Human diplomat that she has brought weapons to the diplomatic meeting that can destroy armored vehicles. That is an automatic fail in the area of diplomatic relations, with the general response of: "Welp, you've just stated you have invisible, intangible guns that you have pointed at the back of our heads at all times. We're done with you. No dialogue is possible while being conducted under the threat of deadly force. We can't even begin to start a peaceful and honest dialogue under these conditions."

I've seen a few responses to my comments along the lines of "Oh it's fine that the Loroi brought anti-tank weapons to the talks, they're in the other room. It's fine, they have some metal sheeting separating them and that makes it ok somehow."

I will remind everyone that the Outsider Insider article detailing Psychokinetic abilities clearly states that such abilities can and have been used, frequently and to great effect, without the user being in direct eye contact with the target. Psychokinetic abilities bypass bulkheads, armor and flesh alike and saying the user's is outsider the room is... well it's just a none issue. Excusing the Loroi for bringing those warriors instead of non-psychokinetic warriors armed with blasters (which would still be a bad idea, just less of one) is just a silly defense of it's use in this situation.

How is that even a problem? Remember the humans are coming to them. To their courtyard (so to speak). We're trying NOT to appear a threat and it's impossible for the Loroi to remove telekinesis from them selves. This is also a warship that has suffered serious damage. It's not like they have a lot of options and the Loroi are doing the best with the resources they have at hand. Which means having TK 'armed' Loroi in the meeting. and since the humans are allowed to have soldiers in the meeting, what is so offensive to you about the Loroi having a few TK 'armed' individuals in the meeting too? Is humanity supposed to have an advantage over the Loroi?

You seem to be saying that it's the Loroi that should be lining up under human set rules of diplomacy rather than the other way around. If the Loroi had approached Humanity on their home worlds, then they would have to more or less conform to humanity's diplomatic rules (once they know of them and diplomacy will make exceptions for foreign customs, so don't discount humans demanding that no TK armed Loroi be allowed in any future diplomatic meeting/discussion).

And you keep forgetting or ignoring one very important thing: it's THEIR courtyard, not ours. WE came to THEM. So it's their rules that will determine what happens, and if TK armed Loroi regularly sit in on meetings with the other races of the Loroi Union, then why should humanity get an exception? So far you've shown no good reason why the Loroi should bow to our wishes and be offended at being shown what TK abilities can do. By informing the humans, the Loroi was being frank and open. It was a way to show some of her cards so there would be no misunderstanding later. Besides, what's going to happen when other Loroi with TK abilities show up? Are they going to have to be forbidden from any interaction with humans and human diplomats?

Instead you're acting like it's a huge insult and the human reaction should be; "Welp, you've just stated you have invisible, intangible guns that you have pointed at the back of our heads at all times. We're done with you. No dialogue is possible while being conducted under the threat of deadly force. We can't even begin to start a peaceful and honest dialogue under these conditions." Doing that would get humanity put on the 'Kill ASAP' list pdq. Honestly, you come across as someone who wants humanity to be looking for a fight and a reason to make outrageous demands. It's like you want a reasons, any reason, to reject an alliance with the Loroi, and will take anything as a slight to be used as leverage to make outrageous demands.

Sweforce
Posts: 546
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Re: [Fan Fiction] Looking forward to the Mirror

Post by Sweforce »

Keep in mind that Silverspear is a warship on a combat mission and a destroyer at that. As such it is a somewhat small warship so to expect that they even have an diplomatic officer onboard is a bit much to ask. A large percentage of the crew is dead and judging from the captains condition, many of the survivors are probably severely injured so they need to work with what they have, as such an intelligence officer are probably the closest thing they have for a diplomat. To expect that the captain herself do it is just not possible since she isn't only grievously wounded but also suffers from a mental breakdown. I believe they could be allowed some slack here, especially if Shadowcloud explains the situation.

Argron
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Re: [Fan Fiction] Looking forward to the Mirror

Post by Argron »

People, we are being trolled.

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Grayhome
Posts: 550
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2011 2:11 am

Re: [Fan Fiction] Looking forward to the Mirror

Post by Grayhome »

People, we are being trolled.
Oh no, no no no no no. I am an accredited political scientist and I am telling all of you truthfully and honestly that what the Loroi have done so far amount to war crimes, and that we (the United States) have gone to war over far lesser offences.

I can only imagine what China/Russia's response would be if their diplomats were subjected to similar circumstances.

Zakharra
Posts: 165
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 3:46 am

Re: [Fan Fiction] Looking forward to the Mirror

Post by Zakharra »

Grayhome wrote:
People, we are being trolled.
Oh no, no no no no no. I am an accredited political scientist and I am telling all of you truthfully and honestly that what the Loroi have done so far amount to war crimes, and that we (the United States) have gone to war over far lesser offences.

I can only imagine what China/Russia's response would be if their diplomats were subjected to similar circumstances.
There's several problems with that analogy though. We -know- Russia and China's capabilities. They are human, the Loroi aren't. Humanity knows next to nothing about the Loroi and is desperately trying to make up that lack of information, with the added /bonus/ of we have to align with one side or we will be overrun. The West is also at or above the Russians/Chinese in some areas of technology. With the Loroi and Umiak, we're way behind.

You're an accredited political scientist? Of what school? The North Korea School of political Science and Diplomacy? You need to bear some things in mind when you are considering how the human Scouts should/are likely to react to the situation at hand. 1: we went looking for the Loroi to establish diplomatic contact and possibly/hopefully make a treaty of alliance with them. They didn't come to us, we went looking for them. That means we're the supplicants, not the Loroi. This suggests we don't start off any diplomatic contact by getting offended and making outrageous demands just because the Loroi officer told us and demonstrated her TK abilities so we would be aware of them and not be caught by surprise if she hadn't mentioned them! After all it's not like the Loroi with the TK abilities can remove them and the Loroi still don't necessarily trust the humans yet, so I fail to see why them having guards there when the humans clearly have soldiers at the meeting too, is an issue. This is two military units meeting in an emergency situation. Things aren't going to be By the Book on either side. So allowances have to be made.
2: Humanity is seriously outclassed in every aspect technologically and economically. The Loroi and Umiak are the interstellar superpowers (USA) and the six worlds of Humanity are a poor third world nation that can barely keep its somewhat advanced planes flying (Sudan or some shithole nation that is semi dangerous to the locals, but not capable of projecting power.) So it would be insanely stupid to start making demands of the Loroi like we are the ones with the superior military forces. One Strike Group can easily crush the TCA fleet in a single engagement and devastate all of humanity's worlds.
3: We're trying to get on their good side. You -don't- get there by making outrageous and blatantly stupid demands of personnel and soldiers of a stellar nation that is clearly far more powerful than your nation over something as trivial as explaining why/how TK abilities work. The Loroi are trying to avoid a diplomatic screw up, but if humans push them too far, they will just kill the Scouts, then inform their commanders of the humans and how rude and obnoxious they are.

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