How can the Loroi win?

Discussion regarding the Outsider webcomic, science, technology and science fiction.

Moderator: Outsider Moderators

User avatar
CF2
Posts: 179
Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2017 5:02 pm
Location: On your PC as a background program.

Re: How can the Loroi win?

Post by CF2 »

asaenvolk wrote:"Talker" is most certainly a blowhard, even if his race in general isn't, that one is.
Pride comes before a fall, is it?

As I see it, with this most recent assault proving successful to an extent, it's likely the Umiak will seek to press their advantage before it can be countered. The trick then will be countering them so thoroughly that you not only nullify their efforts, but counter any gains they've made, and strike a crippling blow against them in the process.

If the Loroi adopted a more guarded fleet stance, pulling interdiction fleets from the steppes, that would leave the Umiak more certain that they had the Loroi on the ropes, and probably more willing to over-commit to achieve another big KO assault before the Loroi can prepare non-farsensing defenses to warn against unforeseen attacks. The thing is that high industrial capacity is not instantaneous industrial capacity, the Umiak can build ships fast but not fast enough to strike before Loroi prepare, so if the Umiak want another bite at the apple before the Loroi are better prepared they'll need to put ships held in defense into a new gatecrasher force.

The next assault is the one that will change the course of the war.

The Loroi need a lot of luck and a solid prediction of where the enemy fleet will be, and then they need to catch them en route and destroy them completely. Annihilate them all as they jump into system, and then send that fleet to go destroy the Umiak worlds while they're in a weakened state of defense. Making a death-stack from the bulk of the Loroi fleet seems like the best way to ensure you have the firepower to pull this kind of counter-offensive off, especially if the enemy thinks you're on the defensive and not able to attempt an attack.

Since the Loroi can't both defend and attack because their industry simply can't manage it, they've got to be clever and desperate. Strike with almost everything and cripple the Umiak war machine.
Image

User avatar
danuis
Posts: 27
Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2017 9:47 am

Re: How can the Loroi win?

Post by danuis »

The Loroi halt this offensive, hold the line, then follow Alex back to Humanti space, strip-mine and churn out whatever they can, and then attack the Umiak from the flank or even rear by following the Orgus. Human forces are sent to bolster home-sector defense. A two-pronged attack catches the Umiak off guard and they quickly vie for a cease-fire; a cease-fire that the Loroi begrudgingly accept because they don't have the forces to out-right occupy or destroy the Umiak.

Krulle
Posts: 1413
Joined: Wed May 20, 2015 9:14 am

Re: How can the Loroi win?

Post by Krulle »

I wonder if the Loroi will ever find out how thoroughly the Historians have inavded their and the Umiak's computer systems.
Once they find out, they'll be demanding why the Historians haven't been havocking the umiak's systems....
Vote for Outsider on TWC: Image
charred steppes, borders of territories: page 59,
jump-map of local stars: page 121, larger map in Loroi: page 118,
System view Leido Crossroads: page 123, after the battle page 195

User avatar
Zarya
Posts: 202
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 2:32 am

Re: How can the Loroi win?

Post by Zarya »

@krulle – yeah, you may be onto something.

User avatar
GeoModder
Posts: 1038
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:31 pm

Re: How can the Loroi win?

Post by GeoModder »

It might take another generation before possible Historian viruses percolate through enough Hierarchy data systems to make sure coverage is near 100%... and then activate them.
After all, we're talking about a nation that spans over 500 light years wide.
Image

boldilocks
Posts: 669
Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2017 3:27 pm

Re: How can the Loroi win?

Post by boldilocks »

Are we certain that Loroi and Umiak systems are that easy to infiltrate?

User avatar
Zarya
Posts: 202
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 2:32 am

Re: How can the Loroi win?

Post by Zarya »

We don’t know, yet :lol:

(the human systems were!)

boldilocks
Posts: 669
Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2017 3:27 pm

Re: How can the Loroi win?

Post by boldilocks »

Yeah, but humans have never met anything like the historians, and their tech isn't based on precursor technology that probably had met something like the historians.

Arent
Posts: 264
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2015 8:42 pm

Re: How can the Loroi win?

Post by Arent »

Krulle wrote:I wonder if the Loroi will ever find out how thoroughly the Historians have inavded their and the Umiak's computer systems.
Once they find out, they'll be demanding why the Historians haven't been havocking the umiak's systems....
According to the insider, the Historians were taken by surprise, when the Umiak attacked them. So, apparently, they are not that much up to date about their internal communication or fleet movements.

On the other side, however, it is suspicious that there was a kind of virus on board the Bellarmine & when they came across the battle between Loroi and Umiak a mysterious ship "happened" to show up and attack the Bellarmine. If that attack was deliberate, the attacker had to know who humans are & that they would show up in that system. The first suspect who might have had that knowledge would be the Historians.

User avatar
GeoModder
Posts: 1038
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:31 pm

Re: How can the Loroi win?

Post by GeoModder »

Arent wrote:
Krulle wrote:On the other side, however, it is suspicious that there was a kind of virus on board the Bellarmine & when they came across the battle between Loroi and Umiak a mysterious ship "happened" to show up and attack the Bellarmine. If that attack was deliberate, the attacker had to know who humans are & that they would show up in that system. The first suspect who might have had that knowledge would be the Historians.
AFAWK, there wasn't a virus aboard Bellarmine.
I thought the Historian Construct simply intruded upon salvaged data systems from Bellarmine's wreck.
Image

Arent
Posts: 264
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2015 8:42 pm

Re: How can the Loroi win?

Post by Arent »

GeoModder wrote:
Arent wrote:
Krulle wrote:On the other side, however, it is suspicious that there was a kind of virus on board the Bellarmine & when they came across the battle between Loroi and Umiak a mysterious ship "happened" to show up and attack the Bellarmine. If that attack was deliberate, the attacker had to know who humans are & that they would show up in that system. The first suspect who might have had that knowledge would be the Historians.
AFAWK, there wasn't a virus aboard Bellarmine.
I thought the Historian Construct simply intruded upon salvaged data systems from Bellarmine's wreck.
https://well-of-souls.com/outsider/outsider155.html

"This construct has been in the data banks aboard your ship."

-> I'm not exactly sure how this is meant. Maybe they also mean the Loroi ship. I don't exactly know.

boldilocks
Posts: 669
Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2017 3:27 pm

Re: How can the Loroi win?

Post by boldilocks »

The Bellarmine wasn't pulverized, and its data-systems aren't "power-off" intrusion protected, so it may have been aboard previously, though if that was the case it doesn't make sense that the same construct that's aboard the Barsam courier and is in the flowerpot is also the one that was aboard the Bellarmine, otherwise referring to itself as "this construct" doesn't make sense,

or

the construct snuck aboard bellarmine systems while the Loroi were searching it.

Angle
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2015 11:55 pm

Re: How can the Loroi win?

Post by Angle »

Or even just "The Loroi grabbed some of the data banks from the Bellarmine before the pulverized it." Or it might have just been referring to that stack of salvaged hard drives.

User avatar
Ithekro
Posts: 261
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2019 3:55 am

Re: How can the Loroi win?

Post by Ithekro »

One thing we aren't sure of yet is what the two side have built up since the last major offensive. The War Cruiser seems to be one of the Loroi's newest cruiser types, and its seems to be half the firepower of the battlecruisers and more than the heavy cruisers. Their Wave Loom forces seem to have heavily reduces unless there are ship classes missing from the Insider pages on the matter. If that page is the entire forces composition, they have only two Wave Loom armed ships, and one of them (Vortex) is falling back to support a nearby Strike Group, while the other is the Emperor's flagship.

The Umiak appear to have better screens than the Loroi, appear to have superior numbers of ships with larger numbers of shorter ranged, but relatively heavy plasma focuses. The Loroi's Pulse Cannons counter that somewhat, but their ships have relatively few of these in twin turret mounts with them mostly fielded on cruiser hulls, and having less of them on battleship hulls The larger ships are probably designed for close in brawling with the enemy, so they can afford to be armed with heavy blaster weapons instead, but with the pulse cannons there to soften up the enemy as they approach.

However, given the Umiak's use of Gunboats, missile platforms, and some superheavy units, its would seem reasonable for the Loroi to fit their fleets out with more long range firepower. Not only more Pulse Cannons, to snipe Gunboats before they get into range of their own weapons, but also the Wave Looms to take out the superheavy units, or if there is a amount of Area of Effect for that weapon, uses them to clear out groups of Gunboats as they are on the approach.

User avatar
Mr.Tucker
Posts: 303
Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2013 4:45 pm

Re: How can the Loroi win?

Post by Mr.Tucker »

Ithekro wrote:One thing we aren't sure of yet is what the two side have built up since the last major offensive. The War Cruiser seems to be one of the Loroi's newest cruiser types, and its seems to be half the firepower of the battlecruisers and more than the heavy cruisers. Their Wave Loom forces seem to have heavily reduces unless there are ship classes missing from the Insider pages on the matter. If that page is the entire forces composition, they have only two Wave Loom armed ships, and one of them (Vortex) is falling back to support a nearby Strike Group, while the other is the Emperor's flagship.

The Umiak appear to have better screens than the Loroi, appear to have superior numbers of ships with larger numbers of shorter ranged, but relatively heavy plasma focuses. The Loroi's Pulse Cannons counter that somewhat, but their ships have relatively few of these in twin turret mounts with them mostly fielded on cruiser hulls, and having less of them on battleship hulls The larger ships are probably designed for close in brawling with the enemy, so they can afford to be armed with heavy blaster weapons instead, but with the pulse cannons there to soften up the enemy as they approach.

However, given the Umiak's use of Gunboats, missile platforms, and some superheavy units, its would seem reasonable for the Loroi to fit their fleets out with more long range firepower. Not only more Pulse Cannons, to snipe Gunboats before they get into range of their own weapons, but also the Wave Looms to take out the superheavy units, or if there is a amount of Area of Effect for that weapon, uses them to clear out groups of Gunboats as they are on the approach.
Heavy and Superheavy units are uncommon. Smaller ships are ubiquitous, and likelier to be used in the attrition raids that have become SOP. Also, the Wave loom imposes some harsh penalties on the ships that use it.

User avatar
Zorg56
Posts: 196
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2018 10:59 am

Re: How can the Loroi win?

Post by Zorg56 »

Thats what i was talking about, you get loroi by surprise, deal giant amount of damage to unpreapared loroi, and pull them back when loroi reequip their ships with wave loom.
You achived 3 things:

1. Dealt giant amount of damage with battleships.

2. Dealt giant amount of damage with your khalkha fleets that went into loroi territory under cover from battleships.

3. Now loroi need to have wave loom in every squadron, that make their ships more espensive without significant increase of firepower against standard umiak fleets.

User avatar
Ithekro
Posts: 261
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2019 3:55 am

Re: How can the Loroi win?

Post by Ithekro »

I am under the impression the Wave Loom has somewhat of a Area of Effect in where its fired. Such a thing would be useful in taking out formations of gunboats. Especially if the newer model in the Emperor's flagship has dealt with at least some of the major drawbacks of the Wave Looms of the Vortex era (~25 years ago). And improved model should be able to fire more efficiently. Perhaps more often, with greater power/damage, or with a greater area of damage.

Mind you I'm thinking Wave Motion Gun (Space Battleship Yamato) as the example rather than the Macross Cannon (Macross), or Lightning Cannon (Babylon 5/Crusade).

The older Vortex era one would be more Yamato like.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vV0x4XHdbyc
(Note: They were aiming at the enemy base....they underestimated how powerful the weapon is...by a lot.)

The newer one? Andromeda like?
https://imgur.com/gallery/yVaVW/comment/987608861
(Note: I don't think they underestimated here, but they could target lock enemy ships with that spread to avoid friendlies...while also shooting THROUGH a moon. They vaporized the floating continent in the background in this shot as well)

User avatar
SaintofM
Posts: 163
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2019 8:01 pm
Location: In a Galaxy Far Far away

Re: How can the Loroi win?

Post by SaintofM »

Would it be fair to say this is similar to much of the wars in the last hundred years of present earth history where one or more involved party is fighting in a modern war in an outdated style? Yeah, yeah: aliens with magic s advance even Jardin is going "Magic," but hear me out.

Much of the first World War was all guts and glory from the heads of state, but most of the tactics that helped the European powers come to their level of power was the fact they were A.) using weapons designed to turn such tactics into bloodbaths such as machineguns, tanks, and poisoned gas; and B.) up until that point, most of their conflicts had been tween them (a highly developed people in technology, especially warfare) against a people that had been conquered or about to be conquered that lacked that tech edge. Now they were doing it on eachother, thus you had large areas of "no man's land" and victory counted in feet at times.

World War Two, much of the tech was now more improved, namly tanks. This was to the point that while a good chunk of cavalry units were actually men on horseback. The tanks, which were a minor support at best and just as fast as a fit and kitted soldier jogging, were now much faster, and had bigger and better guns. Now they were the terror every soldier learns to fear.

Even then you had major failings on on the armies that had a head start. Blitzkrieg is all about speed and surprise, and once you are forced to slow down you are screwed. Its like a cavalry heavy or speed heavy army in Warhammer Fantasy, Age of Sigmar, or 40k. The moment you can't keep moving you are stuck.

The other big risk is getting too far spreadout for proper supplies to get to you. The practitioners of Blitzrige may have had a mechanized cavalry, they were still using horses and wagons to carry much of the supplies. The Panzers were some of the most impressive tanks in history, but even they could only run so far on fumes and a swift kick from a jackboot.

Korea and Vietnam had a number of factors that didn't do the loosing side well. The US may have had a technology edge, they often lacked the tenacity and local knowledge of the location to use it effective. This made gorilla fighting all the more a viable action as playing fair is never in any proper rulebook. Things like the WW2 German Bouncing Betty and the infamous pungi sticks were simple and easy to get or make respectivly, and there was always another booby trap to get.

Korea, MaCarthur in his arrogance underestimated the number difference China would bring to the table.

Vietnam, the tech didn't always work. The M-16, one of the most lauded assault rifles, was a mess when it first showed up. What worked in controlled facilities and temperate climates did not work in Tropics. The fact they downgraded the powder quality before they were shipped out meant you also had weapons that james and gunked up more times than bot. Later models would include features like burst fire and quick clean.

Other failures are just, egh. Bottom plating for troop transports were so weak, soldiers prefered riding on top incase of land minds. Body armor was weak, heavy, and hot, and most either went without or cut it up so they didn't bake in the climate.

And with Irage 2, Samalia, Sudan, and a number of other armed conflicts in my time. The powers to be underestimate the enemy on the ground, don't care to send in the proper amounts of soldiers, gear, and equipment, and tell them to win anyways.

I still shudder at a couple of Afghanistan and Iraq veteran friends "kidney stone" stories. The amy method of curing them: Keep punching the kidney till they pass through.

Sorry if this is a bit rambly, but could any of this have been a factor in prolonging the war for the blue space babes?

As is, it seems the bugs seem to have quantity has its own quantety and throw bodies at the enemy till they run out of bullets as their solution, and it seems to be working pretty good for them.

User avatar
Arioch
Site Admin
Posts: 4486
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2011 4:19 am
Location: San Jose, CA
Contact:

Re: How can the Loroi win?

Post by Arioch »

In World War I, the simultaneous arrival of modern artillery, machine guns and aircraft did create the conditions for stalemate; artillery forced infantry to dig in, machine guns made prepared positions very difficult to assault, and aircraft reconnaissance made it almost impossible to outflank and surprise the enemy. This was a happenstance and not deliberate; on the contrary, none of the combatants' leaderships were really prepared for the change in tactics, and it was their insistence on using old tactics that led to the bloodbath. The arrival of tanks near the end of the war helped to break the stalemate, rather than making it worse. But a stalemate doesn't necessarily have to be a bloodbath; if both sides had just sat in their trenches, the casualty counts would have been much lower (though the majority of losses would still have been to disease in the trenches... but I digress).

In the Loroi-Umiak war, there are similarly natural conditions for stalemate; the limited nature of jump drive stacks the forces up at the border systems, and the Loroi Farsensing ability makes it very difficult to outflank these built up forces. The Umiak tactics of headlong assault are similar to Foch's WWI tactics in the sense that they are deliberately creating heavy casualties on both sides, believing that they are better able to sustain such casualties than the enemy. There is also a similarity in the sense that the Umiak seek a technological edge that can help break the stalemate.

Korea, Vietnam and the modern Middle Eastern interventions are different situations; they were proxy wars and "limited" wars: the limitations were political, not technological. The US did not lose in Vietnam because of problems with M-16's.

User avatar
Ithekro
Posts: 261
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2019 3:55 am

Re: How can the Loroi win?

Post by Ithekro »

So would this war be more the French-German front lines, or the German-Russian front lines in World War One? I can imagine the World War II German-Soviet lines being more back and forth along large regions of territory had the Germans not had....other problems (fronts) to deal with. There was a lot more movement in Russia since its mostly flat from Germany to the Urals. Great for tanks when its not raining or snowing. France has other issues including denser population centers leading to more rapid defense deployments and natural barriers....which didn't stop the Germans in 1940, but their momentum was halted in 1914, though in 1917-18 they managed to get it going again with troops that had been in Russia until the fresh American forces arrived to blunt the last offensive. The war grinding to a halt as governments and economies fell apart.

Post Reply