IQ Distribution

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Werra
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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Werra »

What's the IQ distribution like for Loroi? Is it the same as in humans, or gender reversed?

boldilocks
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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by boldilocks »

If the loroi are an engineered species I'd expect the IQ distribution to be very clustered around the middle of the bell curve, far more so than in humanity, unless their design allowed for mutations. Then again, telepathy might be such a powerful tool to maintain societal control that extreme IQ outliers would be automatically cleaned out of the gene pool regardless of mutations.
Then again, a telepathic society could counteract the human need for stable middle-of-the-road levels of IQ and therefore allow for a wider distribution without it negatively affecting societal health, thus less clustering around the middle.

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IQ Distribution

Post by Arioch »

Werra wrote:What's the IQ distribution like for Loroi? Is it the same as in humans, or gender reversed?
I suspect that the distribution curves might be taller (more individuals near the mean and fewer at the extremes) for Loroi, chiefly because of their eugenics policies.

As for gender distribution, it's difficult to say since the Loroi male and female populations are so drastically different in size and in societal roles; it's hard to predict how these factors might affect IQ distribution, especially since we don't really understand the cause behind the differing IQ distribution curves in humans males and females (the female curve is slightly taller, with a slightly larger percentage near the mean and fewer at either extreme than the males). We might expect that these differences are reversed in the Loroi, since the females engage in high-risk careers somewhat similar to human males; but the Loroi males are not directly analogous to human females, as the population is much smaller as a percentage, are much more closely protected and live much longer (the average age of a Loroi male will be much higher than the average age of a Loroi female).

I doubt that any IQ distribution differences in Loroi males and females would be very noticeable, since they have very different, rigidly defined roles, and don't compete for the same jobs or rewards. I think both the magnitude and the importance of such differences are often exaggerated in humans; it has been suggested that human male dominance in scientific and technological achievement can be explained by the slightly larger percentage of male IQ's at the higher end due to the flatter curve... but for one thing, the numbers don't add up (if excellence in STEM was based solely on IQ, we should expect to see far more female inventors and Nobel prize winning scientists than there are), and for another, I think that the main reason there are so few women at the top of science & engineering professions is because it has been clearly demonstrated that there is much more variability in the distribution of personality traits between the sexes than there is in IQ, and a smaller percentage of women are interested in careers in science & engineering, regardless of IQ. But most Loroi don't even choose their own careers, so any differences in these curves would be masked.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by cacambo43 »

Arioch wrote:
Werra wrote:What's the IQ distribution like for Loroi? Is it the same as in humans, or gender reversed?
I suspect that the distribution curves might be taller (more individuals near the mean and fewer at the extremes) for Loroi, chiefly because of their eugenics policies.

As for gender distribution, it's difficult to say since the Loroi male and female populations are so drastically different in size and in societal roles; it's hard to predict how these factors might affect IQ distribution, especially since we don't really understand the cause behind the differing IQ distribution curves in humans males and females (the female curve is slightly taller, with a slightly larger percentage near the mean and fewer at either extreme than the males). We might expect that these differences are reversed in the Loroi, since the females engage in high-risk careers somewhat similar to human males; but the Loroi males are not directly analogous to human females, as the population is much smaller as a percentage, are much more closely protected and live much longer (the average age of a Loroi male will be much higher than the average age of a Loroi female).

I doubt that any IQ distribution differences in Loroi males and females would be very noticeable, since they have very different, rigidly defined roles, and don't compete for the same jobs or rewards. I think both the magnitude and the importance of such differences are often exaggerated in humans; it has been suggested that human male dominance in scientific and technological achievement can be explained by the slightly larger percentage of male IQ's at the higher end due to the flatter curve... but for one thing, the numbers don't add up (if excellence in STEM was based solely on IQ, we should expect to see far more female inventors and Nobel prize winning scientists than there are), and for another, I think that the main reason there are so few women at the top of science & engineering professions is because it has been clearly demonstrated that there is much more variability in the distribution of personality traits between the sexes than there is in IQ, and a smaller percentage of women are interested in careers in science & engineering, regardless of IQ. But most Loroi don't even choose their own careers, so any differences in these curves would be masked.
You might spend some time talking with women in the STEM fields and realize that last bit is untrue, except in the sense that many women are not "interested" in STEM careers because of systemic and deep rooted gender biases. And those that do "stick with it" are, again, systematically denied the same opportunities for advancement, either from outright intimidation and sexual harassment, or from persistent legacy attitudes among their peers (men, and women). This causes a significant dropping of STEM careers early on by women. If you want, I can point you to relevant and current research in these areas and suggest a number of women to follow to get a sense of how pervasive this problem is.

I believe you are generally correct in terms of IQ distributions, but there is always the specter of uncorrected bias in the testing methodologies and interpretations. But as you say, I don't think there'd be much in the way of detectable difference in the Loroi, any more than there really is (day to day) among humans.

CJSF

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by kiwi »

Yes. Whenever I hear about measured differences between males and females I always worry about experimental design (sample size, selection of participants (a lot of participants are recruited in university campuses, which puts some interesting pressures on age, social background and especially education level) and uncorrected confounding factors) and (except for gross physical attributes) what the impact of social conditioning is.

So I think that in the real world we should try to judge people one by one, rather than making assumptions. For a technical role, I’d much rather hire Grace Hopper than Steve-who-can’t-count-past-10-with-his-shoes-on.

It’s actually great that there are a variety of people in the world, because I love being an engineer and wouldn’t do well being a lawyer or accountant or medical doctor.

On the Loroi front, there might be a lot of tragic cases where the caste system - and expectations thereof - might have people tragically mismatched to their role in life. Eg a Loroi woman who could have made a supreme tactician but was born to a civilian caste and is a mediocre farmer. Or a Loroi man who could have been a visionary logistician but is instead relegated to a back-blocks philosophical retreat because he spends half his days leaking thoughts about how he doesn’t feel like he’s doing anything useful.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by boldilocks »

cacambo43 wrote:You might spend some time talking with women in the STEM fields and realize that last bit is untrue, except in the sense that many women are not "interested" in STEM careers because of systemic and deep rooted gender biases. And those that do "stick with it" are, again, systematically denied the same opportunities for advancement, either from outright intimidation and sexual harassment, or from persistent legacy attitudes among their peers (men, and women). This causes a significant dropping of STEM careers early on by women. If you want, I can point you to relevant and current research in these areas and suggest a number of women to follow to get a sense of how pervasive this problem is.
This is an outright falsehood. Studies on gender bias in hiring find that men do not exhibit gender-bias against hiring or advancing women (being in fact slightly more likely to hire or advance a woman over a man depending on circumstances) while women to a greater degree exhibit gender-bias in hiring or advancing women. (Ie, women discriminate against men when they are in hiring positions but men don't discriminate against women.)
Sources:
Beugnot, J., & Peterlé, E. (2020). Gender bias in job referrals: An experimental test. Journal of Economic Psychology, 102209.
Brown, M., Setren, E., & Topa, G. (2016). Do informal referrals lead to better matches? Evidence from a firm’s employee referral system. Journal of Labor Economics, 34(1), 161–209.
Fernandez, R. M., & Sosa, M. L. (2005). Gendering the job: Networks and recruitment at a call center. American Journal of Sociology, 111(3), 859–904.
Rudman, L. A., & Goodwin, S. A. (2004). Gender differences in automatic in-group bias: Why do women like women more than men like men? Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 87(4), 494–509.
cacambo43 wrote:I believe you are generally correct in terms of IQ distributions, but there is always the specter of uncorrected bias in the testing methodologies and interpretations. But as you say, I don't think there'd be much in the way of detectable difference in the Loroi, any more than there really is (day to day) among humans.
The specter is just that, a specter. A non-existent phantom invoked by those who are unhappy with unequal IQ distributions.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by boldilocks »

kiwi wrote:Yes. Whenever I hear about measured differences between males and females I always worry about experimental design (sample size, selection of participants (a lot of participants are recruited in university campuses, which puts some interesting pressures on age, social background and especially education level) and uncorrected confounding factors) and (except for gross physical attributes) what the impact of social conditioning is.
IQ and General Intelligence are the most well-established and empirically verified factors of measurement in social science. This tactical nihilist skepticism people display when discussing them stem not from any verifiable shortcomings in the research but from those individuals' cognitive dissonance between the empirically verified facts of IQ and GI, and their clinging to the facile ideology of brainpower egalitarianism and tabula rasa.
kiwi wrote:So I think that in the real world we should try to judge people one by one, rather than making assumptions. For a technical role, I’d much rather hire Grace Hopper than Steve-who-can’t-count-past-10-with-his-shoes-on.
This is not a situation that ever arises, though. Steve-who-can't-count will likely self-filter out of the pool far before attempting to be hired for a high-intellect job. What we are asking is why there are so few Grace Hopper's compared to Steve Jobs (or insert male engineer of your choice). IQ and personality distribution have far more explanatory power than a ridiculous misandric conspiracy theory that "men be keeping the womenfolk down", which is not borne out by actual studies on the topic.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Werra »

Arioch wrote:
Werra wrote:What's the IQ distribution like for Loroi? Is it the same as in humans, or gender reversed?
I suspect that the distribution curves might be taller (more individuals near the mean and fewer at the extremes) for Loroi, chiefly because of their eugenics policies.

As for gender distribution, it's difficult to say since the Loroi male and female populations are so drastically different in size and in societal roles; it's hard to predict how these factors might affect IQ distribution, especially since we don't really understand the cause behind the differing IQ distribution curves in humans males and females (the female curve is slightly taller, with a slightly larger percentage near the mean and fewer at either extreme than the males). We might expect that these differences are reversed in the Loroi, since the females engage in high-risk careers somewhat similar to human males; but the Loroi males are not directly analogous to human females, as the population is much smaller as a percentage, are much more closely protected and live much longer (the average age of a Loroi male will be much higher than the average age of a Loroi female).

I doubt that any IQ distribution differences in Loroi males and females would be very noticeable, since they have very different, rigidly defined roles, and don't compete for the same jobs or rewards. I think both the magnitude and the importance of such differences are often exaggerated in humans; it has been suggested that human male dominance in scientific and technological achievement can be explained by the slightly larger percentage of male IQ's at the higher end due to the flatter curve... but for one thing, the numbers don't add up (if excellence in STEM was based solely on IQ, we should expect to see far more female inventors and Nobel prize winning scientists than there are), and for another, I think that the main reason there are so few women at the top of science & engineering professions is because it has been clearly demonstrated that there is much more variability in the distribution of personality traits between the sexes than there is in IQ, and a smaller percentage of women are interested in careers in science & engineering, regardless of IQ. But most Loroi don't even choose their own careers, so any differences in these curves would be masked.
The way Loroi society is set up could easily produce fierce competition between the females of the species for Torrai caste membership and other high ranks that allow to frequently breed.
Since intelligence is immensely important in attaining such positions (hopefully), there could be a strong selective pressure for intelligent women.

How does Loroi society decide which males are top quality? Do they value academic achievements as high as (directly) inborn qualities such as telekinetics?

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Arioch »

Werra wrote:The way Loroi society is set up could easily produce fierce competition between the females of the species for Torrai caste membership and other high ranks that allow to frequently breed.
Since intelligence is immensely important in attaining such positions (hopefully), there could be a strong selective pressure for intelligent women.
Naturally there is positive selection pressure for traits like intelligence, but there is nothing about such selection that is gender exclusive; a smarter female's offspring have the same chance to also be smarter whether they are male or female.
Werra wrote:How does Loroi society decide which males are top quality? Do they value academic achievements as high as (directly) inborn qualities such as telekinetics?
In terms of desirability as a mate, up to a certain point, a male's expertise and accomplishments enhance his status, especially if he is employed in fields that are in some way associated with the mating encounters themselves; for example, a top telepathic therapist or a particularly famous scholar might be especially desired as a mating partner. But above a certain level of status, a male's social status has a lot to do with who his relatives are. I think the most valuable thing a male can offer the ultra-high-status female is a point of social contact with his even-higher-status female relatives and the prestige that goes with it. And, I suppose, as breeding stock, the relatives of highly successful females will be assumed to carry some of the same positive traits that made their relatives successful.

However, higher male status does not equate to more offspring. Indeed, it might be the reverse case: higher-status males tend to be mated to older females, who are progressively less fertile as they age.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by SaintofM »

Arioch wrote:
Werra wrote:The way Loroi society is set up could easily produce fierce competition between the females of the species for Torrai caste membership and other high ranks that allow to frequently breed.
Since intelligence is immensely important in attaining such positions (hopefully), there could be a strong selective pressure for intelligent women.
Naturally there is positive selection pressure for traits like intelligence, but there is nothing about such selection that is gender exclusive; a smarter female's offspring have the same chance to also be smarter whether they are male or female.
Werra wrote:How does Loroi society decide which males are top quality? Do they value academic achievements as high as (directly) inborn qualities such as telekinetics?
In terms of desirability as a mate, up to a certain point, a male's expertise and accomplishments enhance his status, especially if he is employed in fields that are in some way associated with the mating encounters themselves; for example, a top telepathic therapist or a particularly famous scholar might be especially desired as a mating partner. But above a certain level of status, a male's social status has a lot to do with who his relatives are. I think the most valuable thing a male can offer the ultra-high-status female is a point of social contact with his even-higher-status female relatives and the prestige that goes with it. And, I suppose, as breeding stock, the relatives of highly successful females will be assumed to carry some of the same positive traits that made their relatives successful.

However, higher male status does not equate to more offspring. Indeed, it might be the reverse case: higher-status males tend to be mated to older females, who are progressively less fertile as they age.

So, Nepotism.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by cacambo43 »

:D :D :D :D :D
boldilocks wrote:
cacambo43 wrote:You might spend some time talking with women in the STEM fields and realize that last bit is untrue, except in the sense that many women are not "interested" in STEM careers because of systemic and deep rooted gender biases. And those that do "stick with it" are, again, systematically denied the same opportunities for advancement, either from outright intimidation and sexual harassment, or from persistent legacy attitudes among their peers (men, and women). This causes a significant dropping of STEM careers early on by women. If you want, I can point you to relevant and current research in these areas and suggest a number of women to follow to get a sense of how pervasive this problem is.
This is an outright falsehood. Studies on gender bias in hiring find that men do not exhibit gender-bias against hiring or advancing women (being in fact slightly more likely to hire or advance a woman over a man depending on circumstances) while women to a greater degree exhibit gender-bias in hiring or advancing women. (Ie, women discriminate against men when they are in hiring positions but men don't discriminate against women.)
Sources:
Beugnot, J., & Peterlé, E. (2020). Gender bias in job referrals: An experimental test. Journal of Economic Psychology, 102209.
Brown, M., Setren, E., & Topa, G. (2016). Do informal referrals lead to better matches? Evidence from a firm’s employee referral system. Journal of Labor Economics, 34(1), 161–209.
Fernandez, R. M., & Sosa, M. L. (2005). Gendering the job: Networks and recruitment at a call center. American Journal of Sociology, 111(3), 859–904.
Rudman, L. A., & Goodwin, S. A. (2004). Gender differences in automatic in-group bias: Why do women like women more than men like men? Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 87(4), 494–509.
cacambo43 wrote:I believe you are generally correct in terms of IQ distributions, but there is always the specter of uncorrected bias in the testing methodologies and interpretations. But as you say, I don't think there'd be much in the way of detectable difference in the Loroi, any more than there really is (day to day) among humans.
The specter is just that, a specter. A non-existent phantom invoked by those who are unhappy with unequal IQ distributions.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by boldilocks »

SaintofM wrote:So, Nepotism.
Nepotism makes a lot of sense in a society whose eugenics program aims at building a genetically healthy and improved populace. It's nepotism in the same way that selective breeding of horses is nepotism.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Werra »

Arioch wrote: Naturally there is positive selection pressure for traits like intelligence, but there is nothing about such selection that is gender exclusive; a smarter female's offspring have the same chance to also be smarter whether they are male or female.
If you proclaim ex cathedra that this is the case for Loroi, then it's gospel. But there is nothing in nature that says IQ has to work this way. Genes for high IQ could be on the sex exclusive Chromosomes. Or simple sexual dimorphism could affect intelligence.
Arioch wrote: However, higher male status does not equate to more offspring. Indeed, it might be the reverse case: higher-status males tend to be mated to older females, who are progressively less fertile as they age.
Interesting thought: Loroi females are both the sex that gets selected and does the selecting. To breed, a Loroi has to appeal to her female peers primarily and only then to a male. Or is a females encounter lost if the male declines to consumate it?

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by entity2636 »

kiwi wrote:On the Loroi front, there might be a lot of tragic cases where the caste system - and expectations thereof - might have people tragically mismatched to their role in life. Eg a Loroi woman who could have made a supreme tactician but was born to a civilian caste and is a mediocre farmer. Or a Loroi man who could have been a visionary logistician but is instead relegated to a back-blocks philosophical retreat because he spends half his days leaking thoughts about how he doesn’t feel like he’s doing anything useful.
Maybe I'm missing something or misinterpreting how Loroi are filtered into their respective castes and how said castes work (loroi castes should be seen as different service branches of the military and not like the castes we have/had back on Earth), but I think this situation is near impossible.

A loroi isn't born into a caste, rather, during their early childhood they are evaluated telepathically by their caretakers and teachers and sorted into the caste that best fits the child's abilities. Diral bands are them formed out of children from the same "caste". Civilian loroi reproduce rarely if at all.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by SVlad »

boldilocks wrote: This is an outright falsehood. Studies on gender bias in hiring find that men do not exhibit gender-bias against hiring or advancing women (being in fact slightly more likely to hire or advance a woman over a man depending on circumstances) while women to a greater degree exhibit gender-bias in hiring or advancing women. (Ie, women discriminate against men when they are in hiring positions but men don't discriminate against women.)
In which country were these studies conducted? Because here in Russia men mostly hire men and women - women because of strong gender bias.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by boldilocks »

SVlad wrote:In which country were these studies conducted? Because here in Russia men mostly hire men and women - women because of strong gender bias.
Mainly in the US and western europe.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by orion1836 »

For what it's worth, I don't think you can draw any cultural equivalencies in that lane between Russia and the West.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by SVlad »

As far as we here speaking about humanity IQ and gender biases in general, such studies would also be unrelevant, because they reflect only one culture biases. The one of many.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by orion1836 »

SVlad wrote:As far as we here speaking about humanity IQ and gender biases in general, such studies would also be unrelevant, because they reflect only one culture biases. The one of many.
To an extent. From what I've read, IQ tests are not biased (as uncomfortable as the results may be when applied to demographics). For one example, pattern matching is pattern matching, no matter your nationality, race, age, etc.

Worthwhile read on the subject.

Given what we know of the Loroi as an engineered race, it would make sense that as a whole, they would skew towards the middle but otherwise follow a normal (if more peaked) bell curve.

It's been a long time since I took statistics. Does anyone here work stats as part of their job or have you recently taken a course in it? Regarding Loroi men, can any meaningful comparisons be made between two populations where one is 1/8th the size of the other?

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by boldilocks »

orion1836 wrote:
SVlad wrote:As far as we here speaking about humanity IQ and gender biases in general, such studies would also be unrelevant, because they reflect only one culture biases. The one of many.
To an extent. From what I've read, IQ tests are not biased (as uncomfortable as the results may be when applied to demographics). For one example, pattern matching is pattern matching, no matter your nationality, race, age, etc.
It's actually worse than that.
Studies on cultural bias in IQ tests found that IQ tests designed to remove cultural bias (for example, no english language knowledge necessary to do the test) widened the demographic scoring gaps that the postulation of cultural bias sought to explain.

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