Hyperspace

[Mjolnir]

And, as i understand it, you exit hyperspace with a remarkable amount of speed. Inside a star or a gas giant his would inflict the same damage like crashing into something on a realspace vector. I doubt you can make any doomsdaymachine that accident-proof.

Forget about accidents, you're talking about intentionally popping out into an environment that's likely less survivable than a continuous Wave Loom barrage.

[Trantor]

And, as i understand it, you exit hyperspace with a remarkable amount of speed. Inside a star or a gas giant his would inflict the same damage like crashing into something on a realspace vector. I doubt you can make any doomsdaymachine that accident-proof.

Forget about accidents, you're talking about intentionally popping out into an environment that's likely less survivable than a continuous Wave Loom barrage.

That´s what i meant: Directly crashing into dense (and hot and irradiated and what the heck else...) matter.

[Voitan]

I'm telling ya: warp torpedoes.

A nuke isn't going to take care of those pesky ultraheavies in one shot, so just boot them into hyperspace and make your troubles disappear.

I finally see what you mean here.

Hit a target with a "torpedo" that envelops it in a jump field, and set it to purposely go into either deep space (thus stranded potentially forever) or the inside of a star.

The next question comes, do you need enough energy to jump both objects? Or is a lack of energy good enough to cause a catastrophe similar to a or exactly like bad jump, like going into a star, or being stranded in space?

[icekatze]

hi hi

Since the hyperspace generator opens up a rift in space time, I wonder if someone could use that as a defense mechanism. If you are invading a system, you could open up a rift in-between you and the opposing fleet, but rather than fly through it, you let their beam and torpedo attacks go through it instead.

[Mjolnir]

Since the hyperspace generator opens up a rift in space time, I wonder if someone could use that as a defense mechanism. If you are invading a system, you could open up a rift in-between you and the opposing fleet, but rather than fly through it, you let their beam and torpedo attacks go through it instead.

I think it specifically doesn't open up a "rift" that objects then pass through, but instead forces the ship along a direction that matter is not normally free to move in, into hyperspace. Doing this to incoming fire is an interesting idea, but I suspect it would be easier to deflect it in a normal-space direction. Unless shot traps are a particular issue...

[Arioch]

A "warp torpedo" must get essentially to within point-blank range of its target to be able to envelop it within a jump field. And let's remember that a starship (which has much greater power generation than a torpedo) requires several minutes to generate a jump field powerful enough to warp itself. So the enemy would have to let this warp torpedo approach, latch on, and charge for at least several minutes while doing nothing about it.

Given that much cheaper conventional torpedoes, which are pretty much a one-shot-one-kill weapon, rarely survive to engagement range and do direct damage, does this warp torpedo really sound like a practical weapon?

[elizibar]

Too bad we can't do something like stick a warp generator inside of a gas giant and accurately stream the hydrogen and helium to a place of our choosing. It would probably take more energy than the fusing of those materials would release to do that.

Still, that'd make an amusing weapon. Smuggle a warp generator into a 'safe' planet's ocean and spray the water out into space, resulting in an environmental catastrophe. (Or strip most of a planet's atmosphere.)

If you can't drop an asteroid on a planet, it'd be the next best (and infinitely more expensive) thing.

[fredgiblet]

Although I must admit I do like "unending terror."

Then speak it into existence and it will forever be canon.

[osmium]

I forget back from the old space tug conversation, can you use one ship to throw another into hyperspace without needing to actually follow?

I could see some interesting usage of such an effect.

1) you could have a torpedo platform one system away and if you're accurate enough you could sling torpedoes into the system. You would already have to warp the torpedoes into the system on a ship, so unless there is some weird efficiency thing whereby it's better to get your mass all in one big package I think it looks like this would generally be more efficient, provided of course you could get the torpedoes close enough/ accurately enough to the engagement area. You would have to have some sort of railgun/jump engine device to send back small probes with the coordinates...

2)Truthfully though, it seems like this sort of capability would significantly dent the whole transmission speed through systems problem as it would mean it would only take the time it takes to charge a railgun/jumpdrive/comm-probe to launch it into the next system at which point probe passes along the message to the next "horse" which launches another into the next system. Of course such a system would be complex and easily attacked so for systems that might actually see combat they should rely on ships rather than "fixed" installations that need to be protected.

So back to 1) a bit. You could sling torpedoes into the system and try to do things like "launch" torpedoes from all directions (by trying to "hit" your fleet with said torpedoes the error in arrival should put said torpedoes all over between the Loroi fleet, Umiak fleet behind,above,below,left and right of said positions.) Now if the error is too great to hit an area that encompasses the region that would take 2 minutes for a torpedo to accelerate into said combat (i.e. the longish edge of torpedo range). Occasionally you'd get lucky and some would land like right in the middle of the Loroi fleet, even if said torpedoes were shot down fast they would likely cause some problems with targeting and sensors providing much the same effect as cover fire (rather than the same effect as peasant infantry did (read fodder) in medieval combat that a volley of torpedoes coming from the fleet would provide). You might even save energy and would certainly save money on the torpedo craft by not requiring said craft to be capable of performing combat maneuvers nor being capable of actual combat, as it would essentially be artillery, but sorta more like paratroopers.

3) you *might* be able to use very large craft (like the supersuper heavies) to "throw" disabled ships back a system to waiting support craft that can scavenge them.

Obviously any non-combat craft that came with the mainfleet would stay back and jump after given the all clear into the same system as the combat craft they were convoying with (to limit the probability of the Loroi jumping into the system with the soft targets, although they would still be somewhat vulnerable in an ambush while both parts of the fleet were in the same system).

4)You could use the comm-probe catapult to send information to other systems, in defensive situations without a farseer you could call for reinforcements, or warn of attack and get relatively quick responses. Even if you can't "throw" stuff without a jump drive of it's own, in this case it wouldn't matter, you could just have a jump drive / big capacitor to power it for a single jump and accelerate it on a rail / coil gun and throw the whole pseudo ship into a system you control (where it can be retrieved). The use of being able to call for reinforcements and have them arrive basically the moment trouble starts means they could possibly send reinforcements before the battle ended.
Of course this doesn't get rid of the feint where you then attack the system the reinforcements would come from, but still having the capability might be nice... Especially if you were the Orgus or something, they attack you first relatively undefended system and within like say an hour (the time it takes to actually start to attack said first system) all of your systems have been warned and people can flee.


-O

[Mjolnir]

A "warp torpedo" must get essentially to within point-blank range of its target to be able to envelop it within a jump field. And let's remember that a starship (which has much greater power generation than a torpedo) requires several minutes to generate a jump field powerful enough to warp itself. So the enemy would have to let this warp torpedo approach, latch on, and charge for at least several minutes while doing nothing about it.

Since the ship doesn't have to survive in this case, how hard would it be to just take a chunk out of it? A special weapon intended for use in capturing (most of) an already-damaged ship, removing its fuel stores to prevent scuttling...

Or perhaps not an anti-ship weapon, but a tactical weapon for use against ground targets in areas where just blowing the target up would cause too much damage...the expense might actually be worthwhile in that case.

[Arioch]

A jump-capable tug must usually have jump field generators powerful enough for the total mass of the two ships and able to project the field to cover both ships.

If you have two objects that are connected, and you project a jump field over only one of them, then normally that other object (or part of the object) would be ripped away from the object that was not covered by the field. However, if those objects are structurally strong enough to withstand this force, or are protected by an inertial damping field (which they must be, if they're manned), then the result is that the field will try to push the whole combined object through the portal it has created. But if the energy of the field is not sufficient to propel both objects through the portal, then the jump attempt will fail, and neither object will enter hyperspace.

It's not really possible for one ship to "throw" another object into hyperspace without entering hyperspace itself. You can use another ship to tow the object into the correct vector, and perhaps use some kind of attachable "jump pack" to perform the jump, but whatever generator that creates the jump field is going into hyperspace along with the object.

I don't imagine that trying to activate a jump field on a planet's surface would do very much. A planet is at the bottom of its own gravity well, so it would take a lot of energy to give any chunk of it enough momentum to go anywhere.

[elizibar]

I don't imagine that trying to activate a jump field on a planet's surface would do very much. A planet is at the bottom of its own gravity well, so it would take a lot of energy to give any chunk of it enough momentum to go anywhere.

Which is really too bad. The fun possibilities...

[Nathan_]

So an object that enters hyperspace exits it with the same velocity and vector that it had as it entered.

I wonder if anyone in-universe has thought of strapping low-impulse engines on asteroids, had them gradually build up to Ludicrous Speed and then make a "suicide jump" into an enemy planet? It's an RKV that you don't know is coming until it pops out of hyperspace a couple light-seconds away from splashing your industrial planet.

If an object weren't worried about personal safety, how close to a gravity well could an object get?

the mass of an RKV would skyrocket as its velocity got up to the really fun speeds, making the jump prohibitive in energy cost unfortunately.

[NOMAD]

Nice answer nathan_, simple and too the point,

But I wonder, what is an optimum jump distance from a solar system ? I saw the Pic arioch put up for how the Gravity well effects a jump drive entry and exit: nevertheless, I would imagine that every system has slight differences in order to reach a "Sweet-spot" for a jump.

IIRC, their also a slight error to the exit vector distance from the calculated distance. How much is it ?

final question: what about an jumping into an unknown system ? I understand that currently, even at our present tech level ( in RL) that their are various means of determining a gravity well? How accurate would these reading need to be for a jump to be successful ?

[Arioch]

Optimal jump distance from a sun like ours is somewhere in the neighborhood of 5 AU. The potential magnitude of the variance depends on how much risk is being taken; if you're aiming right down the middle, then the variance in your exit point is probably less than 1 AU.

The business of scouts exploring new systems is a dangerous one. You can estimate a star's mass pretty accurately just by measuring its spectrum. Learning where the planets are can be trickier. Ideally you'd like to observe the star for at least a few weeks watching for any planetary transits across its disc. If you see any, it's not safe to jump; you're in the plane of the ecliptic, and it's best to seek another route.

[GeoModder]

The business of scouts exploring new systems is a dangerous one. You can estimate a star's mass pretty accurately just by measuring its spectrum. Learning where the planets are can be trickier. Ideally you'd like to observe the star for at least a few weeks watching for any planetary transits across its disc. If you see any, it's not safe to jump; you're in the plane of the ecliptic, and it's best to seek another route.

I would think that nor the mass of a planet, nor its position in a close(r) orbit (even in the 'jumpline') would be cause of much alarm? Interplanetary space is still pretty volumous around any star.

[Mjolnir]

I would think that nor the mass of a planet, nor its position in a close(r) orbit (even in the 'jumpline') would be cause of much alarm? Interplanetary space is still pretty volumous around any star.

Something like Jupiter might be cause for concern, but observing for a couple weeks will have a chance of seeing a transit of about 1 in 300, and then only if you're almost precisely in the right plane...and if its dangerous at times other than during the transit itself, for every orbit that transits a star, there'll be a wide range of dangerous orbits that don't. Looking for transits seems very unlikely to help avoid a dangerous jump.

Objects in closer orbit are more likely to transit the star and will do so more frequently (though even Mercury will only do so every 88 days), so if the ecliptic is just a hazardous place to jump into a system it might be worthwhile to check. It seems like you'd be better off deploying a large telescope and imaging the destination system directly. Planets on the dangerous side of their orbits will be less visible that way (mostly showing you their shadowed sides), but you're more likely to be able to determine the ecliptic plane of the target system. A couple weeks of transit should be enough to unfold an occulter and get some good images of the destination system. (Something like this: http://newworlds.colorado.edu/starshade/index.htm)

[osmium]

I guess it comes down to technicalities, but it would stem from specifically which part of the jump drive does the work and where the expense lies in said jump drive. If you basically cannot separate the components of a jump drive (say like you *can't* a tokamak) than it would depend upon the scaling of cost of jump drive and cost of transporting mass.

I think it might still be feasible depending on the cost structure to absorb the cost of a jump drive into the utility gained by various rail probe / rail torpedo jump systems. Certainly they would be special use devices, but I just can't forsee how you could possible limit the technology such that near instantaneous communication would not be worth the cost, I mean such a system could reduce the time to send a message by an order of magnitude which must be worth something to the Umiak (the Loroi already have their methods ^_^).

Another random question for people, do ships "tugging" another ship along with them have to be physically touching, or does the hyperspace effect drag nearby objects along with. Because you could try to jump a *lot* of "disposable" torpedo crates in with a single low to mid power jump engine by remote charging the engine and throwing a bunch of torpedoes at it and having it jump dragging them all along with it (or perhaps it requires some sort of complicated tethering system to catch the torpedoes first). Regardless you could use such a system to put some targets further into the system than your attack fleet to help screen your arrival (esp for umiak).

-O

[Arioch]

Page 88 won't be up until later today, but the updates to the FTL page are up now. There are a few new diagrams and illustrations, and it's rewritten to be hopefully more informative.

do ships "tugging" another ship along with them have to be physically touching, or does the hyperspace effect drag nearby objects along with.

Only objects within the scope of the jump field will be drawn into hyperspace.

[Aygar]

Page 88 won't be up until later today,

Squeeeeee

but the updates to the FTL page are up now. There are a few new diagrams and illustrations, and it's rewritten to be hopefully more informative.

do ships "tugging" another ship along with them have to be physically touching, or does the hyperspace effect drag nearby objects along with.

Only objects within the scope of the jump field will be drawn into hyperspace.

To the rethink'ning.

--Aygar