Page 156: Dun... dun... DUUUUUUN

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orion1836
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Re: Page 156: Dun... dun... DUUUUUUN

Post by orion1836 »

CrimsonFALKE wrote:
Arioch wrote:Beryl can't read English, exactly -- at least not yet. She knows those letters that Alex wrote down the Trade equivalents for, and she's clever enough to recognize some words she's heard aloud (such as "Bellarmine" and "Jardin") and to sound out words for which she knows the letters, but she has no way yet of knowing what they mean. But it's true that she can remember what she sees, and may be able to put things together later.

Yeah that is not very comforting given how quickly she was able to understand human time calculations via chemistry I think text messaging English won't be a challenge.
Beryl: S - E - N - D - - - N - U - D - E - S

novius
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Re: Page 156: Dun... dun... DUUUUUUN

Post by novius »

Thing is, Beryl is frighteningly perceptive. She quickly picked up on the english spelling (or what Englishmen think to be 'spelling'), and quickly picks up on Alex's moods. It would be very difficult for him to keep things from her for long

On the other hand, as a scientist, she's more prone to be a free thinker and quicker to listen to a second opinion. That might not mean much by Loroi standards, but still.

novius
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Re: Page 156: Dun... dun... DUUUUUUN

Post by novius »

Another intepretation of the events comes to my mind.

First, the late addition of Tempo to his entourage on the way to Seren was a bit ... too smooth. It's not just one, but two bridge officers leaving the ship in the midst of a hotbed, which is usually not a wise choice of action. Beryl as a Listel is quite understandable, as a scientist she's not exactly a frontline fighter or strategist. Tempo on the other hand might be much more important to the ship's operations and helpful in intelligence warfare.

Second, most of the people who came into close contact to Alex found themselves on the shuttle. Starting with Talon and Spiral, then Fireblade, Cloud, and lastly Beryl and Tempo. The only ones missing (of note) would be the sickbay and the rest of the bridge crew.

That leads me to think that Stillstorm might have sent Tempo along with some additional orders in her backpack, something that might be detrimental to Alex's wellbeing. As in, have him and maybe the other passengers being processed at a clandestine interrogation facility, or helping with the interrogation. Stillstorm simply cleared out all evidence of the Bellarmine having been there, ordered the affected people to keep their mouths shut and maybe even have her more unruly crewmembers (like Talon, and maybe Beryl) shipped off to a rather grim fate.

Yet, they didn't count on the construct to be there as well for the ride, actually reading the orders and deciding that helping Alex along would be its best course of action to destabilize that rather oppressive regime.

Though... whether the construct and the Barsam have a kinder fate in stock for him or not, that might be another question.

Overkill Engine
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Re: Page 156: Dun... dun... DUUUUUUN

Post by Overkill Engine »

The Historian construct could be telling the absolute truth.

Parts of it that is. Which is a problem of its own. Deception via omission of facts inconvenient to the speaker is a thing.

Trying to manipulate Alex into not gathering as much information about his situation as he can points to the bytes being less than benevolent themselves.

novius
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Re: Page 156: Dun... dun... DUUUUUUN

Post by novius »

Overkill Engine wrote:The Historian construct could be telling the absolute truth.
Everyone could be telling the absolute truth. As in...
  1. Tempo: "We are very interested in your species." (as a lab animal and on a dissection table)
  2. Construct: "The Loroi are NOT your friends." (we aren't, either. Nor the Barsam. You might have better luck with the Umiak.)
  3. Stillstorm: "Words are tools of deception." (that's why Tempo talks so much)
  4. Beryl: "I'll be taking very good care of you." (Reminder: Lab animal needs feeding and watering twice a day. Check for malnutrition)

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CrimsonFALKE
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Re: Page 156: Dun... dun... DUUUUUUN

Post by CrimsonFALKE »

Beryl: S - E - N - D - - - N - U - D - E - S
Wonderful how will a warrior will respond to the Indian man online.

Highlord
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Re: Page 156: Dun... dun... DUUUUUUN

Post by Highlord »

And Alex finally remembers that he's the sole surviving officer in hostile territory. Has he not received any sort of counterintelligence training at all?
I can't be the only one that's taken note of Beryl and the other becoming so personable and nice so quickly.

novius
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Re: Page 156: Dun... dun... DUUUUUUN

Post by novius »

Highlord wrote:And Alex finally remembers that he's the sole surviving officer in hostile territory. Has he not received any sort of counterintelligence training at all?
I can't be the only one that's taken note of Beryl and the other becoming so personable and nice so quickly.
Beryl and Talon, you mean?

Though, first, if we have to assume that Tempo is actually lying - as said, Loroi almost expect people to be lying as soon as they speak - she could have done it from the very start, with saying that he's been the only survivor. Such a lie would benefit her with making him more malleable.

But, the nature of the Bellarmine mission requires Alex to put at least a minimum of trust into the species they meet up with. If he has to assume that even the basic foundations of a possible alliance would be a lie, that mission was already doomed as soon as he had been brought on board.

At the moment, it pretty much looks that way, if not for these two officers getting rather personal with him providing a silver lining on a very dark cloud.

Though... of course all of them could by lying, scheming bastards, and those two simply playing a different angle.

raistlin34
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Re: Page 156: Dun... dun... DUUUUUUN

Post by raistlin34 »

Don't worry, Alex. The Historian A.I is smart enough to fill the screen with cute cat memes to disarm even Beryl with sheer cuteness.

Highlord
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Re: Page 156: Dun... dun... DUUUUUUN

Post by Highlord »

novius wrote:
Highlord wrote:And Alex finally remembers that he's the sole surviving officer in hostile territory. Has he not received any sort of counterintelligence training at all?
I can't be the only one that's taken note of Beryl and the other becoming so personable and nice so quickly.
Beryl and Talon, you mean?

Though, first, if we have to assume that Tempo is actually lying - as said, Loroi almost expect people to be lying as soon as they speak - she could have done it from the very start, with saying that he's been the only survivor. Such a lie would benefit her with making him more malleable.

But, the nature of the Bellarmine mission requires Alex to put at least a minimum of trust into the species they meet up with. If he has to assume that even the basic foundations of a possible alliance would be a lie, that mission was already doomed as soon as he had been brought on board.

At the moment, it pretty much looks that way, if not for these two officers getting rather personal with him providing a silver lining on a very dark cloud.

Though... of course all of them could by lying, scheming bastards, and those two simply playing a different angle.
In diplomacy, intelligence gathering, and most especially both of those in any military capacity, Always assume the other party is lying to you. Also assume that all of them are lying scheming bastards putting on their best face, that all of them are doing everything in their power to screw you, and doing so with a smile and an outward facade of happy geniality. Because, in all honesty, you should be doing the exact same thing.

Politics is war by other means, and all war is deception.

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Werra
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Re: Page 156: Dun... dun... DUUUUUUN

Post by Werra »

I don't think any of the Loroi are directly lieing to Alex face. That doesn't seem to fit their culture. What seems to be happening are evasive answers.
On page 106 for example Alex wonders whether the Loroi even want to meet humanity. Tempo, instead of feeding Alex a lie, tells him that the Loroi want to learn as much as possible about humanity. The dialogue only sounds like a firm refutation of Alex worry, but learning is not meeting.

But that requires the evader to be very fluent in the language. So Alex might be safe talking to all but Torrai, Mizol and perhabs Listel.

novius
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Post by novius »

Werra wrote:I don't think any of the Loroi are directly lieing to Alex face. That doesn't seem to fit their culture. What seems to be happening are evasive answers.
On page 106 for example Alex wonders whether the Loroi even want to meet humanity. Tempo, instead of feeding Alex a lie, tells him that the Loroi want to learn as much as possible about humanity. The dialogue only sounds like a firm refutation of Alex worry, but learning is not meeting.

But that requires the evader to be very fluent in the language. So Alex might be safe talking to all but Torrai, Mizol and perhabs Listel.
We as the readers know that Loroi in general don't tell outright lies. But if you have to question the credibility of that statement alone (which Alex is wise to do so), it would put everything they say in doubt. And even if the Loroi only lie by omission - which might even be the socially acceptable way for Loroi to bend the truth - Tempo saying that they're interested in Alex's species doesn't necessarily mean that they're interested in open talks with humans.

Though... it doesn't require someone to be fluent in any language. It might even be beneficial if the listener actually has to assume you're not well versed in making speeches, then the listener would more easily gloss over some inconsistencies in the wording and automatically fill in the blanks with assumptions you want him to make.

Twice now, Alex got reasons to assume that the Loroi have ulterior motives.
  1. Shortly after Tempo cut off Ambassador Mozin - he outright tells Tempo that he thinks she's not telling the full story: http://www.well-of-souls.com/outsider/outsider067.html
  2. The scene you mentioned where Alex mentions a perceived lack of interest on the Loroi side: http://www.well-of-souls.com/outsider/outsider106.html
In addition, him being chucked away in the brig and being isolated may have served to purpose to prevent him from asking more questions the Loroi couldn't answer in a satisfactory manner.

So yes, while the Historians may have their own agenda, the construct could very much be spot on with its suggestions that Alex should neither volunteer more information and not even ask for information himself.

To add yet another level of deception, it could very much be that Beryl herself might be genuinely friendly towards Alex, but that she herself has been used by the likes of Tempo to keep him more tractable.

Sounds like the Umiak would have indeed been the better choice. With them, you'd actually know what you have to expect. :)

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Zarya
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Re: Page 156: Dun... dun... DUUUUUUN

Post by Zarya »

I am still bothered by the disclosure that Pocket Historian was already resident in the Bellarmine databanks. An infection via the Orgus indeed seems likely. Historians may even have been aware about the position of the Earth ship entering the Naam system prior to its destruction, while for some reason the Pocket Historian appears to want to limit a free exchange of information between the lonely human and the Loroi.

Voitan
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Re: Page 156: Dun... dun... DUUUUUUN

Post by Voitan »

icekatze wrote:From our perspective as an audience, with insider knowledge about the Loroi, their history and all of that, the Historian construct's warning message is a little bit concerning, but not in the way it intended. While it isn't a smoking gun, it does slightly raise the plausibility of some "the Historians are behind it all," theories. I'm not quite sure why the construct is trying to drive a wedge between Alex and the Loroi, but I'll be really surprised if Beryl and Talon turn out to be villains. (From a narrative point of view.)
Of course the Historians are the culprits, they have the type of weapon that destroyed the Belarmine, while having the tech aptitude to hide their ships.

I'll have to agree with everyone that lying to Beryl would be a bad idea, but immediately outing the Historian wouldn't be my move if I wanted to get more info on everyone. If I was in his shoes, I'd just tell Beryl that it was just one of the "hand displays" from his ship. Saying "note pads" might get her interest, saying "pad" or "pda" would require further explanation, and possibly get her interest. Any response that might lose her interest, or dampen her excitement without lying to her would be in Alex's interests.

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SVlad
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Re: Page 156: Dun... dun... DUUUUUUN

Post by SVlad »

Actually, everything that Alex knows about Loroi is told him by Loroi themselves. So he can't be sure there actually was a battle, the Barsam ambassador, the invasion in Leido and the destruction of station. Everything he saw was just images on the screens.
The high octane paranoia fuel.
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Werra
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Re: Page 156: Dun... dun... DUUUUUUN

Post by Werra »

It's not quite so bleak. He knows that there was a battle in the system just when the Bell was shot down. He also knows that it took the Loroi several hours to find him. The predicament they're in righ now also definitely is real. So there are a lot of indicators that the story is true.
I mean, if we want to be negativ, Alex could wake up in the medbay during his interrogation.

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icekatze
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Re: Page 156: Dun... dun... DUUUUUUN

Post by icekatze »

hi hi
Zarya wrote:An infection via the Orgus indeed seems likely.
With their technology level, that's not impossible, but if that were true, it raises a number of awkward questions.

Why wasn't the construct already on the PAD? Why organize an expedition only to sabotage it? If they wanted to sabotage the mission, why not detonate the fuel in the middle of nowhere where they'd never be found, or alter the coordinates and lead them in the wrong direction? How did they get to Orgus space to infect their computers, did the paranoid Umiak allow it? If they're able to move through Umiak space/systems without permission, why isn't the Umiak war effort totally sabotaged? If they're able to move through Umiak space/systems with permission, why not just send humans straight to Umiak space?
Voitan wrote:Of course the Historians are the culprits, they have the type of weapon that destroyed the Belarmine, while having the tech aptitude to hide their ships.
It seems perhaps a bit more likely now, but there are still a lot of unanswered questions that keep me from thinking it is a certainty.

The Umiak have the type of weapon that destroyed the Bellarmine and, apparently, now the technology to conceal their movement from farseers. There's still a possibility of an unknown third party. If the Historians did destroy the Bellarmine though, I am at a loss to figure out their motives. The one remotely plausible explanation I can think of involves the Historians having made a deal with the Umiak to let them win in exchange for being left alone, and the Bellarmine being in the wrong place at the wrong time to potentially ID them being somewhere they weren't supposed to be. That seems unusually proactive for a group that pretty much never leaves their territory, but if true, the Loroi are in an even worse position than it already seems.

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Re: Page 156: Dun... dun... DUUUUUUN

Post by boldilocks »

Zarya wrote:Why wasn't the construct already on the PAD? Why organize an expedition only to sabotage it? If they wanted to sabotage the mission, why not detonate the fuel in the middle of nowhere where they'd never be found, or alter the coordinates and lead them in the wrong direction? How did they get to Orgus space to infect their computers, did the paranoid Umiak allow it?
Perhaps they couldn't stop the organization of the expedition, or the construct was not able to infect both ships (ie, the earthbound construct already infiltrated the umiak mission, but couldn't destroy the loroi mission ship either because
1) that would be too obvious and it would raise too many questions or
2) humanity is too isolated from itself for it to be able to infect both ships.)
Zarya wrote:If they're able to move through Umiak space/systems without permission, why isn't the Umiak war effort totally sabotaged?
It might be in the Historians' interest to keep the war going as a stalemate in an effort of having both upstart races exhaust and eventually even destabilize themselves permanently. The humans could be considered a useful tool in this regard, or an unwelcome interference.
Seems strange that the historians would support a human/umiak alliance though, as the umiak are starting to make inroads towards historian systems?

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SVlad
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Re: Page 156: Dun... dun... DUUUUUUN

Post by SVlad »

Historians may have different competitive acting groups with different goals. We have no information about their state structure. So some of them may help Umiak, and others - fight with them. And of all known races only Historians can give Umiak ships with lotai - AI controlled ships. That's also only known way to practically make ship invisible for farseers.
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Re: Page 156: Dun... dun... DUUUUUUN

Post by icekatze »

hi hi
boldilocks wrote:Perhaps they couldn't stop the organization of the expedition, or the construct was not able to infect both ships
There were no discrete Loroi and Umiak missions. All five scout ships were sent to different points, but they were all using the Prabhu as their tanker and relay. If someone were to sabotage the Prabhu, none of the scouts would return home.

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