How to Make Mecha Work in a realish setting

[CrimsonFALKE]

First a battlemech in battletech even at 50tons has more firepower than a platoon of mbts and cover more ground that if they have jumpjets can land inside the line of enemy vehicles.

But there's no logical reason why this would be the case... there's no reason that a tracked vehicle (or whatever) of the same weight shouldn't be able to mount the same weapons and equipment as a humanoid mech.

Incorrect at least in battletech only battlemechs have the ability to use myomer strands. Mechs carry more fire power and armor per ton of myomer. Case in point the Demolisher II MBT weighs 100 tons has the same fire power and protection as 75 ton Warhammer assault mech. the down side is you need fusion power plants

[Arioch]

Incorrect at least in battletech only battlemechs have the ability to use myomer strands.

This thread is about the problem of how to make mechs work in a realistic setting. Saying "Because only mechs can use handwavium!" doesn't seem like a very compelling solution.

In fiction, if you don't have an explanation for something, I think it's better to simply not try to explain it, rather than shout "Midichlorians!"

[GeoModder]

Incorrect at least in battletech only battlemechs have the ability to use myomer strands.

"Midichlorians!"

"Taimat!"

[Turrosh Mak]

Incorrect at least in battletech only battlemechs have the ability to use myomer strands.

"Midichlorians!"

"Taimat!"

Oof! Direct hit, Captain

[Arioch]

Incorrect at least in battletech only battlemechs have the ability to use myomer strands.

"Midichlorians!"

"Taimat!"

I expect you're joking, but I'm going to explain the difference anyway, and I'll be sure to do so in the most patronizing tone I can muster.

There's nothing inherently wrong with "handwavium"; there's plenty of good science fiction that wouldn't work without it. So if your story needs scrith or philotes or whatever, go for it. However, to feel like science rather than magic, your handwavium should obey logical rules that are self-consistent. The problem with "myomer" is not that it's some futuristic super-strong whatever; the problem is that it can, apparently, magically only be used by humanoid mechs. That doesn't make sense, and making sense is the whole point of handwavium. Otherwise it's just pointless technobabble.

The problem with midichlorians is not that they're fanciful or silly (certainly no more than "The Force" itself); it's rather that they don't actually explain anything about how the Force works... they're just an unnecessary intermediary. (And it doesn't help that they were never mentioned before during the course of Luke's Jedi training... so in addition to being completely unnecessary, it feels like a random idea pulled out of Lucas' arse just because he wanted some way to measure The Chosen One's staggering Force potential.)

And let's remind ourselves what the original question was: how to believably depict mechs in a realistic setting. If someone asked me how to believably depict starships in a realistic setting, they would look very little like those in Outsider.

[boldilocks]

The description of midichlorians in relation to the whylls and Lucas' planned final trilogy is actually pretty interesting, but it does open up a question:
1. The midichlorians are sentient and communicate the will of the force to those who can wield it
2. The midichlorians, according to prophecy, actually conceived anakin in order to defeat the sith and bring the force into balance.
3. But, by the nature of how the force works according to this conception, the midichlorians also exist in sith and are allowing the sith to wield the force.

Based on that it would seem like the sith are wielding the force against the will of the midichlorians inside them or the midichlorians inside them are somehow corrupted (according to lucas the force is in balance when it is in the light side) or lucas didn't think this through. Or maybe he did. It would have been nice to have a trilogy exploring it, nonetheless, if he was going to de-mystify the force anyway.

Edit: personally I prefer the force as it is described in the first trilogy. Mystical and non-material.

[Ithekro]

The old EU has some sort of Imperial Force Aura scanner to check for Force Sensitives and if they were more Light or Dark Side auras. The New Republic found one some time after Endor and Luke started using it to find people suitable for his new Jedi Academy.
Midichlorian allow for a similar, though biological in nature, test to find Force users. They did sort of follow through on the idea of the Midichlorians and the Whylis near the end of the Clone Wars series, with Yoda finding a source of the Force while hunting for clues about Darth Sidious and Yoda's visions about what was about to happen (Order 66 and the potential New Hope).

[CrimsonFALKE]

Incorrect at least in battletech only battlemechs have the ability to use myomer strands.

This thread is about the problem of how to make mechs work in a realistic setting. Saying "Because only mechs can use handwavium!" doesn't seem like a very compelling solution.

In fiction, if you don't have an explanation for something, I think it's better to simply not try to explain it, rather than shout "Midichlorians!"

Okay first myomers are synthetic muscle which as the universe explains in great detail permits mechs to function. The setting is one of the most hard scifi settings around there is no artificial gravity in the year 3100 also there are essay length explanations on the workings of a battlemech. Myomers being able to lift more than they weigh, and I explained that you can save at least a quarter of the weight of a tank with a mech; eg the WHR-6R being 75 tons vs a tank with the same load out being 100 tons while lacking the same protection. But by all means you can just Midichlorians hand wave away the scientific explanation made in universe. Currently we lack fusion engines, and myomers the two things that make mechs work. Myomers are able to come in almost any size and can be used to replace lost limbs or even be used in construction systems as they are more efficient than bulky hydraulics. Again we do not have half this stuff but Fusion engines and synthetic muscle prosthetics are in the works.

Myomer is composed of microscopic poly-acetylene tubes filled with an acti-strandular fiber. These fibers are created by mixing biologically engineered bacteria with specific polymers within the tubes. An electric current is sent through these tube, causing the fibers to arrange themselves into a complex nano-structure similar to the proteins myosin and actin that allow biological muscles their movement

http://www.technovelgy.com/ct/Science-F ... wsNum=2885
http://romano.physics.wisc.edu/winokur/ ... node5.html
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/04/1 ... mars_trip/

Not very handwavium but that's neither here nor there. What is important is we are looking into making this stuff now. If you would want an argument against battlemechs I'd say the size of target is the issue as all combat vehicles get a low profile look first shoot first bonus roll and insanely cheap to make given they can run on ICE power plants. If any of you want to talk hard science go to Sarna.net they bend over backwards to keep things grounded. If you want mechs realistically I guess pour money into the research links mentioned above. Seriously how hard is it that synthetic muscles could open up new avenues of weaponry?

[GeoModder]

"Midichlorians!"

"Taimat!"

I expect you're joking, but I'm going to explain the difference anyway, and I'll be sure to do so in the most patronizing tone I can muster.

Of course I was.
Not that I understand why you felt the need for a 'cheaper' annihilation reaction in Outsider then antimatter, with a similar energy output.

[Arioch]

Myomers being able to lift more than they weigh, and I explained that you can save at least a quarter of the weight of a tank with a mech; eg the WHR-6R being 75 tons vs a tank with the same load out being 100 tons while lacking the same protection.

Superstrong synthetic muscle fibers may explain how a mech can be strong enough to stand up, but it doesn't explain why a mech can carry more than a tank of the same weight, since a tank doesn't need to stand up, nor does it need to "lift" anything. The weight of a tank is mostly in its armor, engines, and weapons; very little of it is in structure. Even if it has superstrong, superlight synthetic fibers to help hold it up, a standing mech with the same armor, weapons and engines as a tank will have to weigh more, because tanks don't require this additional structure.

This is to say nothing of the additional expense and maintenance issues of this fiber and all the additional moving parts required in a humanoid mech, or how a 75 ton mech is able to avoid sinking into the ground without feet like giant showshoes.

Not that I understand why you felt the need for a 'cheaper' annihilation reaction in Outsider then antimatter, with a similar energy output.

The problem with antimatter is that it's not an energy "source"; there isn't a ready-made supply of antimatter that you can harvest or mine, so you have to synthesize it... which is incredibly expensive. The amount of energy needed is massive... a single starship outputs more energy than an entire planet produces. So if I say I'm using antimatter, I also need to explain where all this energy needed to create the antimatter is coming from. One could propose a fictional way to create antimatter cheaply, but I figured it was less of a stretch to propose a cheap way of making ordinary matter unstable.

[CrimsonFALKE]

Myomers being able to lift more than they weigh, and I explained that you can save at least a quarter of the weight of a tank with a mech; eg the WHR-6R being 75 tons vs a tank with the same load out being 100 tons while lacking the same protection.

Superstrong synthetic muscle fibers may explain how a mech can be strong enough to stand up, but it doesn't explain why a mech can carry more than a tank of the same weight, since a tank doesn't need to stand up, nor does it need to "lift" anything. The weight of a tank is mostly in its armor, engines, and weapons; very little of it is in structure. Even if it has superstrong, superlight synthetic fibers to help hold it up, a standing mech with the same armor, weapons and engines as a tank will have to weigh more, because tanks don't require this additional structure.

This is to say nothing of the additional expense and maintenance issues of this fiber and all the additional moving parts required in a humanoid mech, or how a 75 ton mech is able to avoid sinking into the ground without feet like giant showshoes.

Actually it just did say that the tank can't use myomer and the tonages difference means easier transport. Of course the most realistic thing we would use is a protomech or powered armor where one person can transport enough weapons to be a nightmare to forces without that tech

[Arioch]

Actually it just did say that the tank can't use myomer which you ignored. And the tonages difference means easier transport. The clans tried it but found conventional means easier to use on smaller vehicles. Mech construction begin in a golden age and was thought that Mecha being so hard to make open war unpopular it didn't as every faction hates the rest so much any edge at any price is acceptable. Of course the most realistic thing we would use is a protomech or powered armor

The tank doesn't need to use myomer... but if it did, I don't see why it couldn't. What's magical about a mech that makes it able to use myomer while a tank can't?

And citing fictional statistics and events as if they were real doesn't do anything to demonstrate a point.

[CrimsonFALKE]

Actually it just did say that the tank can't use myomer which you ignored. And the tonages difference means easier transport. The clans tried it but found conventional means easier to use on smaller vehicles. Mech construction begin in a golden age and was thought that Mecha being so hard to make open war unpopular it didn't as every faction hates the rest so much any edge at any price is acceptable. Of course the most realistic thing we would use is a protomech or powered armor

The tank doesn't need to use myomer... but if it did, I don't see why it couldn't. What's magical about a mech that makes it able to use myomer while a tank can't?

And citing fictional statistics and events as if they were real doesn't do anything to demonstrate a point.

Those were real world experiments I linked

[SaintofM]

What about repairs?

How much more difficult would an exoskeleton or larger mecha be compared to a military vehicle a tank or an attack helicopter or even an transport shuttle?

[CrimsonFALKE]

What about repairs?

How much more difficult would an exoskeleton or larger mecha be compared to a military vehicle a tank or an attack helicopter or even an transport shuttle?

An urban mech is only 5million USD a Firefly is about the same or do you mean something else?

[SVlad]

Myomers being able to lift more than they weigh, and I explained that you can save at least a quarter of the weight of a tank with a mech; eg the WHR-6R being 75 tons vs a tank with the same load out being 100 tons while lacking the same protection.

I didn't get it.
We have 75 t mech with all weapons and armor. This mech chassis weight aproximatly 10 t. Remove legs and mount torso on a heavy tank chassis, wich weights approximately the same 5 t as removed legs. And you basically just made a 75 t tank with same armor and weapons and energy source, as mech, but with lower profile.

[SaintofM]

What about repairs?

How much more difficult would an exoskeleton or larger mecha be compared to a military vehicle a tank or an attack helicopter or even an transport shuttle?

An urban mech is only 5million USD a Firefly is about the same or do you mean something else?

I was just thinking of something comparable in function. Would it be harder, on par with, or easier to repair than say a more standard piece of war machinery.

[Overkill Engine]

What about repairs?

How much more difficult would an exoskeleton or larger mecha be compared to a military vehicle a tank or an attack helicopter or even an transport shuttle?

An urban mech is only 5million USD a Firefly is about the same or do you mean something else?

I was just thinking of something comparable in function. Would it be harder, on par with, or easier to repair than say a more standard piece of war machinery.

A flat tire can be potentially replaced in the field. A broken actuator, or limb joint mechanism, probably not so much. That's the drawback of the increased mechanical complexity of limbs even when compared to modern wheeled suspension systems.

[Werra]

https://youtu.be/byzQQNTY720?t=630

SpoilerShow

Don't laugh. This is how the Loroi will feel when they meet us.

[GeoModder]

Not that I understand why you felt the need for a 'cheaper' annihilation reaction in Outsider then antimatter, with a similar energy output.

The problem with antimatter is that it's not an energy "source"; there isn't a ready-made supply of antimatter that you can harvest or mine, so you have to synthesize it... which is incredibly expensive. The amount of energy needed is massive... a single starship outputs more energy than an entire planet produces. So if I say I'm using antimatter, I also need to explain where all this energy needed to create the antimatter is coming from. One could propose a fictional way to create antimatter cheaply, but I figured it was less of a stretch to propose a cheap way of making ordinary matter unstable.

I see. Thanks for the explanation.