Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thread

Discussion regarding the Outsider webcomic, science, technology and science fiction.

Moderator: Outsider Moderators

User avatar
Arioch
Site Admin
Posts: 4486
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2011 4:19 am
Location: San Jose, CA
Contact:

Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre

Post by Arioch »

I agree that personal aggression doesn't always translate into international aggression. And vice versa. Delrias aggression is systematic, but mostly interpersonal. Even hostile, angry, borderline psychotic leaders can realize that MAD-like aggression against powerful foreign nations doesn't benefit their hopes for rule. Though of course that's not always the case, as we have experienced.

And I'll just point out that a nuclear war probably won't result in extinction of the master species, though it may result in the extinction of that modern culture. Very few scenarios of World War III on Earth would have resulted in the extinction of the human species, though they may have meant the destruction of our modern civilization. Some humans somewhere would have survived.

The Delrias and Morat are the descendants of an ancient precursor starfaring race (the Fenrias), who are almost a million years removed from their descendants, and who predate even the Dreiman and Soia eras. The Delrias and Morat are as far removed from their Fenrias ancestors as we are removed from Homo erectus. At least some part of Delrias aggression seems to be a recent development, as it is not shared by their Morat cousins. And yet the Fenrias also fought amongst themselves, using weapons of mass destruction. The Fenrias homeworld of Kabel, which is part of modern Delrias territory, had been obliterated in pre-Soia times by weapons of mass destruction at the hand of other Fenrias factions. The long history of Fenrias internecine warfare is mostly unknown, but certainly involved the extinction of numerous offshoot species and cultures. So ancient was the destruction of Kabel that in the era in which the Delrias fought the Loroi, their capital was Rubat, in a nearby system. Kabel, now a recovering but still marginal world, was not even recognized to be the home system of the Fenrias until after the Loroi-Delrias war.

The Delrias seem more psychotic at a small scale, but less psychotic at a large scale, than their precursor ancestors.

User avatar
Mr.Tucker
Posts: 303
Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2013 4:45 pm

Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre

Post by Mr.Tucker »

This question is tied to the one on the Loroi Q&A thread. If Umiak combat cyborgs are expensive to produce and maintain, why are they used at all? Ground combat matters less in this setting. Even then, I'm under the impression that a hardtrooper is no match for a Teidar. If powered armor is not useful, why are cyborgs practical? Just use UGV's and regular grunts.
Also....it's nice to be back :D .

User avatar
dragoongfa
Posts: 1920
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 9:26 pm
Location: Athens, Greece

Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre

Post by dragoongfa »

Mr.Tucker wrote:This question is tied to the one on the Loroi Q&A thread. If Umiak combat cyborgs are expensive to produce and maintain, why are they used at all? Ground combat matters less in this setting. Even then, I'm under the impression that a hardtrooper is no match for a Teidar. If powered armor is not useful, why are cyborgs practical? Just use UGV's and regular grunts.
Also....it's nice to be back :D .
From the insider: http://well-of-souls.com/outsider/forum_umiak.html
Their external skeletons are stronger than an insect's chitin, but they still run into serious weight problems as they get larger, as a giant insect might. But because they evolved on a world with only one-third of Earth's gravity, the weight of the Umiak exoskeleton isn't a problem, and they are agile, swift creatures in their own environment. On a world with Earth-normal gravity, an unmodified Umiak can barely walk, which is why they rely so heavily on augmentation and modification.
Umiak can't really function well in normal gravity due to their exoskeleton. For civic use they could 'create' some civies that are stronger or with less dense exoskeleton (probably a combo of these two) but for combat use and policing this approach is a no because ground combat drops a lot of weight on one's shoulders (The weight a modern soldier carries around when campaigning is 70 kilos, around half of which is his combat weight). Then there is the constant need for 'boots on the ground' for the occupation of subjugated species.

I believe that their solution for the problem of being able to have ground troops occupying/attack normal gravity planets is split in two parts:

1st part: Big fleets above, more than capable to obliterate the entire planet if need be. Good as a psychological weapon in order to keep the masses in check.
2nd part: Cybernetic soldiers that are in essence what we imagine power armored soldiers to be. Stronger, heavily armed and armored than species that have evolved in those gravities. They are enough to stand toe to toe and overcome regular armed forces on their own but with orbital backup things are very one sided.

10.000 Hardtroops on standby ready to be deployed in an instant, combined with the firepower of the garrison fleet above them I doubt that any subjugated populace would think of rebelling.

Of course the Loroi are a bit different than other species so the Umiak have decided that they are not worth the trouble of occupying.

User avatar
Mr.Tucker
Posts: 303
Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2013 4:45 pm

Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre

Post by Mr.Tucker »

But I've been lead to understand that hardtroops are only part of the Umiak ground forces. The rest must be gene-spliced Umiak (to tolerate higher gravities as mentioned). So why not use those and UGVs? Or do the Umiak highly value psychological impact?
dragoongfa wrote:Cybernetic soldiers that are in essence what we imagine power armored soldiers to be
I know, only, to quote the Insider:
Since we are talking a science fiction setting here... and since the military is working on them: do the Loroi make use of powered armor or humanoid combat vehicles/robots in their forces?

A few ground-based Loroi army units use armor that's heavy enough to require hydraulic/power assist in the legs to ease movement, but there are no examples of "powered armor" in the sense of Starship Troopers style battlesuits. The Loroi do use combat robots, primarily as self-propelled squad heavy weapons, but I don't see any advantage to these robots being humanoid.


Or to synthesize my question: why is powered armor bad and cybernetics good? Or is it simply more expedient for the Umiak to put brains in jars rather than build armor for them?

User avatar
Arioch
Site Admin
Posts: 4486
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2011 4:19 am
Location: San Jose, CA
Contact:

Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre

Post by Arioch »

Mr.Tucker wrote:This question is tied to the one on the Loroi Q&A thread. If Umiak combat cyborgs are expensive to produce and maintain, why are they used at all? Ground combat matters less in this setting. Even then, I'm under the impression that a hardtrooper is no match for a Teidar. If powered armor is not useful, why are cyborgs practical? Just use UGV's and regular grunts.
The critical weakness of powered armor is the living body inside; it's difficult to build an exoskeleton that can ambulate without crushing the limbs and joints of the occupant. However, if you were willing to amputate all the problematic body parts, then a combat cyborg could be made practical. The problem is that many societies, including our own, would blanch at the concept of this sort of self-mutilation. The Umiak are not so squeamish, and moreover, their bodies are already exoskeletal, and so they are a natural fit for this sort of augmentation.

The Umiak use a wide variety of different troop types. As dragoongfa mentioned, most "regular" Umiak are unsuited to ground combat due to their G-intolerance. Some Umiak troops are "soft troops", that is, genetically enhanced Umiak with better G-tolerance and increased strength, but who are strictly light infantry, without major cybernetic alterations or much protection beyond their natural (though artificially strengthened) carapaces which would weigh them down too much.

There are two basic types of hardtroops: the first is a genetically enhanced "soft trooper" with its carapace replaced by a semi-powered armored exoskeleton. The second is a full-on cyborg, retaining the Umiak's organs and nervous system, but with the rest of the body almost entirely replaced with machinery. The first type looks like an armored Umiak, but the second type can look very different.

The Umiak also use some unmanned robotic units, though there is less need for them compared to the Loroi since type-2 hardtroops can carry their own heavy weapons.

Why do the Umiak use hardtroops? Because they're well-armed, well-armored heavy infantry that are pretty dangerous against most opponents. It's true that a hardtrooper is inferior to a Loroi Teidar, but most Loroi troops are not Teidar. Hardtroops are used as security aboard ships as well as on the ground, and they do see action (hint hint).

Final note: these Umiak cyborgs are not "brains in a can." At this tech level, the most effective and economical way to keep a brain alive is to allow it to keep as much as possible of its original body support as possible, and that means most of its organs, including nervous, endocrine, cardiovascular and digestive systems. The technology required to keep a brain alive by itself, synthesizing all the complex chemicals required, and/or being able to repair itself the way a living body would, requires TL14 "nano-buddies" tech that's not yet available to the major combatants.

User avatar
Mr.Tucker
Posts: 303
Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2013 4:45 pm

Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre

Post by Mr.Tucker »

I see. Thank you for clearing that up :) .

User avatar
junk
Posts: 210
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2011 11:52 am

Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre

Post by junk »

Onaiom wrote:About the Pipolsid:

How they manage to develop a technological civilization ? Fire is effectively impossible without specialized resources...

They use some sort of "seacrete" (somewhat resembling shellfish shells) in their construcions ?

I presume that they extract metal supplies from the deep sea, in raw form ?

How they interact with the other races ?

How they get in orbit ? Water is heavier than air. Their ships must be small then ?

They use the Loroi for most of their defense ?
Remember that you don't actually need standard fire. Just take our sea, there's a lot of spare energy around sulfur volcanoes which allows chemotrophic lifeforms. Many which do utilise exothermic reactions.

EDIT

To not clog the human thread.
if Umiak suffer a lot from jump sickness, is there some reason why they don't devote a lot more resources to emergency computer systems which is able to operate the ship very well for at least short amounts of time after a jump?

User avatar
GeoModder
Posts: 1038
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:31 pm

Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre

Post by GeoModder »

Crossing over from the terran miscellaneous thread:

Can a hypothetical Morat and Delrias couple still produce viable offspring despite a less-then-a-million year genetic separation?
Image

User avatar
Arioch
Site Admin
Posts: 4486
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2011 4:19 am
Location: San Jose, CA
Contact:

Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre

Post by Arioch »

I didn't see the edit:
junk wrote:if Umiak suffer a lot from jump sickness, is there some reason why they don't devote a lot more resources to emergency computer systems which is able to operate the ship very well for at least short amounts of time after a jump?
Umiak ships aren't helpless after jump, but they do operate at reduced effectiveness until the crew has recovered. There is a certain amount that a ship can do autonomously, but logically there must be some limit to how well the ship can operate without a crew; otherwise, crews would be unnecessary and ships would be unmanned.

The most notable shortcomings that a dazed and confused Umiak fleet will experience shortly after jump will be in reduced ability to respond effectively to unplanned events, poorer reaction time in responding to such events, and in reduced effectiveness of crew damage control.
GeoModder wrote:Can a hypothetical Morat and Delrias couple still produce viable offspring despite a less-then-a-million year genetic separation?
It's possible, but I'm inclined to doubt it. The Fenrias empire split into separate warring nations during their own era, and the regional Fenrias bloodlines had begun to diverge long before the arrival of the Dreiman split the empire in two.

Roeben
Posts: 122
Joined: Mon Jun 24, 2013 11:49 pm

Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre

Post by Roeben »

It would make sense were it possible: Tigers, Leopards and Jaguars, and these are more then a million years apart on the evolutionary tree.

There's even lion-jaguar-leopard complex hybrids known as Lijagulep's out there.

Theoretically speaking it should be possible, but whether such offspring is fertile is a different question.

discord
Posts: 629
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2011 7:44 am
Location: Umeå, Sweden

Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre

Post by discord »

roeben: those cats mentioned have all had the some slight advantage of similar evolutionary tensions, first being on the same planet, second mostly on the same continent.
evolutionary changes happens due to two reasons first is iterations, the second is evolutionary pressure, one million years is a hell of a lot more iterations for a fruit fly....

the fact that one branch is carnivore, the other is omnivore says that there is some significant difference.

Krulle
Posts: 1413
Joined: Wed May 20, 2015 9:14 am

Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre

Post by Krulle »

Or that the evolution pressure on the different planets were high enough....

For example, the giant panda here on Earth is a problematic abnormality: its digestive system is one of carnivorous bears, but it eats only plants (>99%bamboo) [1], despite having lived in bamboo forests for millions of years.
But it is evolving a 6th finger (5 fingers plus a "pseudo thumb", which only this species and the only distantly related red panda has) [2].

Edit: optically, the two races got quite some divergence:
ImageImage
Vote for Outsider on TWC: Image
charred steppes, borders of territories: page 59,
jump-map of local stars: page 121, larger map in Loroi: page 118,
System view Leido Crossroads: page 123, after the battle page 195

User avatar
dragoongfa
Posts: 1920
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 9:26 pm
Location: Athens, Greece

Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre

Post by dragoongfa »

I have been wondering what Tech Level the Soias, the Dreiman and the Fenrias were at the height of their power.

From the insider:

http://well-of-souls.com/outsider/tech_level.html
0 | Stone Age (prior to 3000 BCE): stone tools, pottery, archery, fire, lever, language, animal husbandry, calendar
1 | Bronze Age (3000-600 BCE): copper and bronze working, wheel, writing, agriculture, masonry, sailing, currency
2 | Iron Age (601 BCE-600 CE): iron working, mathematics, keystone arch, concrete, siege engines
3 | Medieval (601-1450): steel tools, optics (telescope), chemistry
4 | Renaissance/Colonial (1450-1800): gunpowder, printing, global navigation, accurate timekeeping
5 | Industrial Revolution (1801-1900): mass production, steam power, railroad, rifling, electricity, telegraph, photography
6 | World Wars (1901-1950): combustion engine, automobiles, airplanes, rockets, radio, radar, atomic weapons
7 | Information Age (1951-2000): television, jet engine, satellites, guided missiles, nuclear energy, computers, lasers, helicopters
8 | Spacefaring (2001-2100): stealth, ion drive, interplanetary travel, fusion power, cybernetics, railguns, bioengineering, 3D printing
9 | Starfaring: (2100-2150): jump drive, interstellar travel, inertial dampers, artificial gravity, antigrav, longevity, shipstones
10 | Antimatter: (2151-?): antimatter power, blasters, electromagnetic screens, Floater drive
11 | Force: plasma focus, wave-loom device, force screens, tractor beams
12 | Spacetime Mastery: reactionless drive, ansible, hyperspace metrics. virtual consciousness
13 | Worldbuilding: jetpacks, personal force screens, unrestricted manipulation of planetary environment
14 | Dysonian: smart materials, replicators, construction of planets, dyson spheres, ringworlds and so on
15 | Superscience: matter transmission, black hole generators
16+ | A Sufficiently Advanced Technology: as you wish...
The way the insider entry of the precursor empires is put I believe that the Fenrias were Tech Level 9, maybe early Tech Level 10. The Dreiman were at least early 11 and the Soias at least late 12.

What I am more interested in are the Soias, in particular the massive space ships that they lived in could be classified as early tech level 14, self sustainable ship that housed millions if not billions of people. However these ships could also be classified at tech level 13 if they aren't self sufficient in the way Dysonian tech is imagined. They are really hard to build and maintain, demanding resources from multiple star systems in order to do so.

So I am forced to believe that the Soias were tech level 13 since they did maintain a sizeable empire that covered the entire galactic arm, if they were Dysonian resources would not be such an issue and conquest would be done either for its own shake or just for laughs. An other sign of them being tech level 13 are the Soia-Liron life forms and how the Soias tailored them (implying attempts at full manipulation of planetary environments). The problem is that despite all the time the Soias had, few planets seem to have been through an unrestricted manipulation of their environment, Maia could be classified as the chief example of a manipulated planet but the way it was done could be seen as being a patchwork job over a long period of time and done by multiple parties with the Soians adding stuff that best suited their own needs. Furthermore its agrarian function further adds to the argument that the Soians weren't Dysonian.

With everything in mind the Soians seem to be late 12, early 13 in their Tech level with the added niche of super massive spaceships in which they lived in. The question then is why go to such lengths to build and maintain such ships?

1st Theory: The Soians suffered from numerous disastrous wars in which they saw their worlds destroyed numerous times. Deciding that repairing devastated worlds and colonizing new ones proved counter productive due to the nature of their wars they invested heavily in such space ships in order to survive wars that could completely eradicate the surface of a planet. Maintaining these ships could then be relegated to onboard capabilities coupled with raw materials given to them by subjugated species. New such spaceships would be built when needed depending on population needs.

2nd Theory: A way to limit evolutionary drift. Having colonized numerous planets the Soias found themselves with the same problem as the Fenrias, with radical genetic deviations that sparked conflict. After a few such conflict the Soias decided that the best way to limit and even reverse this drift was by introducing a fully controlled habitat for the entirety of their species. Super massive space ships fill that category and coupled with genetic manipulation the genetic deviation could be even reversed.

3rd Theory: A mix of the above two.

So did I answer my own questions or were the precursor empires on different tech levels?

Krulle
Posts: 1413
Joined: Wed May 20, 2015 9:14 am

Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre

Post by Krulle »

Also depending on regional differences, different regions could've been on different tech levels.
Like modern Earth has different tech levels if you look at different countries.
Or even regions within one nation....
Vote for Outsider on TWC: Image
charred steppes, borders of territories: page 59,
jump-map of local stars: page 121, larger map in Loroi: page 118,
System view Leido Crossroads: page 123, after the battle page 195

User avatar
Arioch
Site Admin
Posts: 4486
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2011 4:19 am
Location: San Jose, CA
Contact:

Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre

Post by Arioch »

It is difficult to accurately identify the tech level of a technology more advanced than your own beyond general terms. Medieval TL3 scientists might have a tough time telling whether a handheld radio was from TL6 or TL7. It's also sometimes hard to judge a civilization's overall tech level from individual items. Not every item used by a civilization was at its pinnacle of technology; an iron crowbar from 2015 (TL8) doesn't look much different from one from 1850 (TL5). Retroactively, with the benefit of history and superior science, we can tell the difference between and ancient sword and an industrial one based on chemical characteristics, but that's harder to do peering into the future. So, for the most part, the modern scientists of the Local Bubble can only say with some certainly that a particular civilization had "at least" a certain tech level.

The technology of the Fenrias civilization developed and changed over long stretches of time, starting at TL9 and advancing possibly as far as TL12 in some places before the Dreiman incursion. By that time the Fenrias had splintered into numerous independent empires, with differing culture, technology and even biology.

The Dreiman are estimated to have been at least TL13, based mainly on their feats of planetary engineering, and secondarily on their ability to easily defeat the native Fenrias forces. They seem to have been able to move planets into new orbits and to extensively modify planet surfaces. Surviving Dreiman orbital artifacts use a similar materials science to the later Soia artifacts, though the mechanical designs are distinctly different.

The artifacts from the Soia era are those of planetary settlements, and the artifacts of the Soia-Liron races appear to be at roughly the same level of materials science as those of the native races who were members of the empire, with an level of at least TL12. However, it's not always clear whether these artifacts were the crowbars or smartphones of their civilizations. Some Soia-era artifacts made from relatively straightforward materials had functions that are not fully understood (such as the telepathic amplifiers), and some had functions that can only be guessed at. Also, there appears to have been a higher power that was administrating the empire, as there appears to have been a quarantine of local races in effect during the Soia period, with little or no movement of non-Soia-Liron populations between star systems. According to legend, this regimen was enforced by the Soia proper aboard their spaceborne Dread-stars, but as no remnants of these has ever been found (nor has any direct evidence that they existed at all), one can only speculate as to the tech level of the civilization that made them. Although it seems clear that the Soia shared technology with the burgeoning local civilizations, it seems reasonable to infer that they did not supply them with their best technologies.

Sweforce
Posts: 546
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 12:00 am

Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre

Post by Sweforce »

Arioch wrote:Although it seems clear that the Soia shared technology with the burgeoning local civilizations, it seems reasonable to infer that they did not supply them with their best technologies.
This may not have been entirely to keep control. There are frequent examples with aid packages containing equipment the locals have barely been able to use and been utterly unable to maintain. After a few years the new farm tractor are just standing parked collecting dust and rust. Another reason to not give your best tech is economical, send your old obsolete tech to a developing nation so it can be of use rather then scrapped. This also have the benefit of the tech being closer to the locals tech level and as such is easier to maintain. This is where the humanity in the story have the best opportunity to get some upgrades. Do not ask for the latest stuff, ask for that stuff that you would have developed yourself in fifty years.
It is of course possible to retain spikes of high tech level in a low tech level civilization. Your farmers still use ox pulled charts but they got modern cellphones. As long as the technicians needed to maintain the infrastructure know what they are doing it works well enough. If nothing else, purchase your new stuff with a education and maintenance package deal. humanity could ask for some teachers and maintenence crew to work on earth for a while. The user does not need to know how the phone works as long as they can use them, seriously do you understand the inner workings of your car or the computer you are using to read this? You may but you do not need to. Still I doubt that you believe that magic is involved. Just because aliens delivers stuff to your doorstep you do not need to develop a cargo cult thou you may, it is optional.

User avatar
Arioch
Site Admin
Posts: 4486
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2011 4:19 am
Location: San Jose, CA
Contact:

Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre

Post by Arioch »

Sweforce wrote:This may not have been entirely to keep control. There are frequent examples with aid packages containing equipment the locals have barely been able to use and been utterly unable to maintain. After a few years the new farm tractor are just standing parked collecting dust and rust. Another reason to not give your best tech is economical, send your old obsolete tech to a developing nation so it can be of use rather then scrapped. This also have the benefit of the tech being closer to the locals tech level and as such is easier to maintain.
This is a very good point, but surely the ultra-advanced Soia would have realized this, just as the Historians realized that giving their best technology to the Loroi would have been useless, as the Loroi could barely reproduce the dumbed-down version of the TL11 plasma focus that they were supplied.

But that was a case of a technology boost that occurred over the span of a decade. Consider the timescale of the Soia control of the local bubble; if it had been the intent of the Soia to raise the local races to their own level, they had more than two hundred thousand years to accomplish it. And consider also that the surface-dwelling Soia-Liron races had the same apparently limited level of technology as the non-Soia local races.

User avatar
Mr.Tucker
Posts: 303
Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2013 4:45 pm

Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre

Post by Mr.Tucker »

Interesting that the Dreiman were of a similar material science level to the known soia artefacts. The wording in the Insider makes it seem that the Soia batted aside the Dreiman similar to what the Dreiman themselves had done to the Fenrias. Must not have been quite as clear cut. Then again the border between the Dreiman and soia eras is somewhat fluid in different regions. Will we ever find out what happened during these eras? (is that significant in any way to the story?)

Sweforce
Posts: 546
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 12:00 am

Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre

Post by Sweforce »

Mr.Tucker wrote:Interesting that the Dreiman were of a similar material science level to the known soia artefacts. The wording in the Insider makes it seem that the Soia batted aside the Dreiman similar to what the Dreiman themselves had done to the Fenrias. Must not have been quite as clear cut. Then again the border between the Dreiman and soia eras is somewhat fluid in different regions. Will we ever find out what happened during these eras? (is that significant in any way to the story?)
Actually the Dremian replaced the Fenrias violently then the Soia replaced the Deremian in what appears to be a largely non violent takeover. It is possible that the Dremian had lost the territory to the Soia in a treaty and then moved out on their own accord. Perhaps due to losing a war in another region like what happened here on earth after WWI where losing colonial powers had to hand over their colonies to the victorious ones.

User avatar
Arioch
Site Admin
Posts: 4486
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2011 4:19 am
Location: San Jose, CA
Contact:

Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre

Post by Arioch »

Mr.Tucker wrote:Will we ever find out what happened during these eras? (is that significant in any way to the story?)
Some.

Post Reply