Dreaming of the Garden Discussion Thread

[inxsi]

Touching is a very private matter for the Loroi since it enhances the bandwidth of the mental link by an order of magnitude. I guess it might be normal for friends or family to touch each other, but Alex is a male and Loroi do not have much contact between the sexes outside mating encounters. Or does Beryl want to explore that strange pair bonding practice?

She prefers talking to Alex mentally - like most Loroi, she thinks sanzai is a better form of communication than speech, but they cannot broadcast their sanzai so close to the farseer. I'll leave it to the reader's imagination on Beryl's feelings for Alex, though I doubt the Loroi leadership will want her to have feelings for Alex that would impair her fulfilling her duties as a Loroi warrior.

If he wants to be sympathetic towards Beryl, it needs to be worded differently, too. This sounds like he considered himself to be part of Tempest's crew, but he was effectively a prisoner the entire time. Honestly, in a similar situation, I wouldn't shed a single tear if the ship were to be destroyed. It's war, after all, and losses are to be expected.
Alex is also unaccustomed to fighting or interstellar warfare in general, since all the space battles he "participated" in were simulations.

Yeah, I probably should have thought about how to word it better - he is aware that she will notice him lying so I was trying to have him deflect her without lying or revealing his worries. But I think I missed the mark, though I'm not sure what he should be saying there. And I think he is stuck in having to tolerate Stillstorm since she is so good at killing Umiak (at least, she is according to Beryl)

While Alex has not been in any real fighting (I'll assume that the Bellarmine's demise and his time on Tempest does not count), I think all of his simulated battles emphasized that he would be involved at some point - as a cadet/ensign, he is too junior to be in a position where he is waiting around to see how other groups do. Beryl is suffering from having to hear how the Tempest does without being at risk or able to help them directly - I think Alex could suffer from something similar. He was trained to be an ambassador (to an extent) but also expected that once a treaty was agreed to, he would be fighting alongside his allies in some capacity. He is only 19 years old after all.

The new chapter is very interesting. I doubt that the Umiak are foolish enough to risk a 5% chance, therefore it's highly likely that they can twist the odds in their favor.

I'm sure the Umiak are just going to wander in with no plan. I mean, they're giant bugs - how smart can they be? Though I probably should have had them also run the prediction on the jump that the Prophet's Reason made to Azimol - it was considerably less than 5%

[Cthulhu]

Well, I'm not going to tell you how to write your fanfic, I'm just pointing out some things.
Alex is actually just an "apprentice" at this point in his career, and in modern military circumstances, he would still be assisting some experienced crew member at best. Somehow, he managed to screw up even that and was sent to the damage control party as a punishment. He may be brilliant, but also way too green and quite troublesome in the eyes of his commanding officers.

The funeral ceremony speech is good, I think that the Loroi are (sadly) very experienced in this matter by now.

[inxsi]

Well, I'm not going to tell you how to write your fanfic, I'm just pointing out some things.
Alex is actually just an "apprentice" at this point in his career, and in modern military circumstances, he would still be assisting some experienced crew member at best. Somehow, he managed to screw up even that and was sent to the damage control party as a punishment. He may be brilliant, but also way too green and quite troublesome in the eyes of his commanding officers.

No worries - thank you for the feedback.

Agreed on Alex - I think he's got a lot of training and potential but is too inexperienced to make the best choices or realize when he is not in a position to make good choices. For example, I think he thought he was being honest when he told Captain Hamilton that he knew the difference between school and the real deal but his being disciplined on the Bellarmine shows that he slipped at some point (probably from boredom with the tedium of the trip). One of the problems of being inexperienced is not realizing the difference between having been trained and having actual experience, so I think it makes sense for him to bounce around a bit from handling things very well to making absolute bonehead decisions. Though I wonder if Beryl will realize at some point - I think she is aware of how much she learned from the end of her post-diral schooling and where she was at the start of the webcomic, but I imagine the Loroi schools do a better job of bridging the gap between learning and experience than Human schooling does.

The funeral ceremony speech is good, I think that the Loroi are (sadly) very experienced in this matter by now.

I am sure the Loroi are very experienced with such funerals - though I think this was one of the more hopeful ones they have had since there is the prospect of allying with Humans out of the deal, compared to the usual list of the departed managing to destroy however many Umiak vessels. This was somewhat of an impersonal ceremony due to how many died (which is probably normal for the Loroi in this war) - I assume that there is a more personal ceremony for when a single Loroi dies. I wonder if the Tempest were lost if there would be one ceremony for the whole crew and then a separate ceremony for Stillstorm.

[Snoofman]

Surprised, but somehow I just suspected that Caitlyn was involved with Claude's demise. Equally surprised that she intensely desires Lynne. And dropping that 'blue dress' clue was well delivered. She's definitely onto Beryl. My theory is that Caitlyn is either a construct of Alex's subconscious/reptile brain that immensely desires Beryl... or Caitlyn is in fact the leviathan apparition... which could also explain why Beryl fears for Alex's safety in the dream. Because there's no telling what sort of powers the leviathan has.

[inxsi]

Surprised, but somehow I just suspected that Caitlyn was involved with Claude's demise. Equally surprised that she intensely desires Lynne. And dropping that 'blue dress' clue was well delivered. She's definitely onto Beryl. My theory is that Caitlyn is either a construct of Alex's subconscious/reptile brain that immensely desires Beryl... or Caitlyn is in fact the leviathan apparition... which could also explain why Beryl fears for Alex's safety in the dream. Because there's no telling what sort of powers the leviathan has.

Thanks for the feedback - I was wondering how my attempts to foreshadow worked. Posting that part involved a lot more second-guessing than I thought it would.

I enjoy reading the theories about Caitlyn, so I won't address them for now other than to say they all seem reasonable. I am debating whether at some point (when the story is finished) to provide author's notes on what I intended or just let everyone theorize about it.

[Snoofman]

Thanks for the feedback - I was wondering how my attempts to foreshadow worked. Posting that part involved a lot more second-guessing than I thought it would.

I enjoy reading the theories about Caitlyn, so I won't address them for now other than to say they all seem reasonable. I am debating whether at some point (when the story is finished) to provide author's notes on what I intended or just let everyone theorize about it.

I would say let people form theories to start off then provide your own notes at a later date. Just to let discussion flow and build up people's anticipation. Everyone interprets stories differently. Some readers who left comments on my stories interpreted it in ways I had not completely anticipated. It's an opportunity to sharpen our writing skills.

Otherwise, if you intend to write a sequel, then definitely not yet. Leaving people guessing makes them yearn for your next instalment.

[inxsi]

I would say let people form theories to start off then provide your own notes at a later date. Just to let discussion flow and build up people's anticipation. Everyone interprets stories differently. Some readers who left comments on my stories interpreted it in ways I had not completely anticipated. It's an opportunity to sharpen our writing skills.

Otherwise, if you intend to write a sequel, then definitely not yet. Leaving people guessing makes them yearn for your next instalment.

Ok, I will hold off on posting any notes. I know the feeling on the readers surprising the writer with their interpretations. I find it useful feedback for how readers perceive the story and it is fun trying to guess at what is going on in others stories and hope the feedback is useful.

I am not sure if there will be a sequel - I have a very rough idea for a second story that would be set after these events but I am not sure if there is enough there to be a story yet. And I don't think it would count as a sequel - I don't plan on it having the same characters (at least as the main characters) and it probably won't touch on the same ideas. In case anyone is worried about spoilers (I would say they are extremely mild):

SpoilerShow

More of a follow up on a trade mission by humanity to try to cement friendly relations with the loroi (and prove that humanity has something worth trading) that assumes the events of this story took place.

[Cthulhu]

Out of nowhere, an incredible plot twist! However, I doubt whether the police are properly equipped to handle this case. Beryl should call the Ghostbusters instead, or maybe an exorcist? On second thought, contacting the Inquisition would be the best choice. No, not that one, the other one that can handle all kind of demonic infestations.

What was that thing anyway, the leviathan? Or a demon of Slaanesh?

[inxsi]

Out of nowhere, an incredible plot twist! However, I doubt whether the police are properly equipped to handle this case. Beryl should call the Ghostbusters instead, or maybe an exorcist? On second thought, contacting the Inquisition would be the best choice. No, not that one, the other one that can handle all kind of demonic infestations.

What was that thing anyway, the leviathan? Or a demon of Slaanesh?

What could possibly give you the idea that the police are not prepared?

[Cthulhu]

What could possibly give you the idea that the police are not prepared?

Well, that thing seems to be pretty resilient, will guns even work on it? They should use a holy sword instead.

[Cthulhu]

Does "Epilogue" mean that this fanfic is now finished? Honestly, it seems to be cut short instead, unless the leviathan and the other dream entity will be featured in the sequel.

[Snoofman]

Alex: The Emperor is coming here?!

Tempo: That is correct, Ambassador. And she is most pleased with your apparent progress.

So Greywind is making an entrance. Can't wait to see what happens next. And curious about Caitlyn's future intentions. Keep it up!

[inxsi]

Does "Epilogue" mean that this fanfic is now finished? Honestly, it seems to be cut short instead, unless the leviathan and the other dream entity will be featured in the sequel.

The fanfic is finished. I believe I warned that pacing would likely be a problem but I am sorry that I did not convey the scope of the story better - I did not anticipate (for some reason) that what to me were side plots would have so much interest though in hind sight it seems obvious that they would Definitely a learning experience for me.

Looking back, I can see why it would feel cut short but this was always the planned end. The sequel will hopefully provide more insight into Caitlyn though I do not believe it will directly feature her. I do not have any immediate plans for the leviathan - his scoffing at the attempts of mere mortals to understand him makes it difficult to decide how they would learn of him. I may come up with a good idea for revealing information on the leviathan, but not much is coming to mind (and would it be a good idea for the Loroi or Humans to learn about such an entity)?

[Cthulhu]

That's what I meant with "integrating into the story" in my earlier post. A lengthy build-up requires a suitably impressive conclusion, otherwise it will break up the overall immersion and storytelling with this discrepancy. If you write a plot line that's not meant to be the primal one, but it manages to outshine the main one in the end, the readers will be confused about their relative significance towards each other.
Frankly, only the leviathan dream sequence had the feeling of a subplot, the other ones were both big enough to compete for the position of the main storyline. This prompted the audience to look forward to a grand conclusion which would unify those parts into one ending, or perhaps two separate, but parallel closures.
Instead, only the leviathan dream had a proper ending, the Caitlyn/Lynne one was left on a cliffhanger and the real-world conclusion felt to be somewhat rushed.

[inxsi]

That's what I meant with "integrating into the story" in my earlier post. A lengthy build-up requires a suitably impressive conclusion, otherwise it will break up the overall immersion and storytelling with this discrepancy. If you write a plot line that's not meant to be the primal one, but it manages to outshine the main one in the end, the readers will be confused about their relative significance towards each other.
Frankly, only the leviathan dream sequence had the feeling of a subplot, the other ones were both big enough to compete for the position of the main storyline. This prompted the audience to look forward to a grand conclusion which would unify those parts into one ending, or perhaps two separate, but parallel closures.
Instead, only the leviathan dream had a proper ending, the Caitlyn/Lynne one was left on a cliffhanger and the real-world conclusion felt to be somewhat rushed.

Thank you for the feedback - I think I understand what you meant earlier better now.

Well, at least I succeeded in having the leviathan as a subplot even if I did not do great on the other two plots. I was hoping for them to have separate, satisfying ends - I suppose I just didn't estimate the ends properly.

I did not think Caitlyn/Lynne was left on a cliffhanger (I thought it might be a bit abrupt), though I will admit I considered a brief epilogue for that to address what Caitlyn does afterward, but I will probably leave it as is. For the real-world - do you mean the epilogue felt rushed? Or the ending before the epilogue?

[inxsi]

Alex: The Emperor is coming here?!

Tempo: That is correct, Ambassador. And she is most pleased with your apparent progress.

So Greywind is making an entrance. Can't wait to see what happens next. And curious about Caitlyn's future intentions. Keep it up!

Sorry - I totally overlooked this comment somehow

Glad you enjoyed it, though this story is officially over. I'm not sure what role Caitlyn will play in future stories - I did think about doing a brief epilogue for her but haven't decided to do so yet. I think the next story will skip ahead in time a few years.

[Cthulhu]

Thank you for the feedback - I think I understand what you meant earlier better now.

Integrating subplots and the details that were introduced there is also important for the rule of "Chekhov's gun", that is, the conservation of detail. So for example, if you have a rifle hanging on the wall in a Bollywood movie, then towards the end, it needs to go off sing and dance with the rest. Basically, the Caitlyn plot line introduced far too many "guns" that were left hanging.

Well, at least I succeeded in having the leviathan as a subplot even if I did not do great on the other two plots. I was hoping for them to have separate, satisfying ends - I suppose I just didn't estimate the ends properly.

I did not think Caitlyn/Lynne was left on a cliffhanger (I thought it might be a bit abrupt), though I will admit I considered a brief epilogue for that to address what Caitlyn does afterward, but I will probably leave it as is.

Likewise, I don't mean the conclusion of the Caitlyn plot line to be lacking, and the cliffhanger might not be that bad of an ending, if you plan for a sequel. The problem is that this character itself, which suddenly evolved and by an order of magnitude, too, did not serve any important purpose, except for giving Beryl some anxiety.

For the real-world - do you mean the epilogue felt rushed? Or the ending before the epilogue?

I think that the real-world one was too abrupt. Instead of a conclusion, you have a small epilogue where Tempo walks in and simply tells everyone, "That's all folks!" She ain't Porky!

[inxsi]

Integrating subplots and the details that were introduced there is also important for the rule of "Chekhov's gun", that is, the conservation of detail. So for example, if you have a rifle hanging on the wall in a Bollywood movie, then towards the end, it needs to go off sing and dance with the rest. Basically, the Caitlyn plot line introduced far too many "guns" that were left hanging.

Likewise, I don't mean the conclusion of the Caitlyn plot line to be lacking, and the cliffhanger might not be that bad of an ending, if you plan for a sequel. The problem is that this character itself, which suddenly evolved and by an order of magnitude, too, did not serve any important purpose, except for giving Beryl some anxiety.

I'm thinking on all of this but do not really have a response yet. But I am wondering how you perceive Caitlyn as having evolved and then not having an important purpose? Is it because the issue was resolved so quickly?

I should also clarify - the sequel I am planning will probably not involve Caitlyn's character directly but may shed some light on her nature and motivations. But maybe it won't manage to do much on that either.

[Dan Wyatt]

Wait!
It's over?????

[Cthulhu]

I'm thinking on all of this but do not really have a response yet. But I am wondering how you perceive Caitlyn as having evolved and then not having an important purpose? Is it because the issue was resolved so quickly?

It's the part where Caitlyn is revealed to be not only an intruder in the dream, but some eldritch monstrosity that has a keen interest in Beryl. Since she does not remember the Leviathan dream sequence, this should make even less sense to her. Yet first, you make such a mysterious character, and then, what role does she play, except for an involuntary SM session? The hostage situation was indeed resolved too quickly. Most importantly, it did not add something of equal importance to the story, at least relative to its apparent significance. This gap between a grand build-up and, let's say, under-usage of this character was rather odd.

The point is that everything in a story has to play a role, otherwise, it shouldn't even be there:
1. Background, where you are simply describing "the stage", the characters and overall setting. Everything that is relevant to the story needs to be introduced, of course, but the trick is not to focus on a particular description too much, just keep everything on roughly the same level relative to its importance.
2. Foreshadowing, something that seems to be a minor detail, but is revealed to be of greater importance later on. Some authors like to make it stand out a tiny bit, but it is not necessary. The point is simply having mentioned it before in order to avoid a deus ex machina.
3. Chekhov's guns, which means things that are clearly highlighted by describing them in greater detail, for example, but without giving away their future involvement into the plot. On the other hand, if you have placed them, you have to use, them, too. This is a common source of mistakes, since authors tend to forget them, or they may place "involuntary" guns that are not meant to be used by drawing too much attention to a minor detail.
4. Red herrings, those are the inversions of the previous point and are meant to draw the readers' attention away from the real "guns" to increase the element of surprise once they are fired. Their importance is a "false" one, but it needs a good reason for the "confusion". It may be attributed to the POV character making a mistake in assessing them, or the attention may be drawn to a particular detail of an item that is actually not relevant, while another detail is.

I should also clarify - the sequel I am planning will probably not involve Caitlyn's character directly but may shed some light on her nature and motivations. But maybe it won't manage to do much on that either.

I'm not pressuring you or anything, it's your writing, after all.