WIP Discussion (Part 1!)

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Werra
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Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)

Post by Werra »

It might not make any practical difference with how the Umiak use torpedoes. Faced with equal forces, Umiak torpedoes seem to do damage extremely rarely. Those that do don't connect but explode close enough. If a dozen torpedoes target a fighter or shuttle operating close by the aimed at target, that's good enough, as the Loroi have to expend effort to catch the torpedoes soon enough then anyway.

Next question: Did the crew bring a spare space suit for Alex for emergencies and will they make him wear his space romper like a good boy?

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sunphoenix
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Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)

Post by sunphoenix »

entity2636 wrote:Sunphoenix - you have the (unfair) advantage of having seen pages 142 and 143 while I haven't. Indeed, she could just as well be talking about any number of things, but her believing all this is somehow Alex's fault and confronting him about it just seems more natural to me. If it ends up not being the case and Tempo is floating closer to the pilot's console to get a clearer picture of their situation and taking command of the mission (she is the most senior officer on board across all the castes represented and the one closest to the command branch), I will be even happier.
'Shrug' I don't see how my spending $2.00 a page to support a comic I really enjoy is an "unfair" advantage... but ignoring that... I don't see how Tempo could possibly conjecture the Umiak attack was in any way Alex's fault. If the Umiak went to all the trouble 'mock-up" some loroid spy.... why in the world would they target him with a lethal barrage of torpedos before he gets to anyplace he could actually find Intel to feed them? How would the Umiak even know he was on the shuttle....they certainly did not tell the loroi to send the spy on a shuttle to their system Depot just so they could blow him up with a barrage of torpedos!?! That makes no common sense! The Umiak are clearly trying to prevent any loroi ships from escaping the star system to report on thier invasion incursion fleet's advance!
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Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)

Post by icekatze »

hi hi
sunphoenix wrote:'Shrug' I don't see how my spending $2.00 a page to support a comic I really enjoy is an "unfair" advantage.
If someone is trying to speculate on something they haven't seen, with people who haven't seen it, and someone else comes into the discussion with future knowledge, then the people who don't have future knowledge can't make informed responses.

In a different context, someone could buy an advanced baseball bat and play baseball with others, but if they're playing a game with people who don't also have advanced baseball bats, it's not exactly a fair contest.

novius
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Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)

Post by novius »

To clear up a few things now:

First, Kikitik-27 most likely had seen Alex on the Tempest's bridge during the banter between it (him?) and Stillstorm unless the camera angle was quite narrow and Alex remained out of view.

But still, the Umiak have to assume that SG51 picked up something valuable from the wreck, and that there's something the Loroi wouldn't want to let fall into Umiak claws since they blasted the wreck into pieces as soon as they had to retreat.

While the Umiak offensive may have been already underway, there'd have been enough possibilities for Kikitik-27 to inform the rest of the approaching fleet that SG51 may be a priority target because of highly important cargo/intel on board. After all, he himself followed SG51 all the way from Naam to Leido.

Then the Umiak watched a shuttle on a rendesvous course with a passing frigate, and backtracking its trajectory would lead them back to SG51. So the reasoning is that the Loroi must be shipping something - or someone - deeper into their own territory. Something they most probably have picked up from the wreck and - again - deemed too important to lose or risk in a battle.

Talon's rant over the comms might just have been a confirmation of what the Umiak assumed at that point.

As for the torpedoes being fired, the gunship crew itself or some targeting algorithm may have decided that two torpedoes might be enough to finish off the shuttle, and neither considered the possibility of Talon's daredevil flying.


So yes, Tempo might be in a right funk and being the Mizol she is could see conspiracies and treachery everywhere and give Talon (and maybe later Alex) the Third Degree, and lack of evidence would be just an incentive for her to dig further.

But often enough things just are what they look like and they had the worst of luck.

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Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)

Post by novius »

GeoModder wrote:From the look of things, gravity in the shuttle seems restored.
At least, both Tempo and Fireblade seem to be walking rather then floating in zero-gravity.
Second to last panel of 143, Tempo's pose suggests that they're still floating. Most likely retaining an upright position relative to the "up" direction as indicated by the interior is a common convention while operationg in zero-g amongst the Loroi as well.

After all, it would be difficult to operate machinery and consoles while being upside down for starters, wouldn't it?

In addition, Talon advised the others to play possum for the time being. Cut down energy emissions and consumption, mimic a floating rock. And I bet that means cutting artificial gravity on purpose as well.

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Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)

Post by Arioch »

novius wrote:First, Kikitik-27 most likely had seen Alex on the Tempest's bridge during the banter between it (him?) and Stillstorm unless the camera angle was quite narrow and Alex remained out of view.
Stillstorm's comm image is shown on pages 122, 127, 130 and 137. The couch where Alex was sitting is not in view.
novius wrote:But still, the Umiak have to assume that SG51 picked up something valuable from the wreck, and that there's something the Loroi wouldn't want to let fall into Umiak claws since they blasted the wreck into pieces as soon as they had to retreat.
I'm not sure that's quite so obvious. The Loroi defended the wreckage against steep odds and destroyed it once the position became untenable; this only reveals that they were still looking for something, and/or considered the wreckage itself valuable. I don't think it necessarily reveals anything about what they had already found; if anything, it suggests that what they had already found was perhaps not all that valuable, or they might have run right away. We can infer that Kikitik-27 is very clever, but he doesn't have Sith script-reading powers; he may suspect that the Loroi have something useful, but he can't know for certain.
novius wrote:While the Umiak offensive may have been already underway, there'd have been enough possibilities for Kikitik-27 to inform the rest of the approaching fleet that SG51 may be a priority target because of highly important cargo/intel on board. After all, he himself followed SG51 all the way from Naam to Leido.
How? Kikitik-27 is not in Leido; he's still in Sala 101. The Umiak crasher force came through Rallis. The two fleets followed different paths that do not cross (until Leido).
novius wrote:Talon's rant over the comms might just have been a confirmation of what the Umiak assumed at that point.
The Loroi are not transmitting in the clear; their communications with other Union units are encrypted.
novius wrote:As for the torpedoes being fired, the gunship crew itself or some targeting algorithm may have decided that two torpedoes might be enough to finish off the shuttle, and neither considered the possibility of Talon's daredevil flying.
Note that the torpedoes did not acquire the shuttle until shortly before impact, and Talon's response to the news was "Figures," rather than surprise. Umiak torpedoes are fired in large numbers and are deliberately heterogeneous in performance and behavior; if you waggle a drive plume in front of a large group of them, it's very likely that a few will lock on. There were probably something like 100 torpedoes in the salvo; those that we see striking the station were just the first to arrive.
novius wrote:So yes, Tempo might be in a right funk and being the Mizol she is could see conspiracies and treachery everywhere and give Talon (and maybe later Alex) the Third Degree, and lack of evidence would be just an incentive for her to dig further.
Or, she might look displeased because a) it looks like there's a decent chance that they're about to die, and/or b) it looks like there's a decent chance that Loroi are about to lose the war. But it can always be a conspiracy! :D

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Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)

Post by sunphoenix »

Yeah, I think Alex is getting a full front seat view of how pressed to the Breaking limits the Loroi are in this war! An undetected and unexpected "Gate-Crasher" Fleet is Very Bad news for the Loroi.. they had only two edge against the Umiak onslaught.. their 'Farseer's' ability to detect them coming long before they got there and their longer effective range particle-beam weaponry. Without those against a race that is literally willing to kill their own populations of inhabited worlds just to keep up war production... no one could stand against that! "It is impossible to protect yourself from a enemy willing to die to get you!"

This "Gatecrasher Fleet" is basically a suicide bomb...the Umiak onboard those ships have little to nothing to return too...except starvation and poisoned worlds...they MUST get new worlds to plunder or Die!

I think Tempo being a little or even a lot frustrated and stoically facing a very likely death is most appropriate they are in grim straits with the Gatecrasher Fleet pouring through this breach in the Loroi defensive line.
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Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)

Post by Werra »

Arioch wrote:We can infer that Kikitik-27 is very clever, but he doesn't have Sith script-reading powers; he may suspect that the Loroi have something useful, but he can't know for certain.
Well, they should have the same SOS messages the Loroi got. If they have those and flight data of a shuttle making a hurried pick-up it's reasonable to guess survivor(s). It wouldn't shock me if they even have pretty high-def pictures of Alex. But that depends on the proplyd and what kind of telescopes the Umiak have, of course.

If they also have the data the Loroi had on page 63, the vector of the wreck and energy signatures of the shots, guessing the jump vector the Bellarmine came in shouldn't be too hard. That leaves two questions. Where did that ship come from and how did it get to Naam, one jump from the Loroi borders without being intercepted?

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Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)

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Werra wrote:Well, they should have the same SOS messages the Loroi got. If they have those and flight data of a shuttle making a hurried pick-up it's reasonable to guess survivor(s). It wouldn't shock me if they even have pretty high-def pictures of Alex. But that depends on the proplyd and what kind of telescopes the Umiak have, of course.

If they also have the data the Loroi had on page 63, the vector of the wreck and energy signatures of the shots, guessing the jump vector the Bellarmine came in shouldn't be too hard. That leaves two questions. Where did that ship come from and how did it get to Naam, one jump from the Loroi borders without being intercepted?
The Umiak forces in Leido don't know a thing about what happened in Naam. Only Kikitik-27 and members of his fleet were in a position to make educated guesses.
For the fleet that entered Leido through the Rallis jump zone, Highland 7 was just a target of opportunity.

I think it likely the Umiak in Naam have less detailed archived data then the Loroi since the bulk of their forces was hiding in the proplyd during the Bellarmine's destruction. Unless of course her attacker was an Umiak vessel, which could make Kikitik-27 communication with Stillstorm a bluff.
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Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)

Post by sunphoenix »

Kikitik-27's Reaction to the wreak of the Bell does not really support the idea that the Umiak blew the 'Bell' up... there was nothing gain by bargaining for the Loroi to leave unmolested if they surrendered the wreck of the ship...if it were perceived as of any importance the Umiak would have secured it when they blew it up. Heck the ONLY reason the Loroi found the 'Bell' at all was because of Alex's transmissions. Clearly... some third party, who is STILL behind the scenes manipulating things, blew up the 'Bell' ~ specifically to keep humanity from making contact with either the Loroi or the Umiak.
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Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)

Post by Krulle »

That must've been the Arilou then, in another atempt to alter our *smell*, so *they* won't find us.

Would explain a lot... Except I saw no range-limited laser....

*seeing myself out*
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Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)

Post by novius »

Collaborateurs and traitors are a thing in many, maybe in all wars. And Tempo herself implied that the member races do have their own agenda and would use Alex for their own benefit, rather than the Union at a whole.

So yes, Tempo's suspicions about treachery - whether they're based on fact or not - are sort of justified, and it might not necessarily be a third party who blew up the Bellarmine firstplace, but some discontent element within the Union or the Hierarchy.

But, as said, she's a Mizol. A fairly high-ranked to boot. Seeing conspiracies and backhanded deals left and right are part of her job description of her 'second line of work', next to diplomacy. Being a spook is a job where paranoia is not a hindrance, but a vital part for that line of work :)

She is not a nice person. Alex would do well to be extra careful around her. Fireblade, she made it clear what she thinks of him - not much - but Tempo is that sort of person who smiles while she hides a dagger in her back...

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Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)

Post by GeoModder »

sunphoenix wrote:Clearly... some third party, who is STILL behind the scenes manipulating things, blew up the 'Bell' ~ specifically to keep humanity from making contact with either the Loroi or the Umiak.
There's no evidence whatsoever to say that Bellarmine's attacker was there or acted to 'manipulate' things.
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Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)

Post by folti »

sunphoenix wrote:Yeah, I think Alex is getting a full front seat view of how pressed to the Breaking limits the Loroi are in this war! An undetected and unexpected "Gate-Crasher" Fleet is Very Bad news for the Loroi.. they had only two edge against the Umiak onslaught.. their 'Farseer's' ability to detect them coming long before they got there and their longer effective range particle-beam weaponry. Without those against a race that is literally willing to kill their own populations of inhabited worlds just to keep up war production... no one could stand against that! "It is impossible to protect yourself from a enemy willing to die to get you!"

This "Gatecrasher Fleet" is basically a suicide bomb...the Umiak onboard those ships have little to nothing to return too...except starvation and poisoned worlds...they MUST get new worlds to plunder or Die!
The crews are "fleet" Umiak, who have been born and raised on space stations and spend nearly all of their lives on said stations and ships. They don't have worlds to return to (and as a low gravity adaptation of an already low gravity species, they don't really want to).

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Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)

Post by Krulle »

GeoModder wrote:
sunphoenix wrote:Clearly... some third party, who is STILL behind the scenes manipulating things, blew up the 'Bell' ~ specifically to keep humanity from making contact with either the Loroi or the Umiak.
There's no evidence whatsoever to say that Bellarmine's attacker was there or acted to 'manipulate' things.
There's no indication to the contrary anyway.
So far it seems unlikely that the Bellarmine attacker was Umiak or Loroi.
So, what/who was it then?


Anyway, is there any "word of god" if we'll ever find out who hit the Bellarmine and why, if we ever get to the comic's end?
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charred steppes, borders of territories: page 59,
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Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)

Post by Zorg56 »

It was historians.

The question is, why they help umiak...

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Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)

Post by Krulle »

That's the rumour I read here everywhere.
And likely to be true, given the information we now know and can speculate on.

But I want to know if we'll get ever get the information who did it and why in-comic sometime.
Otherwise this event will leave the story somewhat open to critique.
A kind of Deus Ex Machina to make the story run.
The shuttle could've had a simple accident (like flying into a piece of dust/debris) instead.
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charred steppes, borders of territories: page 59,
jump-map of local stars: page 121, larger map in Loroi: page 118,
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Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)

Post by Werra »

I'm still not fully discounting a Loroi plot. There can easily be factions doing clandestine operations with unknown tech.

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Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)

Post by Zorg56 »

How and why some loroi can betray other loroi?

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Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)

Post by sunphoenix »

Zorg56 wrote:It was historians.

The question is, why they help umiak...
Honestly.. I'm not sure it was the historians... I'm feeling it might actually be the Soia-Liron. Who are not so "gone" as they have let everyone believe they are... not in the force as they were millennia ago... but quietly monitoring their, now feral pet Loroi, for some purpose.. or perhaps still engaged in some cosmic struggle with whatever force may be behind the Umiak rise.

But I do not think the "Bel's" attackers are any actors we have thus far seen... because its space opera at its best. Though this comic is glacially slow ...by artist need.. I think a GRAND tale is unfolding. The Historians likely know more than they are telling... but I don't think they are behind the destruction of the "Bell".

This is of course ALL Pure Speculation... but as a writer of character stories myself... I'd not hint at the 'true' enemy of a conflict on this grand a scale so soon either.
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