Random Discussion on Weapon Systems

[Arioch]

The fuel numbers listed in the tables are a legacy of the simulation I set up to test combat scenarios, the movement system of which was based on the Attack Vector: Tactical game. In this system, a "fuel unit" is abstract, representing the amount of fuel needed to accelerate a particular ship by one hex (10,000 km) per turn (640 seconds). This means that the energy of one fuel unit varies from ship to ship based on the ship's mass. This is slightly problematic for the simulation in the sense that I'm using fuel units as a measure of a torpedo's destructive capacity (since fuel is a torpedo's payload), but only a little, since it only applies to torpedoes, which have masses within the same ballpark.

It would make sense at some point to normalize these fuel values based on each ship's mass, so that the listed rating represents an actual amount of fuel instead of a relative amount of fuel, but I'm not in a huge hurry to do that at the moment. The only thing the fuel numbers are useful for right now is to give you a rough idea of the relative endurance of craft of the same type.

[Jack]

I can count a lot of fuel for various craft, if you say, what a torpedo to base.
Offer DX blister for Loroi and "Scatter Pack" for Umiak.
Efficiency engines in fighters, gunboats and extra high-range torpedoes, long-range torpedoes are the same as in blisters.
In the medium-range torpedoes engine efficiency is equal to three-quarters.
At short range torpedoes efficiency motors is half.
In microtorpedoes engine efficiency equal quarters.

For gunboats and fighters needed required speed stock on board. It can be obtained by multiplying the specified table-board fuel capacity at 0.9375 megameters per second? This value of "attack vectors".

P.S. Umiak Micro SR Torpedo, mass - 5 ton. Umiak HXLR Torpedo, mass - 120 ton. The difference is more than an order of magnitude.

[Jack]

Torpedoes with that calculated from the above procedure fuel capacity.
Loroi USR "Tolot" Torpedo 1.7
Loroi SR Torpedo 10.7
Loroi MR Torpedo 25
Loroi LR Torpedo 50
Loroi DX Armored Blister 50
Umiak Micro SR Torpedo 1.6
Umiak FSR Torpedo 12.5
Umiak FMR Torpedo 32.4
Umiak XHSR Torpedo 30
Umiak XMR+ Torpedo 19.8
Umiak HMR Torpedo 66
Umiak HLR Torpedo 120
Umiak HXLR Torpedo 240
Umiak "Rockeye" 24
Umiak "Scatter Pack" 60
If you want give the values to the an integer, it is possible to increase the acceleration time.
Comparison of characteristics of small torpedoes with KKV gives kinetic damage on a direct hit about 100. When damage from blasting fuel not more than 20. This leads to the assumption make small torpedo very large KKV.

[Jack]

Restated reserve speed from fighters, megameters per minute, based on "Attack Vector". The speed of light - 18,000 megameters per minute.
Loroi "Arrow" Light Interceptor 5625
Loroi "Tornado" Interceptor 11250
Loroi "Banshee" Attack Craft 11250
Loroi "Lancer" Heavy Fighter 14062.5
Loroi "Fury" Super Fighter 16875
Umiak Quad Gunboat 14062.5
Umiak Medium Gunboat 16875
Umiak Heavy Gunboat 16875

Fuel capacity in the same mass units, that torpedoes, to accelerate up to 0.1c.
Loroi "Arrow" Light Interceptor 85.7
Loroi "Tornado" Interceptor 133.9
Loroi "Banshee" Attack Craft 160.7
Loroi "Lancer" Heavy Fighter 214.3
Loroi "Fury" Super Fighter 321.4
Umiak Quad Gunboat 2160
Umiak Medium Gunboat 5400
Umiak Heavy Gunboat 7650
It turns out that light gunboat Umiak is about one hundred medium-range torpedoes by weight and fuel.

[Jack]

By the way, 50 kg KKV Umiak, accelerated to velocities of HXLR torpedoes cause a few hundred points of damage, right?
A firing range that KKV, that is separated from the torpedo - 40 megameters?

[Arioch]

The damage of any kinetic weapon is going to increase as the square of its terminal velocity, which will vary greatly depending on the starting velocity of the launching vessel or blister and the relative velocity of the target. Ideally it would be expressed as a formula; the listed numbers are just examples for the case in which the firing vessel and the target have matched velocities, and the missile is accelerated only by its own engine.

[SVlad]

Imagine the ship arrives in the empty system neighboring (< 5 light years) with the enemy borderline target system and drops the torpedo there. The torpedo accelerates toward the target star up to the speed of light, and the ship flies back home. After several years the torpedo flies at about speed of light into the target system and carries exterminatus on the target planet.
This option is not suitable for the current war because of the timing. But generally you can start preparing for war in advance and launch torpedoes with the expectation of a massive blow to the borders at a given moment.
Is it real for Loroi or Umiak to build such torpedoes? And can Loroi detect and intercept such a torpedo in time?

[Arioch]

Imagine the ship arrives in the empty system neighboring (< 5 light years) with the enemy borderline target system and drops the torpedo there. The torpedo accelerates toward the target star up to the speed of light, and the ship flies back home. After several years the torpedo flies at about speed of light into the target system and carries exterminatus on the target planet.
This option is not suitable for the current war because of the timing. But generally you can start preparing for war in advance and launch torpedoes with the expectation of a massive blow to the borders at a given moment.
Is it real for Loroi or Umiak to build such torpedoes? And can Loroi detect and intercept such a torpedo in time?

If you took a corvette hull and stripped it down so that it was nothing but engines and extra fuel, you could probably get something that could accelerate at almost 40g for almost 400 hours. Taking relativistic effects into account, such a vehicle could reach a top speed of perhaps 80% lightspeed. It would take about 6 years to reach its target. I think in order to be able to hit anything from that distance, it would need to reserve some fuel for mid-course corrections and terminal guidance.

Because it travels on the jump vector (though in real space), the torpedo would probably pass very close to the stations guarding that jump point. They wouldn't have much time to react, but any hit scored on such a vehicle would probably have a good chance of pushing it off course or damaging its ability to make terminal corrections. If the torpedo survived the encounter at the jump point, the defenders would have less than an hour to scramble another interception attempt. Defenses close to the planet wouldn't be of much use, as the torpedo's mass would still hit the planet even if disabled or destroyed at that point.

Aside from the problem of the weapon's slowness (a lot can happen in 6 years), the biggest problem in an Outsider context is that there aren't any inhabited planets directly on the border; these were either evacuated or destroyed long ago. There really aren't any suitable targets for such a weapon.

[SVlad]

The idea is to launch RKKV before you actually declare a war. Then launcher ship have chances to unsuspiciously fly around enemy borders.
If it can be made from convenient corvette, it should be rather easy to produce (and launch) dozens of RKKVs.

On the other side RKKV could be easy target. Even the small pebble from railgun would evaporate RKKV if hit. In missile reference frame any hit would be at relativistic speed.

[Arioch]

The problem in that case is the launch being observed. Any ships that transit the system during the 16 day burn window will easily see the torpedo heading out-system, and for months afterwards, it will still be very hot and relatively easy to spot. It will be traveling right on the line between the two systems, so any ships making the jump to the target system will be looking directly at it as they make their preparations and measurements for jump. Any system with an important populated planet will surely have patrols or observation posts in all adjacent systems.

Even if all goes well and you hit the target, all it will do is kill civilians; any system defenses will still be intact. It has the potential to do severe damage to any important strategic infrastructure on the planet, but it's very unlikely that a key production system is located directly on the border. Historical examples of terror bombing of civilians suggest that it often backfires, doing more to harden the resolve of the enemy than it does to help win the war. Also, the use of a terror weapon as the very first act in a surprise war will not improve a nation's international reputation.

[Krulle]

I've once ead a SciFi book, where the kinetic missiles were used as deterrence weapons (most Human factions controlled only 1 or 2 systems).
Some kinetic weapons were stationed something between a half and one ly out, If an attack happened from an agressor, a code was sent out, and coded target (of a pre-set list), and the weapon accelerated in a direction outwards which is nearly invisible from the system, until the targetting burn would not be visible anymore, then turn, and aim, and fly towards the target system.
Some would stay put and accelerate some random time later (even waiting 1-2 years before burning towards the target).

As the start signal can be done unidirectional, the attacker has no idea where the missile is hidden to intercept it.
And observing all of interstellar space for a start burn is impossible.
A stop signal would have to be sent directional (laser beam), to verify that someone legit is sending them, as only those have the codes to get the pre-set evasion start burns and therefore be able to calculate the app. position of the kinetic missile.

Does not really work as an offensive weapon in that setting, but any attacker would think twice before their home system would be destroyed some 10-20 years later...
(I don't remember much else from the series, besides some benevolent, Human created AI being the real controller, and having created several Human colonies, and forbidding any interference in its own cone-of-light. (travelling faster than light also propels you backwards in time, which could lead to paradoxes))

[Arioch]

Positioning such weapons would take decades, and activating them would take decades more. "Something bad may happen to you 40 years after you destroy us" doesn't sound to me like a strong deterrent. Unattended automated systems are both unreliable and vulnerable to preemptive counterattack. And since weapons have no deterrence value unless you tell the enemy about them, they're going to be looking for them.

And observing all of interstellar space for a start burn is impossible.

Not sure I agree there. Any kind of high-velocity burn is going to be pretty easy to notice, and yes, you can watch the entire sky. We could do it now with our current technology, and they could certainly do it in a future setting.

[Krulle]

Not if the start burn happens outside the solar system, and is not directed at the system....

Anyway, different sci-fi setting anyway....
In that setting it works, because normal interstellar travel by itself takes a decade or so....

[Ender's Dream]

Hey guys, I need some help crunching some calculations, I'm trying to determine the amount of explosive force a projectile, let's say a ferrous tungsten shell, weighing 7 tons fired at a velocity of 0.1% the speed of light, how much energy would be generated from such an impact, measurements in either tons or kilotons. Also this is hard vacuum, so no air resistance.

I'm currently trying to determine the best ratio for one of the warships I'm using in concept for a story I'm trying to write up, its proving kind of annoying, regardless, I figure the heaviest warship's going to need one of the heaviest guns around so stick, 2 helical main guns with 80cm gun might do.

Also I need some help determining how much energy a 510mm rail gun firing 1,950 kg shells at 0.01% the speed of light would impact with. Gotta draw up the turret guns for the ship, so use the next biggest naval guns ever conceived.

[Mr Bojangles]

Hey guys, I need some help crunching some calculations, I'm trying to determine the amount of explosive force a projectile, let's say a ferrous tungsten shell, weighing 7 tons fired at a velocity of 0.1% the speed of light, how much energy would be generated from such an impact, measurements in either tons or kilotons. Also this is hard vacuum, so no air resistance.

I'm currently trying to determine the best ratio for one of the warships I'm using in concept for a story I'm trying to write up, its proving kind of annoying, regardless, I figure the heaviest warship's going to need one of the heaviest guns around so stick, 2 helical main guns with 80cm gun might do.

Also I need some help determining how much energy a 510mm rail gun firing 1,950 kg shells at 0.01% the speed of light would impact with. Gotta draw up the turret guns for the ship, so use the next biggest naval guns ever conceived.

Since your shells are traveling at far, far less than c, you can just use the standard kinetic energy calculation: KE = 0.5 * m * v^2.

[Ender's Dream]

Funny enough the secondary guns on the heavy cruiser design I've been working on has a total force of 2,094.375107 kilotons of energy, that's kind of ridiculous for a shell the size of a flipping car. Which there are six of these guns on the ship I've designed, 2 X 3 turret guns on staboard and portside.

The main guns apparently spit out 75,182.675086 megatons per shot, which is absurdly high in terms of firepower.

Umm, what's the total energy output on Loroi warships, per gun?

[icekatze]

hi hi

75 gigatons isn't that big. It's only just shy of annihilating 2 tons of antimatter with 2 tons of matter. Not quite up to glassing the entire surface of a planet in a single shot.

[Mr Bojangles]

Funny enough the secondary guns on the heavy cruiser design I've been working on has a total force of 2,094.375107 kilotons of energy, that's kind of ridiculous for a shell the size of a flipping car. Which there are six of these guns on the ship I've designed, 2 X 3 turret guns on staboard and portside.

The main guns apparently spit out 75,182.675086 megatons per shot, which is absurdly high in terms of firepower.

Umm, what's the total energy output on Loroi warships, per gun?

You know, I don't know if we've actually discussed weapon energy output. The Wave-Loom Device may be in that range, but most shipboard weapons are probably much, much less. To paraphrase a certain game, Sir Isaac Newton is a deadly son of a bitch.

hi hi

75 gigatons isn't that big. It's only just shy of annihilating 2 tons of antimatter with 2 tons of matter. Not quite up to glassing the entire surface of a planet in a single shot.

"So, you turned a mountain into a crater? Pshaw, a mere trifle."

[Ender's Dream]

Jeez I think I'll have to reserve this level of firepower for a capital sized warships, not the a heavy cruiser. I think I'll draw my guns on a different scale for those ships.

Two large forward prow mounted guns and a pair of smaller guns afixed along a rotating arm control, loaded with 2 ton projectiles, they'll do the trick alright, at least in terms of matching ships of similar weight and size.

The standard sized UN Earth Federation warship would probably need to be around 458 meters, two pronged helix hull design of 181 meters and a width of 158, crewed by 980 personnel including marines. Powered by mutli-fusion induction drives, total output I'm still thinking about. So realistically, I feel maxiing out the firepower on this would put it around a few megatons at most, since projectiles any larger would exceed most ships in science fiction in terms of sheer firepower to size of ships.

I'm not even counting Star Trek or Stargate, they've got excuses beyond belief there.