[Fan Fiction] Looking forward to the Mirror (Completed)

[Arioch]

That comment is so inane I'm... I'm having trouble formatting a calm and rational reply to it.

Calm down. There is no excuse for personal insults here.

[Razor One]

Perhaps it's the medication talking, but I'm having a lot of trouble trying to parse Grayhome's point.

As far as I understand it, his point is:

They brought telekinetics to a diplomatic meeting. Telekinetics = Weapons, therefore, they're in violation of something or other that entitles humanity to massive concessions for reasons.

The problem with his point is twofold as I see it.

The first being that Telekinetics being weapons that should be barred from any conference. I don't see how they are any different from say, a martial artist who can kill with his bare hands. You cannot functionally disarm them in any fashion whatsoever. Would a diplomat or consultant be barred from a conference or embassy meeting because their martial artist training makes their bare hands deadly weapons? Would an alien who had a toxic physiology be barred because they are literally made of poison?

The second flaw is that the Loroi are violating some kind of protocol that entitles humanity to enormous concessions. I'm not seeing how this even works. This is a first contact scenario, the only protocols in place are the one's you bring with you before you can sit down and work out what works for both parties before further and more detailed negotiations can begin. The Loroi, for their part, have more experience in these matters and are following their handbook reasonably well given the circumstances. The humans are in no position to ask for massive concessions. If they have issues with telekinetics being in their presence, that's protocol they establish here and now for later and more productive negotiations. The group of Loroi present cannot accede to such huge concessions since that's far above authority to give, and the humans cannot extract these concessions diplomatically, militarily or otherwise. Such concessions would be entirely dependent on the goodwill of the Loroi, something they may not be willing to give since you've threatened to join their mortal enemies while making enormous demands of them over what amounts to a diplomatic faux pas at worst.

There are also major flaws in threatening to join the Loroi's mortal enemies. It antagonises the Loroi when you're only out for first contact. It weakens your bargaining position by making you look fickle, greedy, and reactionary. It sours future relations if you do side with them, and if you don't, you get to be known as the one who hastened humanity joining what essentially amounts to a slave empire.

No, a good diplomat won't threaten anything. A good diplomat would imply, hypothetically speaking, that under a certain scenario, some actions are being considered over others and allow their opposite number to stress about where you're going to jump. There's no point in making a threat. Threats are empty and worthless. Promises are what matter. The only scenario in which humanity should threaten to join the Umiak is if they've already decided to do so and want to play the Loroi for chumps.

[Grayhome]

Reading through the comments, responses all seem to excuse all Loroi behavior. Again. Welp, just goes to show how understanding and open minded people can be when pretty girls are concerned.

*sigh*

I can only imagine how a day at the UN would go if Russia and China were discovered to have developed telepathic/psychokinetic diplomats and were sending them to the crowded UN treaty meetings to determine trade and territorial rights. I'm sure just because they are a "superpower" such an action would just be universally forgiven, and no other nation would want to shift towards the western sphere of influence in response. Oh and if they said "we can't telepathically read humans" that would be taken on faith, what reason would China and Russia have to lie?

The Loroi are aliens about which humanity knows nothing. Nothing. At all. Believing anything the Loroi say on faith, without any evidence to back it up is not only unprofessionally dangerous, it is silly. I can see numerous flaws with the "test" earlier to demonstrate that humanity is immune to Telepathy. That touching thing of a marine is a very, very poor example of a well thought out and controlled test, the alien in question could very easily have been not trying to read the marines mind in the first place so as to continue to lull the human delegation into a sense of false security while they perform telepathic surgery on their brains for all the humans know. Too many variables have been taken on faith for this relationship to continue on such friendly terms. If I was a crewmember of the Terran vessel in this situation I would be seriously examining the notion of whether my commander had been compromised by insidious alien influence at this point, he has been... astoundingly forgiving and understanding thus far in the story.

The humans would be very suspicious of the Loroi responses so far, their rampant paranoia and outright hostility are very much out of place. I would go so far as to say that the Loroi have thus far acted in exactly the wrong manner, 100% of the time, and the human captain should be seriously considering leaving the Loroi to their fate.

Oh, and to everyone who said that the Loroi could just murder the humans and destroy their ship? I would recommend they double check the Insider pages regarding Terran/Loroi laser batteries, Terran mass driver batteries and Terran vessels. As far as I can determine the damaged Loroi vessel is completely at the Human's mercy in this scenario. So the charming comments I have been receiving that the Humans had better help the Loroi or their going to get murdered is not an option here.

[dragoongfa]

Reading through the comments, responses all seem to excuse all Loroi behavior. Again. Welp, just goes to show how understanding and open minded people can be when pretty girls are concerned.

*sigh*

I can only imagine how a day at the UN would go if Russia and China were discovered to have developed telepathic/psychokinetic diplomats and were sending them to the crowded UN treaty meetings to determine trade and territorial rights. I'm sure just because they are a "superpower" such an action would just be universally forgiven, and no other nation would want to shift towards the western sphere of influence in response. Oh and if they said "we can't telepathically read humans" that would be taken on faith, what reason would China and Russia have to lie?

The problem is that the Loroi are naturally telepathic and they can't do anything to shut their abilities down. Someone will have to go to extreme lengths in order to avoid contact with them. Like the Historians do with their isolationism and AI ambassadors. The scenario you mention with Russia and China is extremely farfetched and not the same thing for the obvious reason that humans are not natural telepaths.

Diplomatic relations are based on Good faith and actions that promote good faith. In your scenario the Human nations you mention would be in severe breach of good faith. The Loroi can't do anything about their telepathy and their entire diplomatic corps has had to deal with mistrust for as long as they have been in contact with aliens. In their experience they have to showcase their telepathic abilities immediately upon first contact something that they did in this case, 3 to 4 hours have passed since the moment of first contact with the human marines. If this isn't an immediate attempt to be up front and honest with someone on good faith I don't know what is.

With your logic no species should come even close to them due to their telepathy alone which is their true game breaker, not their telekinesis.

The Loroi are aliens about which humanity knows nothing. Nothing. At all. Believing anything the Loroi say on faith, without any evidence to back it up is not only unprofessionally dangerous, it is silly. I can see numerous flaws with the "test" earlier to demonstrate that humanity is immune to Telepathy. That touching thing of a marine is a very, very poor example of a well thought out and controlled test, the alien in question could very easily have been not trying to read the marines mind in the first place so as to continue to lull the human delegation into a sense of false security while they perform telepathic surgery on their brains for all the humans know. Too many variables have been taken on faith for this relationship to continue on such friendly terms. If I was a crewmember of the Terran vessel in this situation I would be seriously examining the notion of whether my commander had been compromised by insidious alien influence at this point, he has been... astoundingly forgiving and understanding thus far in the story.

The humans would be very suspicious of the Loroi responses so far, their rampant paranoia and outright hostility are very much out of place. I would go so far as to say that the Loroi have thus far acted in exactly the wrong manner, 100% of the time, and the human captain should be seriously considering leaving the Loroi to their fate.

All of the above is something that the humans are certainly thinking but they have their orders and they will act accordingly. They have been briefed on what to be wary for if they came across the Loroi for whom they knew nothing. Remember the Captain's response "We are seeing the same thing as you do?" and Lieutenant Allerberger's "joke about females in distress"? They were briefed from their respective superiors about this in order to have those questions and reactions. They have a 'cut all connections with Loroi' protocol but they will only act upon it only with solid evidence that the Loroi are acting on bad faith and are somehow tricking and controlling them with telepathy. There is currently a ship filled with the some of the smartest people of the scout corps looking through everything they have seen so far while questioning their own sanity. The captain's stupid inquiry about what the marine was thinking? His way of venting some stress from himself and the bridge.

Minor Spoilers

SpoilerShow

Let's say that for now the first thing the returning marines with go through, especially Gomez and Westwood, will be to go in the ships medical scanner and have their whole bodies scanned, with extra attention to their brain functions, which will be compared to their routine exams which marines go through regularly for reasons that will be covered in a later chapter. If anything is off, beyond the perfectly healed wound, there will be legitimate questions of Loroi honesty.

The Humans are not fools but they have their orders and can only act on evidence that the Loroi are using their telepathy against them. Until such evidence are in front of them they will have to assume that the Loroi are acting on good faith which all diplomatic relationships run on.

Oh, and to everyone who said that the Loroi could just murder the humans and destroy their ship? I would recommend they double check the Insider pages regarding Terran/Loroi laser batteries, Terran mass driver batteries and Terran vessels. As far as I can determine the damaged Loroi vessel is completely at the Human's mercy in this scenario. So the charming comments I have been receiving that the Humans had better help the Loroi or their going to get murdered is not an option here.

This Loroi ship is at the human mercy, without much power and with its warhead launcher inoperable. The fleet that this warship belongs to is part of a vast armada that has committed TWO genocides before. This armada is something that the humans don't want to piss off, especially if their immunity from sensing is true. Humanity wants to be in the good graces of that armada and helping one of their stranded ships is a perfect opportunity for that.

[Grayhome]

Dude. Dude. They stabbed a diplomat. Let it go. They're not interested in being "friends". They want slaves or corpses.

Then they brought a loaded.

Concealed.

Psychic Gun.

To a diplomatic meeting.

The Loroi don't have to turn off their telepathy, they just need to keep their psychokinetic troops out of the conference room.

I would also ask, on a personal note that the Loroi restrain themselves from stabbing future human diplomats but I think that might be a hard bargain to make, what with the whole "xenocidal" thing the Loroi apparently have going on, that everyone in the thread seems to be totally fine with and supportive of.

[NuclearIceCream]

The only point Grayhome might be able to make is that the Loroi knowingly used telekinetic guards for the meeting and that the diplomat is still visibly armed with an amplifier. To say that no telekinetic can attend a diplomatic meeting just because they were born that way is stupid.

He is correct in that the Loroi shouldn't have used Teidar guards because it is pointless dickwaving in a situation that the currently stranded loroi have no means of truly backing up.

He is correct in that the diplomat should have removed her amp because that would be like a diplomat bringing say a power fist to the meeting. True, it only enhances preexisting abilities that were already lethal. But it still amplifies to a point above and beyond. But perhaps more importantly; it is a VISIBLE[/u][/i] symbol of her being armed.

[dragoongfa]

Dude. Dude. They stabbed a diplomat. Let it go. They're not interested in being "friends". They want slaves or corpses.

A Soroin Passet, which is the Loroi equivalent of the last wheel of the carriage, did that while disobeying direct orders from her superior officer (in this case Teidar Sezon Razormist). This happened during an abnormally stressful situation against an unknown and armed alien that she couldn't fully perceive both for the limited lighting and his natural immunity to telepathy.

The one she stubbed had not yet identified himself as a diplomat, he was armed and far more bulkier than she was. Furthermore to be considered a diplomat and be treated as such you must first be recognized as such by an official who has the right to do so. In this case Mizol Torrimor Shadowcloud, if she wasn't present that duty would fall on the captain of Silverspear, Soroin Torret Darkwing who for all intents and purposes was psychologically unfit for command and had to be telepathically bullied so she would consent to medical treatment for her wounds.

Then they brought a loaded.

Concealed.

Psychic Gun.

To a diplomatic meeting.

The Loroi don't have to turn off their telepathy, they just need to keep their psychokinetic troops out of the conference room.

The Teidar are not in the conference room, they are outside guarding the door because frankly the crew is still tense and doesn't fully trust the Mizol to do the right thing. Shadowcloud is a Mizol and she is primarily a combat oriented intelligence specialist; she is the kind of officer who leads the Loroi equivalent of SEAL team six. The Teidar assigned to her as her bodyguards are not an honor guard and are not pushovers; Razormist and Thunderspear have seen combat under her command while Longblade is the new fish there to replace a combat loss.

In a perfect situation she would have let an other Mizol take the reigns, even a novice, while providing advise via telepathy. The only faux pas from her part is her amplifier but she did so intentionally and this will be covered in the next part.

I would also ask, on a personal note that the Loroi restrain themselves from stabbing future human diplomats but I think that might be a hard bargain to make, what with the whole "xenocidal" thing the Loroi apparently have going on, that everyone in the thread seems to be totally fine with and supportive of.

I think that I have covered the xenocidal thing adequately in the story. The humans are terrified of the Loroi, they don't like them and they certainly don't approve of the Mannadi and Tithric genocides but they don't have a choice in the matter at hand but to pursue contact with Loroi because they know that the Loroi WILL DO THE SAME to humanity if humanity allies itself with the Umiak.

Shadowcloud knows how much these genocides hurt the Loroi because she regularly conducts intelligence missions and interrogates aliens. She knows that a lot of Aliens are terrified of the Loroi and knows that if the Loroi do something like that again then even their allies will see the Umiak as the lesser evil.

[Siber]

I'm not a diplomat of any stripe, but I would think that one wants to be careful about taking offense to the meaning of actions diplomats of an entirely alien and unknown culture take. For all the humans know, coming to a diplomatic meeting unarmed could be a sign of disrespect to the Loroi. Considering that these Loroi have gone out of their way to reveal their abilities and armament in a not directly threatening manner, reacting as if they were being malicious in this case only really makes sense if one is already looking for a reason to drive a wedge between humanity and the Loroi. At the very least there should be some calm, rational exploration of intent and context before dropping any ultimatums.

[Razor One]

Reading through the comments, responses all seem to excuse all Loroi behavior. Again. Welp, just goes to show how understanding and open minded people can be when pretty girls are concerned.

If a giant spider appeared on a US warship in wartime during a battle for survival, the response would be much the same. No human was expecting the race of telepathic xenocidal aliens to have a blind spot to our species, and in light of that cockups like stabbing or shooting at the unidentified intruder are acceptable and understandable.

I'm going to ignore your attempt to paint anyone who disagrees with you as a horny teenager. The only response it merits requires the usage of intransitive verbs.

I can only imagine how a day at the UN would go if Russia and China were discovered to have developed telepathic/psychokinetic diplomats and were sending them to the crowded UN treaty meetings to determine trade and territorial rights. I'm sure just because they are a "superpower" such an action would just be universally forgiven, and no other nation would want to shift towards the western sphere of influence in response. Oh and if they said "we can't telepathically read humans" that would be taken on faith, what reason would China and Russia have to lie?

Your analogy is bad and you should feel bad.

Russia and China have been known entities for centuries, even if the current political makeups are more recent. They have well established diplomatic protocols in place, albeit ones that don't cover telepaths. Bringing telepaths and telekinetics to diplomatic meetings is a complete non sequitur, humanity knows the Loroi are telepathic. They can well ascertain that the Loroi are on the level regarding humans telepathic immunity because the way the Loroi have acted are consistent with that explanation. Otherwise, why stab a guy and then do their damnedest to play nice? Some Machiavellian scheme? And to what end?

Finally, ambassadors and diplomats are spied on all the time. Their offices are bugged, their computers riddled with malware, their transmissions tapped. If there was a way to rifle through their thoughts, you're damn certain any nation on Earth would do it.

The only response China and Russia would get would be some cold shouldering diplomatically until countermeasures are developed and backhanded compliments from the spook community for bringing something so revolutionary to the spying game and then cocking it up like amateurs.

The Loroi are aliens about which humanity knows nothing. Nothing. At all. Believing anything the Loroi say on faith, without any evidence to back it up is not only unprofessionally dangerous, it is silly. I can see numerous flaws with the "test" earlier to demonstrate that humanity is immune to Telepathy. That touching thing of a marine is a very, very poor example of a well thought out and controlled test, the alien in question could very easily have been not trying to read the marines mind in the first place so as to continue to lull the human delegation into a sense of false security while they perform telepathic surgery on their brains for all the humans know. Too many variables have been taken on faith for this relationship to continue on such friendly terms. If I was a crewmember of the Terran vessel in this situation I would be seriously examining the notion of whether my commander had been compromised by insidious alien influence at this point, he has been... astoundingly forgiving and understanding thus far in the story.

Humanity is not completely ignorant. Only mostly so.

They know the Loroi are telepathic. The Orgus told them. They also know the Loroi are xenocidal. The Orgus also told them that. They know the Loroi language, also via the Orgus. They've also seen firsthand the results of what happens when you piss the Loroi off. If you were a crewmember on the Matyavev, you're not thinking, "My CO is being way too nice to these aliens", you're thinking "If we cock this up this'll be Sol five years from now". Forgiveness and understanding is a necessary diplomatic tool to avoid being wiped out by powerful xenocidal aliens.

As for the telepathic test, **shrug**, trust but verify, same as its always been. There's no reasonable explanation why the Loroi would try to fake the humans out like that, especially after they reacted consistently with that explanation previously. Machiavellian scheming is all well and good but they need a reason to do it. Humans are an unknown, but there lies the conundrum. If the Loroi could read the humans, scheming would be unnecessary, and if they can't, then their behaviour does not follow.

The humans would be very suspicious of the Loroi responses so far, their rampant paranoia and outright hostility are very much out of place. I would go so far as to say that the Loroi have thus far acted in exactly the wrong manner, 100% of the time, and the human captain should be seriously considering leaving the Loroi to their fate.

The Loroi can't read humans. They made this clear earlier in the story. Even if you don't trust them at their word, their actions and responses back it up. Humans are to the Loroi as Xenomorphs are to humans. If one popped out of a vent one day and said "Cheerio dear chap it seems you're in a spot of bother!" I think the response would be largely the same, possibly with more shooting than stabbing though.

For something a bit more relatable though, imagine you're stuck on the side of the road and see a group of youths with balaclavas on their heads approaching you. Your first instinct is to try and call the cops. Day, night, right side of town or wrong. Because the balaclava hides the face and identity of the person you're dealing with, you know that the only thing they can be up to is no good and the likely response to seeing someone in need of help is to prey on them. Imagine your surprise when the balaclava troop offer you full roadside assistance. You'd be waiting for the other shoe to drop the entire time. That's what the Loroi are going through. They're acting entirely consistently with the facts at hand. Humans being immune to their telepathy is the equivalent of hiding your face and identity when dealing with others. Even if you are benevolent, especially if you're benevolent, you are suspect. Always.

Oh, and to everyone who said that the Loroi could just murder the humans and destroy their ship? I would recommend they double check the Insider pages regarding Terran/Loroi laser batteries, Terran mass driver batteries and Terran vessels. As far as I can determine the damaged Loroi vessel is completely at the Human's mercy in this scenario. So the charming comments I have been receiving that the Humans had better help the Loroi or their going to get murdered is not an option here.

Ah yes, because the humans winning one single engagement against a helpless foe will have no negative consequences whatsoever. Nobody was talking about the immediate situation, they were talking about the consequences of screwing up first contact. See Babylon 5's Earth-Minbari war for a good example of what happens when you fight an enemy that outclasses you on every level.

Dude. Dude. They stabbed a diplomat. Let it go. They're not interested in being "friends". They want slaves or corpses.

Then they brought a loaded.

Concealed.

Psychic Gun.

To a diplomatic meeting.

It's not a diplomatic meeting. It's a first contact. This is where you establish protocols necessary for future diplomatic contact. The person they stabbed was a marine and not a diplomat. He did not have diplomatic immunity. You need to establish diplomatic immunity and it must be granted. He was an unidentified and unknown intruder on their vessel.

The only person qualified to make sure this entire meeting doesn't go completely tits up also qualifies as your oft vaunted psychic weapon. You can't physically separate the person from the weapon. They're acting openly and honestly, with a necessary demonstration to show the humans what's what.

If ever there was a situation where a person could not be separated from a weapon and that person was the only one qualified to handle the situation, then both sides would knuckle under and accept it even if they wouldn't like it. First contact is where you setup the protocols for future diplomatic contact. If the humans have their knickers in a twist about telekinetics, then all they have to do is stipulate that telekinetics are barred from the conference room and ask them to provide a negotiator who is both not telekinetic and qualified to handle negotiations, something the Loroi could easily provide at a later date but not in the situation at hand.

I would also ask, on a personal note that the Loroi restrain themselves from stabbing future human diplomats but I think that might be a hard bargain to make, what with the whole "xenocidal" thing the Loroi apparently have going on, that everyone in the thread seems to be totally fine with and supportive of.

For someone who keeps stressing about how undiplomatic the Loroi are acting, the behaviour you advocate is just as bad. The humans are here to say hello, introduce themselves, get some protocols up, and direct the Loroi to the real diplomats. They're not in a position to make the big decisions. What they are in a position to is leverage the situation so that they have additional bargaining chips for the diplomats to work with. It's all about having options. Humans need to choose a side in the war. They want to pick a winner. You don't risk pissing anyone off until you can make that determination, because you don't want your name associated with the long line of idiots on the road to ruin.

Oh, and on a personal note, do try making your points without characterising your opponents as being horny teenage boys or supportive of genocide. Your consistent ad hominem damages any sympathy to your position, actively turns people against you, and is destroying your credibility. If you can't disagree with someone without casting aspersions against them, I'm going to ask that you let matter drop as a favour to yourself, lest you get reported again.

[Grayhome]

So just reading through the responses, dragonfa it's your story, your rules but the human commander has the forgiveness and understanding of a superhuman. Give that man a medal.

Razor One! You are... kind of all over the place, nitpicking here and there, being intellectually dishonest in places from time to time, apparently not reading posts I was responding to, so I am just going to make a point or two from your more memorable comments.

Oh, and on a personal note, do try making your points without characterising your opponents as being horny teenage boys or supportive of genocide. Your consistent ad hominem damages any sympathy to your position, actively turns people against you, and is destroying your credibility. If you can't disagree with someone without casting aspersions against them, I'm going to ask that you let matter drop as a favour to yourself, lest you get reported again.

*Sigh*

You know as well as I that a good deal of this forum is dedicated to making sexual comments on the Loroi and a good chunk of art on the Insider (fanart and otherwise) is highly sexual in nature, many Loroi women being depicted in their underwear. Your refusal to acknowledge that, and your implication of the contrary is disappointing. Forum commentators have outright said that the Loroi look cute, and that they feel a strong urge to help them because they look cute.

And as for my "characterizations" of those supporting the Loroi equaling the support of xenocide, that is the entire preface of the story RazorOne. Whoever humanity joins will be, by definition, receiving the entirety of the human species support for their faction's planned xenocide of the opposing faction. That's what makes the story so interesting, both factions are playing for keeps.

If you think reporting me for making those points is unfair or rude than please by all means, go ahead. Given that a large number of comments I read on this forum concern themselves with Loroi sexuality and attractiveness; as well as the very clear honesty of both the Loroi and the Umiak that they are willing to do whatever it takes to win this conflict, including xenocide, I think my points are valid and your threat is out of place.

See Babylon 5's Earth-Minbari war for a good example of what happens when you fight an enemy that outclasses you on every level.

And I will see your fictional conflict and raise you the Vietnam and the American Revolutionary War. RazorOne I know it's a fictional sci-fi fan fiction but you will do your points more credit by using example from real life and not from fiction. There are conflicts throughout human history that went well for the higher TL faction, and conflicts in which the opposite is also true.



A sarcastic remark I made:

I would also ask, on a personal note that the Loroi restrain themselves from stabbing future human diplomats

RazorOne's response:

For someone who keeps stressing about how undiplomatic the Loroi are acting, the behaviour you advocate is just as bad.

I'm going to assume that your response was to another section of my comment, I think. I don't really understand it. I might be misreading it maybe. Please reread the comments I am responding to before reading mine.

It's not a diplomatic meeting. It's a first contact. This is where you establish protocols necessary for future diplomatic contact. The person they stabbed was a marine and not a diplomat. He did not have diplomatic immunity. You need to establish diplomatic immunity and it must be granted. He was an unidentified and unknown intruder on their vessel.

The only person qualified to make sure this entire meeting doesn't go completely tits up also qualifies as your oft vaunted psychic weapon. You can't physically separate the person from the weapon. They're acting openly and honestly, with a necessary demonstration to show the humans what's what.

If ever there was a situation where a person could not be separated from a weapon and that person was the only one qualified to handle the situation, then both sides would knuckle under and accept it even if they wouldn't like it. First contact is where you setup the protocols for future diplomatic contact. If the humans have their knickers in a twist about telekinetics, then all they have to do is stipulate that telekinetics are barred from the conference room and ask them to provide a negotiator who is both not telekinetic and qualified to handle negotiations, something the Loroi could easily provide at a later date but not in the situation at hand.

Hmm, ok. You make a fair point, I will agree with that.

As for NuclearIceCream's response:

The only point Grayhome might be able to make is that the Loroi knowingly used telekinetic guards for the meeting and that the diplomat is still visibly armed with an amplifier. To say that no telekinetic can attend a diplomatic meeting just because they were born that way is stupid.

He is correct in that the Loroi shouldn't have used Teidar guards because it is pointless dickwaving in a situation that the currently stranded loroi have no means of truly backing up.

He is correct in that the diplomat should have removed her amp because that would be like a diplomat bringing say a power fist to the meeting. True, it only enhances preexisting abilities that were already lethal. But it still amplifies to a point above and beyond. But perhaps more importantly; it is a VISIBLE[/u][/i] symbol of her being armed.

I... am confused. You seem to agree and disagree with me on the same point. You seem to say that psychokinetics is invisible (which is bad) but that the psi-amps the Loroi are wearing are visible (so that makes it ok... somehow) but it's still needless dickwaving? So by that line of logic bringing a loaded gun to a diplomatic meeting would be ok because everyone can see the gun, it's just that the bullets (once fired) move faster than the human eye can follow so that makes it bad again-and you have lost me I do not understand your point.

Also please keep in mind that Psychokinetic abilities can go through walls with zero resistance.

Going to supper, I will respond to the rest later, if I have time and do not forget.

[Username]

*Heats up Popcorn*

Some people like being inflammatory on the internet, it sparks intense thoughts and is fun to read. I think this forum is pretty sheltered when it comes to people yelling and being harsh with material or literature. That's why when the occasional loud or inflammatory post come along people get super defensive and offended. It's important to remember that being anon is a give and take situation, if you let the words you read or write too close to your emotions then you have a bad time.

Personally I would have shot that Loroi ship to pieces and run home with the tech booty

On that note the humans clearly are the ones with the fully functional ship, that the Loroi have been stand-offish and stuck-up is painfully accurate.
Though I think the Humans should have been a lot more assertive.

[Grayhome]

... well Username, you just took all the wind out of my sails.

I came back from supper ready to deconstruct another series of objections to my previous post, but your frank and logical approach to the situation has put me at a loss to words, other than well said.

[Argron]

*Heats up Popcorn*

Some people like being inflammatory on the internet, it sparks intense thoughts and is fun to read. I think this forum is pretty sheltered when it comes to people yelling and being harsh with material or literature. That's why when the occasional loud or inflammatory post come along people get super defensive and offended. It's important to remember that being anon is a give and take situation, if you let the words you read or write too close to your emotions then you have a bad time.

Personally I would have shot that Loroi ship to pieces and run home with the tech booty

On that note the humans clearly are the ones with the fully functional ship, that the Loroi have been stand-offish and stuck-up is painfully accurate.
Though I think the Humans should have been a lot more assertive.

I've been reading and writing in forums for years and developed a thick skin, and while there's always some idiot that wants to stir the pot, I've never seen such an unwarranted attack out of the blue like that before just for disagreeing, on a topic that wasn't even controversial. On my first day as a poster, even. Except from forums for online games, but those are known for being incredibly toxic places anyway.
There was no fun involved, there wasn't room to get defensive as I was being explicitly and knowingly being offended, and it wasn't possible to write too close to my emotions since by the first answer I was already being fully flamed lol
Forums need to stop that kind of behaviour or they eventually go the way of the dodo. And it did, which was nice.

I think the human leaders and the captain of the ship realize that securing the correct alliance is a thousand times more valuable than whatever tech they may find on that ship considering how powerful both the Loroi and Umiak factions are, and it doesn't get any better as far as first contacts go than saving a ship in distress of the nation you want to contact, well, maybe putting out a fire on an orphanage with a kitten & puppy shelter in the lower floor. Also, if humans become allies to one of the powers, it would be in both sides interest to raise humanity's tech level as much as possible anyway so that looting would have been pointless.

They may have behaved as you say -except the diplomat-, but they were under rather unfortunate circumstances for being great hosts. I found it rather realistic and in line with how the real world military would have reacted in such a situation, from both sides.

[Razor One]

Your quotes are a bit broken, so I'll try to fix them as I go. Still heavily medicated at the moment, so I apologise for being somewhat vague at times.

Razor One! You are... kind of all over the place, nitpicking here and there, being intellectually dishonest in places from time to time, apparently not reading posts I was responding to, so I am just going to make a point or two from your more memorable comments.

Oh, and on a personal note, do try making your points without characterising your opponents as being horny teenage boys or supportive of genocide. Your consistent ad hominem damages any sympathy to your position, actively turns people against you, and is destroying your credibility. If you can't disagree with someone without casting aspersions against them, I'm going to ask that you let matter drop as a favour to yourself, lest you get reported again.

*Sigh*

You know as well as I that a good deal of this forum is dedicated to making sexual comments on the Loroi and a good chunk of art on the Insider (fanart and otherwise) is highly sexual in nature, many Loroi women being depicted in their underwear. Your refusal to acknowledge that, and your implication of the contrary is disappointing. Forum commentators have outright said that the Loroi look cute, and that they feel a strong urge to help them because they look cute.

And as for my "characterizations" of those supporting the Loroi equaling the support of xenocide, that is the entire preface of the story RazorOne. Whoever humanity joins will be, by definition, receiving the entirety of the human species support for their faction's planned xenocide of the opposing faction. That's what makes the story so interesting, both factions are playing for keeps.

If you think reporting me for making those points is unfair or rude than please by all means, go ahead. Given that a large number of comments I read on this forum concern themselves with Loroi sexuality and attractiveness; as well as the very clear honesty of both the Loroi and the Umiak that they are willing to do whatever it takes to win this conflict, including xenocide, I think my points are valid and your threat is out of place..

There is a difference between appreciating the sexual aspects of the comic and fanart and having the reasoning of a horny teenager. Dismissing arguments out of hand as the reasoning of a horny teen attacks the poster and not the argument, hence why it's an ad hominem. It's essentially a tacit admission that there is no argument except to disparage others as a method of discrediting them. If you do have a point, I suggest making it while stripping it of the ad hominem. It's an irrelevant point that undermines the argument you're making. To put this into perspective, it's like someone saying the sky is blue and calling them stupid instead of telling them that the sky isn't always blue and citing examples.

As for the question of xenocide, your exact words:

I would also ask, on a personal note that the Loroi restrain themselves from stabbing future human diplomats but I think that might be a hard bargain to make, what with the whole "xenocidal" thing the Loroi apparently have going on, that everyone in the thread seems to be totally fine with and supportive of.

I would posit that yes, you are characterising anyone that sides with the Loroi as being fully supportive of xenocide. If that was not your intent, a simple clarification will do. As it stands, it appears that you are conflating the issue of supporting the Loroi being the same as being fully supportive of xenocide. One can side with the Loroi without condoning their xenocidal policy. The story makes that issue very plainly apparent.

For your last point, I don't make threats, they're empty unless acted upon. I'm always of the opinion that you should never threaten when you can do. I in no way threatened to report you for anything, it really was a friendly reminder for your own good, considering you have already been reported by someone else and warned once in the thread by Arioch. The only time I hit the report button is for blatant trolling, and I have a personal policy of not moderating in threads I'm involved in since that helps avoid conflicts of interest. The only other time is when I see a spambot that I don't have the modly powers to smite, which on this forum is never.

See Babylon 5's Earth-Minbari war for a good example of what happens when you fight an enemy that outclasses you on every level.

And I will see your fictional conflict and raise you the Vietnam and the American Revolutionary War. RazorOne I know it's a fictional sci-fi fan fiction but you will do your points more credit by using example from real life and not from fiction. There are conflicts throughout human history that went well for the higher TL faction, and conflicts in which the opposite is also true.

The technological disparities of neither war you cite as examples are even close to the matchup that exists in Outsider. If you want to disregard fiction, then fine. The conflict will be like the colonisation of Australia with Humans playing the part of the aborigines. This did not end well for the aborigines.

A sarcastic remark I made:

I would also ask, on a personal note that the Loroi restrain themselves from stabbing future human diplomats

RazorOne's response:

For someone who keeps stressing about how undiplomatic the Loroi are acting, the behaviour you advocate is just as bad.

I'm going to assume that your response was to another section of my comment, I think. I don't really understand it. I might be misreading it maybe. Please reread the comments I am responding too before reading mine.

Sarcasm does not travel well through a written medium unless you're an English author on the same level as Terry Pratchett or Douglas Adams

You advocated several times previously that the humans should demand massive concessions because the Loroi brought a Teek to the meeting, that they should walk out and side immediately with the Umiak as a response to the Loroi's actions. The Loroi's actions are understandable once given the necessary context. The human's demanding things left and right of them because of a Teek at a meeting still makes zero sense to me, and would be horrendously undiplomatic. It undercuts the point of meeting the Loroi to establish first contact and leaps straight towards choosing a side with no information other than that the Loroi are a bit rude and inhospitable when they're in the midst of a life or death situation and someone surprises them.

It's not a diplomatic meeting. It's a first contact. This is where you establish protocols necessary for future diplomatic contact. The person they stabbed was a marine and not a diplomat. He did not have diplomatic immunity. You need to establish diplomatic immunity and it must be granted. He was an unidentified and unknown intruder on their vessel.

The only person qualified to make sure this entire meeting doesn't go completely tits up also qualifies as your oft vaunted psychic weapon. You can't physically separate the person from the weapon. They're acting openly and honestly, with a necessary demonstration to show the humans what's what.

If ever there was a situation where a person could not be separated from a weapon and that person was the only one qualified to handle the situation, then both sides would knuckle under and accept it even if they wouldn't like it. First contact is where you setup the protocols for future diplomatic contact. If the humans have their knickers in a twist about telekinetics, then all they have to do is stipulate that telekinetics are barred from the conference room and ask them to provide a negotiator who is both not telekinetic and qualified to handle negotiations, something the Loroi could easily provide at a later date but not in the situation at hand.

Hmm, ok. You make a fair point, I will agree with that.

Progress!

This point got me thinking about diplomatic immunity. After a bit of reading I turned this up:

The British Parliament first guaranteed diplomatic immunity to foreign ambassadors in 1709, after Count Andrey Matveyev, a Russian resident in London, had been subjected to verbal and physical abuse by British bailiffs.

Dragoongfa, you magnificent bastard, I read your book!

That being said, it'd be interesting to see how the Loroi came up with diplomatic immunity or if the concept even exists for them. Something for the questions thread methinks, after I've had a chance to clear the drugs from my system.

[Grayhome]

See there we go.

Also now that I reflect on the matter, I would have killed all the Loroi nabbed what tech I could and run. They're just going out of their way to be as difficult as possible.

Ain't nobody got time for that.

[Logannion]

Well, differing views among the readership aside, I enjoyed reading this update.

To change the subject though, why are the Loroi so puzzled at the Human ability to learn trade in the aforementioned timespan? Especially coming from them, since they can have both eidetic memory and the ability to transfer that knowledge telepathically very rapidly. Is this a soft manifestation of their racism towards non-telepaths?

Its a good thing they had that conversation telepathically, It could have been considered a diplomatic insult otherwise.

[JQBogus]

Loroi might be able to learn to understand Trade very quickly, but actually learning the precision vocalizations needed to speak it clearly and quickly might take longer. Speech is not natural to the Loroi as it is to Humans, and most of them don't really have much use for it in their day to day lives.

[Logannion]

That may be it. I guess its the classic 'I don't know how to do it, so those that could must be outstanding, since I'm not dumb' scenario.

Funny thing really, humanity is the only race that could teach the Loroi how it is like to be a non-telepath. I wonder what a Loroi raised by humans (only, no other contact with any other species) would end up being like. If all things go smoothly, I wonder if Mizol might be embedded into Human Majority culture in the future as a practical test of some sort.

Meh. *shrugs*

[Sweforce]

This reminds me of how in the original story Alex was about to teach Beryl an human language in "a few moments". So far into that story they have not been able to start doing that but I suspect that the loroi will relay heavily on telepathic scanning when learning a new language this way. That will not work with Alex thou due to his immunity so poor Beryl will have to learn the old fashion way hopefully she is a fast learner. BTW I got a co worker that speak five languages, thou not all fluently. I still have to correct her Swedish from time to time (on her request) but her daughters that is born here speak it fluently of course.

An observation regarding my coworker I sometimes overhear her speaking with a relative on the phone in an Indian language (hindi?) with mixed in words and phrases in Swedish. I had this idea of what would happened if some loroi where placed onboard human ships. The loroi era of exploration ended a long time ago but they are now in a position where they really could use some exploration, if nothing else in order to find a place for a backup colony way out of the way from the local bubble. logistics may may make it better to use the humans ships for this.

As a courtesy, the loroi would speak trade or a human language even to each other while surrounded by humans but, of course, they would lapse into sanzai as well, causing a stuttered speak. They may also momentarily forget that the humans cannot understand sanzai from time to time, send something, causing them to do a mental facepalm and then formulate what they wanted to say as proper speech. When they do that, well sometimes I write a long forum post just to have some glitch eat it forcing me to do it again. When I do, the new attempt tend to be much more primitive since I just cannot be arsed to do it all again. Sometimes I just do not post at all. A lorioi enter the mess room, just look at a human for a second, just enough to establish eye contact, moments later she just say "nothing" and walks out again, unwilling to reform what she wanted to say in the form of words since just looking for coffee machine herself is easier then to ask.

[Logannion]

As a courtesy, the loroi would speak trade or a human language even to each other while surrounded by humans but, of course, they would lapse into sanzai as well, causing a stuttered speak. They may also momentarily forget that the humans cannot understand sanzai from time to time, send something, causing them to do a mental facepalm and then formulate what they wanted to say as proper speech. When they do that, well sometimes I write a long forum post just to have some glitch eat it forcing me to do it again. When I do, the new attempt tend to be much more primitive since I just cannot be arsed to do it all again. Sometimes I just do not post at all. A loroi enter the mess room, just look at a human for a second, just enough to establish eye contact, moments later she just say "nothing" and walks out again, unwilling to reform what she wanted to say in the form of words since just looking for coffee machine herself is easier then to ask.

True that, Its bad enough that Loroi Trade isn't their first language (which is telepathy), its even worse in that the spoken word is much more constrictive than telepathy.

This reminds me of how in the original story Alex was about to teach Beryl an human language in "a few moments". So far into that story they have not been able to start doing that but I suspect that the loroi will relay heavily on telepathic scanning when learning a new language this way. That will not work with Alex thou due to his immunity so poor Beryl will have to learn the old fashion way hopefully she is a fast learner.

This is something I hope they'll get to do over the flight.