Page 92

[Imbrooge]

You are forgetting one thing, space vessals in the outsider 'verse are really expensive. It is very inefficient to send anything for deep space exploration missions with more then what is necessary for the vessal to do it's job. Not to mention that it's pointless if everything you have is so far outclassed that anything you make for the sole intention of combat is a waste of money.

@Mjolnir:
Except you know the fact that it's an intact alien device, space junk or not, the Loroi made a big enough deal to risk their fleet over a space wreck and blow the thing up so the Umniak couldn't get their hands on it, a random unidentified seemingly alien object floating in space that looks intact would most likely be salvaged with as much rigor. Whether or not they'll find it is a another matter but if they do they won't ignore it. Thats how the Terrans got in contact with the fleeing refugees afterall.

[Mjolnir]

Except you know the fact that it's an intact alien device, space junk or not, the Loroi made a big enough deal to risk their fleet over a space wreck and blow the thing up so the Umniak couldn't get their hands on it, a random unidentified seemingly alien object floating in space that looks intact would most likely be salvaged with as much rigor. Whether or not they'll find it is a another matter but if they do they won't ignore it. Thats how the Terrans got in contact with the fleeing refugees afterall.

You only know that if you actually find the thing, notice that it's not a random rock, and pick it up. Odds of that occurring are effectively nil. Even if you suspect one's in the system and in the area of a jump zone, it will require a very thorough survey to have any chance at finding such an object. We're not talking projectiles or starships here, we're talking a little box that listens for a particular signal and sends a message in response, and will be put on a low speed trajectory like all the other debris in the system so it's still in the right general area when the message's recipient comes along. It's not going to lead anyone to the Terran worlds. And it's not how we contacted the Orgus...a starship of refugees fled into Terran space.

[Tamren]

What farseers can sense (without detrimental effects) is the spatial location of minds. While this can be used to transmit information by giving specific formations of ships specific meanings. The speed at which random concepts could be transmitted would be very slow and incredibly inconvenient. Transmission speed of predetermined concepts would be much faster but far more limited and still very inconvenient.

Makes me wonder how effective telepathic semaphore could be.

[Mjolnir]

Makes me wonder how effective telepathic semaphore could be.

Just wire up your crew's brains so you can rapidly put them to sleep and wake them up to blink out the message to watching farseers.

[Nemo]

I was thinking take prisoners, execute prisoners in batches... small small small.. big big big... small small small... oh snap!

[Aygar]

Makes me wonder how effective telepathic semaphore could be.

Just wire up your crew's brains so you can rapidly put them to sleep and wake them up to blink out the message to watching farseers.

Has sleep ever been confirmed as a means to suppress a farseen contact?

[Aygar]

What farseers can sense (without detrimental effects) is the spatial location of minds. While this can be used to transmit information by giving specific formations of ships specific meanings. The speed at which random concepts could be transmitted would be very slow and incredibly inconvenient. Transmission speed of predetermined concepts would be much faster but far more limited and still very inconvenient.

Makes me wonder how effective telepathic semaphore could be.

Depends on what you mean by effective.

With predefined symbol message mappings like '1/2 fuel expended', '1/2 consumables expended', 'need fuel', 'need consumables', 'return to base', 'rally at point alpha' and so on use at most 2 symbols to transmit and would be very effective on the semaphore.

The message 'The emperor commands you to return to the home system to attend tea and crumpets at 12:30 with other invited guests.' which contains approx 40 symbols would grind the semaphore to a halt making the semaphore vastly less effective. I would be surprised if telepathic semaphore could transmit faster then 1 symbol per hour.

[Tamren]

Assuming the Farseer can sense minds all the way down to one person alone on a single ship. How accurate would they be with detecting position?

If they had enough fine control I suppose you could use fighter craft to spell out a sort of braille. Certainly something more efficient than 1 per hour.

[Arioch]

Farseers have difficulty distinguishing ship crews from planetary populations in the same system (if they're of the same species), so I think this clearly implies they don't have the resolution to distinguish formations or small-scale maneuvers.

However, large-scale movements can certainly be used as triggers for action. Just as the detection of an approaching Umiak fleet can be the trigger for an interdiction response, the unscheduled movement or retreat of a Loroi fleet can be a trigger for reinforcement (or other movement). If planned in advance and according to a schedule, there are a variety of situations that can be telegraphed to the watching Farseers by unusual large-scale movments.

Officer: "General Kala, war rocket Ajax is on approach. Their radio appears to be out."
Kala: "Are they in the approach pattern for today?"
Officer: "No, General."
Kala: "Open fire!"
Officer: "On Ajax??"
Kala: "OPEN FIRE!! ALL WEAPONS!!"

[Tamren]

Ah I see now. So say two ships jump closer to friendly lines and then fly in separate directions to a predetermined distance. This could clearly be used to communicate something or other. There are all sorts of variations you could plan off of manoeuvres like this. Complex orders would still need a courier but you could easily have enough "symbols" to convey important points.

[Karst45]

it stays silent and looks like a random bit of drifting space junk.

That oddly seem to have a pattern you dont want to have them drift away or there will be more calculation involved (and hardware) to have them send the signal to the next one.

That or if they drift too much they may get lost.

Makes me wonder how effective telepathic semaphore could be.

Just wire up your crew's brains so you can rapidly put them to sleep and wake them up to blink out the message to watching farseers.

Has sleep ever been confirmed as a means to suppress a farseen contact?

well unless you suppress all brain activity, i think they could detect something,

maybe a minimal crew in put into a coma could make it hard for the farseer to detect the said ship. but such ship wouldnt last long against the loroi patrol.

[bunnyboy]

So instead of giving scouts everything they need from best of available,
you wan't send them around in cheap rustbuckets and write "message in bottle",
which some actual war-space-ship can come pick up?

[Mjolnir]

That oddly seem to have a pattern you dont want to have them drift away or there will be more calculation involved (and hardware) to have them send the signal to the next one.

Uh...what? So far as that makes any sense at all, it doesn't seem related to the idea being discussed. We aren't talking about a network of communications relays or anything that has to do any sort of complex calculations.

That or if they drift too much they may get lost.

Get lost where? How far do you expect it to go in the time periods involved?

[bunnyboy]

Lost in space.

Even if it is beeping, it isn't easy to find. Bigger than football, smaller than car, in somewhere in whole solar system.
You don't know its location, speed or path. You can send your activation signal and hope that isn't behind star or planet and get answer before someone else get interested of you.

It's like:

Caeser call one of his scouts and tell him.
"Go on Siberia and write everything you find out, on to tree and come back. Then, even if you die, I can send a legion to retrieve your message.
Also. We have new and warm jackets. We don't provide one for you to keep expenses low, but be happy that every soldier will have one."

[Mjolnir]

Even if it is beeping, it isn't easy to find.

Yes, it is.

Bigger than football, smaller than car, in somewhere in whole solar system.

And the only thing in the entire system that is transmitting messages at your ship.

You don't know its location, speed or path. You can send your activation signal and hope that isn't behind star or planet and get answer before someone else get interested of you.

Do you have any idea how absurdly unlikely it is to be behind a planet even for one attempt, especially if it's in or near a jump zone? And if that miracle occurs, for it to remain behind a planet for multiple contact attempts from a ship transiting the system? Or that, given the fact that they're going into a warzone, they might decide some redundancy is in order and launch two or three buoys?

It's right out in plain sight. The only reason it isn't picked up by random passersby is that it looks completely uninteresting until you ping it with the right command. It could be programmed to react to identification embedded in the radar used by the ship it was left for, point a dish at the ship when it comes by, and announce "I am here".

Caeser call one of his scouts and tell him.
"Go on Siberia and write everything you find out, on to tree and come back. Then, even if you die, I can send a legion to retrieve your message.
Also. We have new and warm jackets. We don't provide one for you to keep expenses low, but be happy that every soldier will have one."

...no, it's not even remotely like that in any way.

[Arioch]

A long-range scout starship is a very expensive, cutting-edge piece of hardware, especially for Humanity. Traveling these distances is not routine for humans; they don't have any cheap "rust-bucket" starships that can travel farther than any human vessel ever has. The people manning these ships are the best and brightest, because their mission is critical. They are doing hazardous duty, and losses are expected, but they are hardly "expendable." Humanity has only 10 such ships (well, 9 now), and no replacements in the pipeline.

Even if you did have some kind of cheap run-down trash ships that you could send... I don't think such rust-buckets would make a very good first impression on the aliens you're attempting to contact.

Heh, well, no worries, Arioch, do you have a sample of what the human military ships textures are like?

Not really, but there's a closer shot of the cruiser in a few pages; I'll show you a color version when it's done.

Grats on starting a brand new chapter Arioch!

Thanks!

[sunphoenix]

Yeah Arioch... I hope our enthusiastic support of the forums have inspired you to more frequently publish new pages!

Its a small part that we can do but I, at least, hope it helps!

[Sprawl63]

A long-range scout starship is a very expensive, cutting-edge piece of hardware, especially for Humanity. Traveling these distances is not routine for humans; they don't have any cheap "rust-bucket" starships that can travel farther than any human vessel ever has. The people manning these ships are the best and brightest, because their mission is critical. They are doing hazardous duty, and losses are expected, but they are hardly "expendable." Humanity has only 10 such ships (well, 9 now), and no replacements in the pipeline.

Even if you did have some kind of cheap run-down trash ships that you could send... I don't think such rust-buckets would make a very good first impression on the aliens you're attempting to contact.

Heh, well, no worries, Arioch, do you have a sample of what the human military ships textures are like?

Not really, but there's a closer shot of the cruiser in a few pages; I'll show you a color version when it's done.

Grats on starting a brand new chapter Arioch!

Thanks!

Is that '9' left an official number or yet to be declared?

[Cy83r]

Ah I see now. So say two ships jump closer to friendly lines and then fly in separate directions to a predetermined distance. This could clearly be used to communicate something or other. There are all sorts of variations you could plan off of manoeuvres like this. Complex orders would still need a courier but you could easily have enough "symbols" to convey important points.

Farseers have difficulty distinguishing ship crews from planetary populations in the same system...

The operative word here is "jump" not "fly". Long-range maneuver-based Farsensing communications would require synchronised binary jump/no-jump patterns across multiple systems. Alternately, one or more fast couriers could perform jingle-jangle style maneuvers between two adjacent systems, hopping back and forth rapidly within certain time-windows. Even with just a series of couriers, forming up, jumping, setting up for the jump back (aka canceling your inertia and then reversing it), and repeating would be excessively time-consuming.

Forced comas followed by revivals are also likely, but I'm just guessing here, to be medically unfeasible unless you had some sort of simple, psychically-active, cyborg brain attached to a coma-switch; such biotech might 'burn out', possibly rather quickly, and require replacing a more-or-less disembodied and fatally abused sentient brain. And I'll take a further guess and presume that the Loroi might find this idea a little abhorrent.

[Trantor]

Even if you did have some kind of cheap run-down trash ships that you could send... I don't think such rust-buckets would make a very good first impression on the aliens you're attempting to contact.

Well, they were´nt too much impressed by the bell, too...