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[Tash]

Or maybe we actually fight much much more than the Loroi? They say their hisory is one of constant bloodshed, but for all we know they might freak out if they read about human history and our nearly nonstop quest to kill the guy in the next country.

Somehow I don't think people who are perfectly willing to commit xenocide and scorch worlds from orbit are going to get squeamish because we, too, like to kill eachother.
They created a DMZ by burning it into the galactic landscape.
They're plenty violent.

[Rosen_Ritter_1]

Somehow I don't think people who are perfectly willing to commit xenocide and scorch worlds from orbit are going to get squeamish because we, too, like to kill eachother.
They created a DMZ by burning it into the galactic landscape.
They're plenty violent.

Well technically it's not a Demilitarized zone. As these last few pages have shown, it's a HIGHLY militarized zone.

The key thing is that it's a no mans land because everything in this area got blown up by the Umiak/Loroi.

[Tash]

Well technically it's not a Demilitarized zone. As these last few pages have shown, it's a HIGHLY militarized zone.

The key thing is that it's a no mans land because everything in this area got blown up by the Umiak/Loroi.

Point.

The main thing is that the Loroi- and the Umiak- are perfectly capable of wrecking entire sections of space. Humans might get some respect for a similar willingness to wreck things, but I don't really see either side being afraid of us.

[fredgiblet]

Half the weight double the speed and you still have double the energy.
Pluss double the effective range.

Nope. Half the mass gives double the acceleration, the greater acceleration decreases the amount of time the slug is accelerating (since the barrel length isn't being increased) so the end result is far less than double the muzzle velocity.

[fredgiblet]

Also I assume you reduce your maximal muzzle velocity by increasing round size. I'm not well versed in electrical engineering, but I have a hunch that the relationship between mass and electrical energy required to accelerate it to a given speed isn't linear (as with rocket fuel and ship speed). For anyone who may know, is that true?

The higher the velocity you are shooting for the lower the efficiency is going to be. Specifics would require actual designs which are far beyond anything we could actually produce, so it's impossible to say exactly how the efficiency would drop, but it would drop, probably quickly.

[Grayhome]

In response to Tash's comment

Though terror has proven an effective solution in the subjugation of many populations for extended periods, time and time again we see throughout history that the moment those subjected populations catch even a scent of weakness in their oppressors they bear their fangs and strike. I fear the Loroi will soon be seeing this lesson played out on a massive scale as all the misery and abuse they have visited upon their client species returns to haunt them later on in the story (casts gaze towards Mannadi space).

There are also the morale ramifications to consider when your entire view of gaining "respect" involves who's holding the biggest stick with the most heads impaled upon it. I very much doubt that Arioch will be taking that approach when dealing with Humanity, for which I am very thankful as too many Science Fiction stories these days play out the xenophobic stereotype. I expect diplomacy and negotiation will play a major roll in Humanity earning respect on the galactic stage, not fear.

Now someone draw us a picture of "The Guardian" Jardin in an animal skin clutching a pointy stick with alien heads impaled upon it. It will amuse us!

[Mjolnir]

Half the weight double the speed and you still have double the energy.
Pluss double the effective range.

Nope. Half the mass gives double the acceleration, the greater acceleration decreases the amount of time the slug is accelerating (since the barrel length isn't being increased) so the end result is far less than double the muzzle velocity.

And given the same acceleration distance and projectile energy, higher velocity shots will require higher peak power, and will also come with greater losses...more energy input needed to achieve the same projectile energy, more waste heat to dispose of. Given the need to fit the whole system in a mobile ship, the limitations of electromagnetic acceleration, and the nature of the available targets, it's not unreasonable that they've optimized for relatively large projectiles at lowish velocities.

There's also the possibility that the projectiles aren't purely ballistic shots, but have some capacity for maneuvering to fine tune their trajectory and compensate to some degree for their target's attempts to evade...this would be easier with larger projectiles and lower accelerations, an increase in velocity with a move to purely ballistic projectiles might lead to a reduction in hit rate in the scenarios that were typical prior to contact with Loroi/Umiak.

[Tash]

In response to Tash's comment

Though terror has proven an effective solution in the subjugation of many populations for extended periods, time and time again we see throughout history that the moment those subjected populations catch even a scent of weakness in their oppressors they bear their fangs and strike. I fear the Loroi will soon be seeing this lesson played out on a massive scale as all the misery and abuse they have visited upon their client species returns to haunt them later on in the story (casts gaze towards Mannadi space).

Possibly, but there is a 'critical mass' of rule through fear; if your enemy nearly destroyed you once, would you want to risk them completing the job? Likely not.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that the Loroi treated enemies like Turians do; by making them incapable of ever being a threat again.

There are also the morale ramifications to consider when your entire view of gaining "respect" involves who's holding the biggest stick with the most heads impaled upon it. I very much doubt that Arioch will be taking that approach when dealing with Humanity, for which I am very thankful as too many Science Fiction stories these days play out the xenophobic stereotype. I expect diplomacy and negotiation will play a major roll in Humanity earning respect on the galactic stage, not fear.

That's not xenophobic; that's a perfectly valid view of a militaristic species, respect for one's prowess or willingness to do anything for victory.
I didn't say that diplomacy is irrelevant; it's entirely possible that mankind's ability to negotiate will play a crucial role for everyone involved...but mankind's ability to fight, even despite a crippling tech gap, could gain them credibility, at least with the Loroi. It's a relatable quality.

Now someone draw us a picture of "The Guardian" Jardin in an animal skin clutching a pointy stick with alien heads impaled upon it. It will amuse us!

Seconded.

[captainsmirk]

I doubt the Mannadi are going to prove much of a problem, they've been quaratined for the better part of 600 years which I would take to mean they have no access to the advanced ships or construction facilities they would require to be a threat. Also the Loroi are only stretched thin at the front because they are building up their reserve, a fleet which could be used to help crush any rebellion, probably before the Umiak would learn of it and be able to take advantage (based on the means of long range communication they may possibly never learn of it).

Also as Arioch has stated the Loroi are almost purpose built for crushing resistance within an occupied territory, being telepathic and combining the capabilities of the Mizol and Teidar.

The Arekka and Nissek however....

[BattleRaptor]

fredgiblet
The muzzle velocity was listed, not acceleration for terran mass drivers.
Double Velocity and you quadruple the KE.


Just a point.
Terrans are Terraforming basicly any world they come across they think can be usefull.

Meanwhile the Loroi and Umiak are rendering worlds barren and no mention is made of any attempt or ablity of them to terraform.
Maybe Alex will get truce agreement where man gets all the worlds of the deadzone to act as a buffer between the Loroi and Umiak.
Both the Loroi and Umiak may see those worlds as useless and may require nothing in exchange from humanity.... infact if Alex is crafty he could get them both to commit resources and technology to help man create the buffer zone due to the "DRAIN" on resources such dead worlds would be.

[Rosen_Ritter_1]

fredgiblet
The muzzle velocity was listed, not acceleration for terran mass drivers.
Double Velocity and you quadruple the KE.


Just a point.
Terrans are Terraforming basicly any world they come across they think can be usefull.

Meanwhile the Loroi and Umiak are rendering worlds barren and no mention is made of any attempt or ablity of them to terraform.
Maybe Alex will get truce agreement where man gets all the worlds of the deadzone to act as a buffer between the Loroi and Umiak.
Both the Loroi and Umiak may see those worlds as useless and may require nothing in exchange from humanity.... infact if Alex is crafty he could get them both to commit resources and technology to help man create the buffer zone due to the "DRAIN" on resources such dead worlds would be.

this requires in getting the Umiak/Loroi to agree to a truce.

[CptWinters]

And what's so implausible about that?

[Rosen_Ritter_1]

And what's so implausible about that?

Because this is what they're planning for each other right now.

[Tash]

Yeah, this has become a struggle to the death.

I think, to bring a less exact science into it, that it's a case of alien psychology(Correct me if I'm wrong, I only have the comic and Insider to go off of).

Umiak have no overriding self interest.
Their species must dominate all others in order to avoid ever reverting back to their original state- when they were outcast and downtrodden by a more 'advanced' civilisation- and they don't care how many of their own die to achieve this goal.
For them, it's either victory or death; they're a Darwinian engine of war.

For the Loroi, they are a warlike people by nature; their history is one as riddled with conflict as our own, maybe moreso.
They naturally have a sense of superiority due to their prowess and, from their view, their civilisation.
They likely view things the same way, with the addition that they believe- probably rightly- that the Umiak are incapable of surrender, so the Umiak's own view is projected onto the Loroi, as well. The Loroi can win or the Loroi can die.

It seems highly unlikely that an equitable peace could ever be brokered between them; Umiak would continue to see the Loroi as a threat to their existence, and Loroi would deeply resent the occupation of their worlds.
Revanchism, it seems, is not a uniquely human concept.

[Voitan]

It sounds like people are expecting humanity to be the hero of the story, rather than Alex.

Then check your ears, no one is saying humanity is going to make a difference in the war effort in the story.

It's been known for a while Arioch said such development is beyond the story in Outsider currently.

Everyone here is just speculating on what could happen given enough time.

[fredgiblet]

fredgiblet
The muzzle velocity was listed, not acceleration for terran mass drivers.

...And?

[BattleRaptor]

You said increasing speed doesnt increase energy, then made a comment about acceleration.

You arguing with physics then?

Or are you arguing its impossible to make railguns able to project something that fast?
Then I would like to point out small projectiles have been accelerated to over 30kms in real life.

[Rosen_Ritter_1]

It sounds like people are expecting humanity to be the hero of the story, rather than Alex.

Then check your ears, no one is saying humanity is going to make a difference in the war effort in the story.

It's been known for a while Arioch said such development is beyond the story in Outsider currently.

Everyone here is just speculating on what could happen given enough time.

One's also got to also consider then, that Loroi society in the next few decades is going to also be radically more different than it was centuries prior. Before the war Loroi society was majority centennials. War casualties and lifting of breeding restrictions has resulted in a massive demographic shift where there are now young than old. Even more dramatically, the newest generation didn't grow up under relatively assured Loroi dominance. They grew up in the middle of an apocalyptic war for survival challenging everything about Loroi society. You can't presume that development trends from the last half millennium will stick with these new war generations.

Maybe humanity could have outpaced the complacent previous generation over time. But what about this new one that's grown up knowing nothing but war? Who might not pay much heed to the cultural barriers of communication since they interfere in weapons R&D. Who might never go back to the old breeding restrictions and want to expand Loroi numbers as much as possible.


And you know what? I like that. I like having a situation where humanities position feels precarious. Where we CAN'T just jump ahead of everything by authorial fiat. Where we survive by adjusting to the situation and paying attention to the nitty gritty details.

[BattleRaptor]

Then humans are screwed ;P
Since Loroi are superior to humans in everything BUT Social structure and physical strength.
They seem smarter
They have telepathic and telekintic abilities
They require far less food.
They can live on larger extremes of hot or cold worlds
70% female breeding rapidly will result in overpopulation and need to expand.. humans traped in a culdesac will sooner or later get wiped out so the Loroi can populate our worlds.

Humanity is screwed if there is a fundermental shift in Loroi culture.

[fredgiblet]

You said increasing speed doesnt increase energy

No, I didn't. At all.

then made a comment about acceleration.

You stated that halving mass would double speed, this is false, halving mass would double acceleration. However, increased acceleration will reduce the amount of time that the slug is accelerating (same barrel length + faster slug = less time in the barrel).