What is better not offer to Loroi

[dragoongfa]

Care to try Star Wars vs Star Trek next?

Hmm...

Nope, I need my Sanity and I only jerkpost for W40K

[Cy83r]

I'll take it.

Star Wars: WMD-class Turbolasers; galactic hyperdrive; robots do everything important while politicians faf about
Star Trek: scanners and replicators with raw materials and energy-on-hand as the only limitation; warp-speed combat maneuvers

Star Trek wins after a few months analysing the scans they took on an alcubierre drive-by of the local Imperial fleet and building/replicating a replicator/reactor complex large enough to prefabricate sections of one of any of the super star destroyers- y'know, after they retrofit their warp drive to make hyperspace jumps by ejecting one of several disposable warp cores installed just to power each jump- robots are granted federation citizenship so long as they limit themselves to human-sized chassis and intellects- everyone learns a valuable lesson about peace, acceptance, and how nobody likes Wesley Crusher.

[bunnyboy]

This is the the only and true history between Star Wars and Star Trek: http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Fan ... index.html

[icekatze]

hi hi

The nice thing about science is that it represents a common ground that anything can be compared against. Trying to compare magic on the other hand, leaves you with no real common ground. As much as I enjoyed that game of Rogue Trader I was in, the Warhammer 40k universe is incredibly silly. As far as I can tell, it is supposed to be silly, as it is satirizing the Margret Thatcher era conservatism.

[RedDwarfIV]

I'll take it.

Star Wars: WMD-class Turbolasers

And yet, all those things do when they actually hit a spacecraft is make a single room blow up.

Given how people use the fact that one blew up an asteroid as proof that turbolasers are so incredibly powerful, I'm rather inclined to say "well it must have been a damned small asteroid, cause turbolasers are piss-poor at doing damage to anything else."

Photon torpedoes, meanwhile, consistently destroy spacecraft of a similar or slightly larger size than Enterprise if they can hit. The Borg cube was just extremely big, and I'm pretty sure a Star Destroyer doesn't have the same self-repair capability and they definitely aren't decentralised.

[Cy83r]

Nah, I was actually going by some numbers that weren't math-checked. The average SDD turbolaser, just one out of a turreted battery of six or eight, holds something like twelve hiroshimas of energy in each discharge.

Star wars society is ridiculously advanced, all labor in even the barely civilised sectors of space are done by droids, the lowest rungs of free biological society are shop owners, soldiers, and technicians- slave dancers being the lascivious exception because biology and sex go so well in hand with corruption and abuse. The manufacturers are droids, the waitstaff are droids, the maids are droids, the secretaries are droids, many doctors and engineers are even populated by droidkind; especially well-built and skilled droids even make it into politics and war with fearsome records of competence in their wake as long as they weren't part of the Trade Federation models put up against jedi or starred as the moustache-twirling villains in saturday-morning cartoons. Their materials science has probably scaled with the weapons seeing as some middle-east analogues managed to develop a superweapon that uses a gravitational lens in the doomsday weapon's primary focus.

Star Trek society still had biological miners before mobile holograms became a thing, they rely on waste energy to power replicator manufacturing and struggle to break out of their local quadrant after several months where SW drives break spacetime transit issues into fantastic pieces.

Both societies throw around ridiculous amounts of energy, but the Warsverse throws around several magnitudes more on a daily basis without even thinking about it very hard, they're just very inefficient about throwing that energy around. Trekverse technologies are power-hungry, but their society is surprisingly proactive about being efficient with that power, there's not much to their manufacturing logistics, but there's still a massive effort to sustain economy. Where warsverse corporations will dedicate planets to hand-over-hand fabrication techniques in massive numbers, trekverse manufacturers use only a few stations and probably a lot of on-site replicator assistance.

The only serious military border I've seen in Star Trek after the cowboy heyday of Archer and Kirk is the blockade of the dominion wormhole and responses to borg incursions which can just drop into known space wherever they damn well please. Frankly I don't know how something like the Borg haven't just beat the Federation and its alien counterparts through sheer attrition except that their assimilation seems to be egalitarian and humanitarian in the rough nature of its application- they're at least willing to take more time if it means fewer losses.


On the issue of torpedoes, shielding seems to work differently in each verse: Wars has hard barriers that blow out the generator when they fail; Trek has several layers between combat shields and navigational deflectors that seem to absorb energy into the ship's power grid like an inverted heat sink or something- by the time trek shields fail there's already been a substantial amount of damage dealt through systems overloads. And I've noticed the killing power of a single torpedo is also as highly cinematic as the shields in Trek; while, yes, Wars does take cinematic liberties, the destructive capacity of the weapons and how each ship stands up to damage is based on real references to the World War period naval engagements, often going shot-for-shot with previous combat and a movie footage covering the era, so it tends to be much more consistent in application than Trek's narrativist style of depiction.

[RedDwarfIV]

Well there's the problem. If turbolasers were as powerful as twelve Hiroshima bombs, they would not do the same damage as a 12 inch cannon. They would destroy the target spacecraft completely in one hit.

But they don't.


Wheras, against a spacecraft of similar size of the Enterprise, one photon torpedo will do the job. So basically, the Starfleet ships need only take down the Star Wars ships' shields and they'll have beaten them. The Star Wars ships will be sitting around trying to hit the Star Trek ships with pea-shooters even when the Federation's vessels have no shields left. And they'd have trouble hitting them, because they move like frigging jet fighters at speeds up to a quarter of C, and Star Wars targeting computers are cross-eyed.

[Cy83r]

http://www.stardestroyer.net/tlc/Power/

Sorry, the lighter belly cannons have anywhere from 1/2 a hiroshima of energy up to 8 hiroshimas, the evidence is strong for 8 hiroshimas; the dorsal batteriees have much more powerful projectors- 12Hs for each heavy turbolaser on a SDDs primary batteries is an extremely conservative estimate, it's likely to sit closer to something like 18Hs.

Keep in mind, lighter craft ussually can't sustain more than a few hits, at most, from turbolasers before explosively disintegrating even with shielding. There's strong argumentation for materials science in the warsverse being extremely advanced even after accounting for the defense provided by energy shields.

Single SDD 'super-capital' planetary bombardments will level built up habitations scary-fast even back into the old republic eras you can see small numbers of supercapital ships absolutely leveling unprotected targets with very little effort outside of taking the time to cover the full beaten zone desired.

Further estimates put the main blaster of the X-wing at 15GJ each, or 1/62Hs.

Taken from further SDN articles

The energy absorption capability of Federation shields is roughly 1500 TJ

Assuming that is correct, a single blast from line-of-battle turbolasers, not even the heavy versions on SDDs, will blow through the average federation ship; these are cannons that run in cycles of several seconds. Phasers by behavioral comparison alone against Trekverse shields are woefully underpowered. However, it should be noted that phasers, some sort of exotic particle-based disintegrator in the behavioral class of black holes, are not the same class of weapon as turbolasers, comparatively simple, if ridiculously overpowered, plasma bolt launchers with multiple gigaton recoils.

Warsverse ray-shielding may not actually work against phasers and particle-based shields are comparatively rare to the point that getting your hands on a slugthrower of any caliber can be a wonderful backup plan. So, in conclusion, it looks like both sides are defenseless against each other and Trek ships are as nimble as the average corvette, meaning those medium and heavy turbolasers which don't care about feddie shield ratings aren't going to be landing many hits while phasers are virtually hitscan weapons at common engagement ranges. Even worse, photon torpedoes (and proton torpedoes) are wrapped in a shield to prevent the warhead from being blocked by trekverse shielding, warsverse ray shields are easily bypassed by turning off the shields on trek torpedoes, not having to worry about being shot down like the proton equivalents since they are propelled by a miniature warp drive.

Trek: ships are hilariously nimble and can fight from warp speed; weapons are underpowered and phasers are inefficient against transuranic elements in heavy armors, but probably ignore ray shields, torpedoes will ignore ray shields if their own shielding is turned off, phasers are hit-scan; shields aren't strong enough to resist capital weapons

Wars: has more energy in a starfighter than the feddies can shake a stick at; particle-shields are rare and underutilized on common designs; all fights are at stabbing-range and still rely on weight of fire to carry the day; hyperdrive outstrips the federation's warp capabilities, but sublight lags far behind feddie maneuverability; armor is comparatively thin at 75cm on even a Star Destroyer; critical systems like bridges and shields are very exposed without shields

Trek actually might win more fights on superior performance and exotic weapons despite being outmatched on the power scale.

[Siber]

My god. Neither the VFX nor the tech fluff hold up to inspection in either franchise if you consider more than a few handpicked examples.

[Cy83r]

It's all technobabble and personal preference in the end, I just have fun analysing other people's data and observations.

[sunphoenix]

The new product was an unimaginable success, billions of Soia men had preordered dozens of the (Large Onaholian Remotely Operated Intelligences - L.O.R.O.I.)

Bwahahahaha! Dude.. you are NOT Right!

[JQBogus]

Elan from OotS would jump right to the real answer: The Good Guy Federation will always beat the Bad Guy Empire in the end. It may take until the end of Act III, but it will happen. The Story requires it!

[elorran]

Perhaps it would be wise to keep L'Oréal products away from the loroi. Don't want any soylent green misunderstandings happening.

[TrashMan]

...

You're aware, I hope, that Loroi spacecraft are propelled by an analogue of antimatter. Terran Imperium spacecraft are propelled by hydrogen peroxide. They use chemical propulsion. That means good acceleration, but pathetic endurance.

WH40K FTL technology relies on either warpspace (liberate tutemet ex inferis) and a portal network that is not available to everyone. The Loroi use a form of trans-stellar jump drive which, so long as you have decent survey maps, is safe and reliable.

Loroi spacecraft use turrets. Terran Imperium warships use fixed broadsides.

The Loroi have active research and development. The Terran Imperium most certainly does not.

Imperial tech is sturdy as f***. Taking a beating and still working.
Imperial vessels have a whole array of different weapons - from fixed lances to various cannons and turrets. To quote:

Weapons batteries usually are the primary armament for most Imperial warships. Since each battery consists of numerous ranks of individual weapons, whole sections of the starship's hull can be covered by gun ports, launcher systems, turrets and weapon housings. The weapons employed vary immensely: Plasma Projectors, close-range Missile Launchers, Laser Cannons, Rail Guns, Fusion Beamers and Graviton Pulsars have all been found on Imperial warships. These batteries fire in coordinated salvoes, to increase the chances to hit and the amount of damage done to a target.



Lastly, Imperial vessels - cruiser and battleships - are in the 5+km length range.
And have multi-layered void shields that can easily tank continent-leveling levels of firewpoer

A single Emperor Battleship could wreck an entire Loroi battlefleet

[icekatze]

hi hi

Anyone can throw random numbers of power levels and things around when they're talking about soft science fiction. Oftentimes it is a result of the writers not knowing anything about science, than a result of deliberate application of science. Usually, they pick a random number that sounds sufficiently big, and drop it in so that the audience thinks it is sufficiently big. (Yet they usually have no idea of how big space actually is.)

"One point twenty one Gigawatts. Whoa! That must be a lot."

The fluff contained in Warhammer 40k is notoriously inconsistent and self-contradictory, and as far as I can tell, it is supposed to be. What better way to simulate the loss of science and reason in a dark age by having lots of self-contradictory statements in your own literature? Honestly, I would be rather surprised if that wasn't a conscious decision on the part of Games Workshop.

(Back when I was in a Rogue Trader game, the Game Master repeatedly had to stop himself, and use the disclaimer, "Sorry guys, but that's what the book says." Whenever the space, or navigating our ship through space, was concerned. We all had a good laugh about the "Missing Gas Giant," in the published scenario. Also, manually loading all those weapons, hah! That's why a single round of space combat is 30 minutes game time.)

Star Trek at least made some efforts at hard science fiction, at least back at the beginning. But that's not to say that it is inherently better because of that. The writers certainly didn't stick with that notion, and the people doing visual effects definitely don't have realism in mind. So even when the actors say, "It's three hundred thousand kilometers away," they cut to an exterior shot and the two things are right next to each other.

(And the Millennium Falcon eats countless turbolaser hits, but they're worried about running into an asteroid that is only moving maybe a hundred miles an hour.)

[Arioch]

Warhammer 40,000 is barely science fiction at all. It's Warhammer Fantasy with guns and spaceships.

[dragoongfa]

Warhammer 40,000 is barely science fiction at all. It's Warhammer Fantasy with guns and spaceships.

90% of science fiction is barely that if you think about it, not saying that you are wrong mind you, in the grand scheme of things the majority of writers have simply changed magic and the supernatural with technobabble and psychic powers, all of this without thinking about a plausible and properly explained approach to the setting. My approach to this is simple: If for any reason the setting has a plot critical element explained with 'jazz hands' then the story loses my interest. This doesn't include 'toying with things that people don't understand', that usually ends up in a moment of awesome.

On my personal preferences I consider the Lost Fleet, The Forever War, Dune and Starship Troopers as sci-fi stories that really deserve the name.

Also HERESY BLAM thanks Commissar

[Arioch]

90% of science fiction is barely that if you think about it, not saying that you are wrong mind you, in the grand scheme of things the majority of writers have simply changed magic and the supernatural with technobabble and psychic powers, all of this without thinking about a plausible and properly explained approach to the setting.

Agreed, and I enjoy "science fantasy" as much as anyone. I'm just saying that 40K and Star Wars are odd settings to choose to argue about the realism of the systems, since there's very little about either one that's even remotely realistic.

[TrashMan]

hi hi

Anyone can throw random numbers of power levels and things around when they're talking about soft science fiction. Oftentimes it is a result of the writers not knowing anything about science, than a result of deliberate application of science. Usually, they pick a random number that sounds sufficiently big, and drop it in so that the audience thinks it is sufficiently big. (Yet they usually have no idea of how big space actually is.)

"One point twenty one Gigawatts. Whoa! That must be a lot."

The fluff contained in Warhammer 40k is notoriously inconsistent and self-contradictory, and as far as I can tell, it is supposed to be. What better way to simulate the loss of science and reason in a dark age by having lots of self-contradictory statements in your own literature? Honestly, I would be rather surprised if that wasn't a conscious decision on the part of Games Workshop.

Star Trek at least made some efforts at hard science fiction, at least back at the beginning. But that's not to say that it is inherently better because of that. The writers certainly didn't stick with that notion, and the people doing visual effects definitely don't have realism in mind. So even when the actors say, "It's three hundred thousand kilometers away," they cut to an exterior shot and the two things are right next to each other.

(And the Millennium Falcon eats countless turbolaser hits, but they're worried about running into an asteroid that is only moving maybe a hundred miles an hour.)

I can agree with you that writers often have a poor grasp of science (they don't really need to have it, tough a sense of SCALE would be nice) or don't pay attention and contradict themselves often.
I honestly put little faith in derived/calculated numbers (they are crap in 99% of cases anyway) and "official" descrptions (since they often don't match what you are seeing at all).

40K has been consistent in a few things tough - void shields are nigh impregnible and warship do carry absurd amounts of firepower.

[junk]

If one were going to design a race of ground troops, they might look something like... the Barsam. But ground troops are not the only kind of warrior. And in this milieu, they are actually the least important kind of warrior. Wars are won in space, not on the ground; yes, you need troops to hold the dirt, but after the space battle is over, eventual victory on the ground is fait accompli.

Unless you have FTL communication or great faith in your AI, as well as impeccable self-repairing systems, drone starships are not a good option; you need someone to man them.

I'll be honest I'd have significantly more faith in a well designed AI system compared to a biological sentience which has needs and wants which will strongly inhibit it.

But yeah to be honest loroi always on telepathy is a huge liability in terms of space warfare. If the enemy finds a way to even just detect loroi mind broadcast, they can fairly simply pinpoint the location of Loroi colonies, battlegroups, refuelling stations and their infrastructure centers. We know a loroi mind machine interface of sorts exist so there's obviously a way that this can be done.

Honestly though, the thing that interests me, is if a human can interact with that interface in some way.

Warhammer 40,000 is barely science fiction at all. It's Warhammer Fantasy with guns and spaceships.

40k is...complicated and hugely depends on the writer. But while it might be really weird in terms of technology it's actually fairly amazing sci fi in terms of sociology. Many of the human societies in 40k are driven to the extreme but often internally actually manage to work out in a very interesting manner.

But yeah, pretty much two things are consistent in 40k.
a) the actual technology is so advanced no one actually understands it anymore. (they're cavemen who have a cellphone factory and know how to use them, but but they don't understand how it works as they don't even have access to all the intricacies of the hardware and cant even get to the source code)
Which is really nicely shown on a couple of times. For instance when that one mechanicum ship has a hiccup and goes into full combat mode for a short time. With weapons, targeters and computers coming online about which no one even knew.
b) Magic in the setting is real and ancient humanity was able harness it.