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[BattleRaptor]

Insider states humans are 200 years behind the Loroi.

It was stated on the forums Humans advance 10 times faster then the Loroi.

Humans are said in outsider to be 3 generations behind the Loroi.

200/10=20
20/3=~6.6

Depending on how long Current generation of ships have been around... Humans are between 20 and 13.4 years behind the Lorois current tech.

This isnt the massive gap people are making out.

just a FYI.

[sunphoenix]

"If there is ANYTHING your race will contribute to the annals ot galactic history it will be the quality of their slave labor..."
- Quote [ Rygel XVI - Hynerian Empire Dominar ]

[BattleRaptor]

But Humans are Superior!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BljF9em ... age#t=156s

[Nemo]

Insider states humans are 200 years behind the Loroi.

It was stated on the forums Humans advance 10 times faster then the Loroi.

Humans are said in outsider to be 3 generations behind the Loroi.

200/10=20
20/3=~6.6

Depending on how long Current generation of ships have been around... Humans are between 20 and 13.4 years behind the Lorois current tech.

This isnt the massive gap people are making out.

just a FYI.

No, I dont think so. Humans are 200 years of development away from the Loroi, and thats given our developmental edge. It took the Loroi millennia to get where they are and they didnt lift themselves up by their bootstraps. Impressive to be sure, but not so much so that we can make any meaningful contribution with industrial or military might in a timely manner. Certainly not if Alex is correct about the absurd coincidence.

[BattleRaptor]

The wording used in outsider insider has no room for ambiguity

The Loroi were using weapons and systems similar to what the Terrans have now (plus fighters) in the big war that formed their empire several hundred years ago.

http://well-of-souls.com/outsider/forum_terrans.html

[Fireblade]

It sounds like people are expecting humanity to be the hero of the story, rather than Alex. Maybe that makes sense in that Alex doesn't do much in the first chapter, and that we don't learn much about him as an individual person. So maybe people just see him as a proxy for humanity, and not a hero in his own right.

But "humanity" gets its butt roundly kicked in the first few pages of the story, and the narrator explicitly tells us that humanity doesn't have significant forces that can come to the rescue and make any kind of difference in the conflict. Alex is totally out of contact with humanity. He has no one to rely on but himself.

It's pretty plain when the narrator lays it out for you himself. "In short, Earth needed heroes. That's where I came in."

[Siber]

The Loroi were using tech similar to 'current' Terrans in the empire formation war? The first Loroi emperor came to power sometime between 1323 and 1402. I'll assume 1402 for sake of generosity. 'Now' is 2160, so it's been 758 years of RnD then. The forum digest last linked says Loroi tech is three generations ahead of humans. What exactly a generation of technology means is highly ambiguous, if we assume it means human population generations, I have always taken that to mean 20 years. That means 60 years. If humans advance 10 times faster than Loroi, this is roughly consistent, it will take us 60 years what it too them roughly 700 years to do. Assuming instead that that multiple apples to the statement of generations would mean we actually advance more along the lines of 100 times faster, which is contradictory and thus probably wrong.

[dfacto]

Maybe mankind's contribution is being very good at bluffing?

Now i got it: Pesticides! We have pesticides! Yay, win!

We've got this:



Quake in fear, Umiak scum.

[NOMAD]

So, we can't physically contribut to the Loroi struggle in terms of ships and personnel; however, as mention you could aid them in RnD. But waht about our terrirtory and its jump points.

This angle (which I've stated before in the old forum and here as well) is that we might contribute to. granted we have a rough idea of where Loroi and Umiak space will be and the broader of the main conflict. Now, granted, the distance might be very long but it might be worth the effort if a new and unexpected front could open up might turn the war in the Loroi favors ( for once)

another effect might be studying the human Lotai telepathic mask ( or lack of Far-seeing detection) since the Far-seeing jammer, for lack of better words, is A) Telepathic is nature and thus, our abilities might be able to get in close to one of the jamming ships (or location of the device or person IE since telepathy is biological in nature and non-machine reproducible: as far as we know) and disable/capture the device in a key battle or strategic move

B) The Loroi might be able to find a full or somewhat effective ( note: can't find the right word) counter to the jammer that would allow far-seers to able to regain some form of LR detection. Weird theory and the mask ability might be alien in origin, but I figure some research into the Counter-mask ability ( involving safe- non gruesome RnD) on humans might prove useful, no matter what slim chance that any useful results could be attained.

[NOMAD]

Maybe mankind's contribution is being very good at bluffing?

Now i got it: Pesticides! We have pesticides! Yay, win!

We've got this:



Quake in fear, Umiak scum.

you wouldn'thappen to have XXXXXXXL large cans, since the Umaik are REALLY big bugs.

[TheUnforsaken]

Technological generations are a pretty fluid term, really. Today we have 5th Generation fighters and 7th Generation game consoles...and I don't recall hearing of people playing Pong in 1900.

And while I wouldn't expect to see purely human designed/built ships able to go toe-to-toe with Loroi/Umiak equivalents for a few decades I disagree that humans couldn't provide any benefit at all. It all depends, really, on how compatible Loroi tech is to human tech, and on how much industry the Loroi can spare.

Ideally, the next generation of human warships would consist mostly of carrier and missile/torpedo armed capital ships, using Loroi built (but human piloted) fighters and Loroi built missiles (from what I've seen the missiles appear to be self guiding ie. they don't need an advanced ship-based sensor system to guide them to their target). And lighter Point Defense ships to protect the capships from Umiak barrages. Even better if they can figure out how to bolt-on a Loroi shield system to those ships. Put these ships in a system defense role, where their dodgy engines aren't such a handicap, and they could allow the Loroi to free up their ships to do what they do best...raid.

In the meantime, Alex has his hands full

My 2 cents.

[Rosen_Ritter_1]

I could see humankind acting as auxiliaries, which is to say, filling spaces on ships. The problem is whether the Loroi would need that; I kind of doubt they have the industry to crank out a bunch of new ships or to hand out obsolete ones, and they're pretty paranoid about handing out tech to people they don't trust.

Loroi starships are already pretty light on crew. Plus there's the whole fact of integrating extremely uncanny aliens into the crew who don't share any of your warriors view points.



With regards to Human tech advancement. One particular reason I'm a bit dubious about the idea we're really not that far behind the Loroi (even accounting for human culture being friendlier to tech advancement) is predominantly because there's a pretty big gap between demonstrated human and Loroi/Umiak tech. Think about it. a 2.2 by 2 kilometer Umiak TTK ultra heavy with it's 18G acceleration can outrun a human torpedo accelerating at 12 G's. Then there's the other weapons disparities.



This doesn't really come off as the kind off as the kind of tech disparity that the humans were naturally going to overcome any time soon. Like the Loroi/Umiak reaction drives, they seem to be based on entirely different technology than the Terrans. Technology that doesn't look like human engineers and scientists have even contemplated building any time soon.

Technological generations are a pretty fluid term, really. Today we have 5th Generation fighters and 7th Generation game consoles...and I don't recall hearing of people playing Pong in 1900.

And while I wouldn't expect to see purely human designed/built ships able to go toe-to-toe with Loroi/Umiak equivalents for a few decades I disagree that humans couldn't provide any benefit at all. It all depends, really, on how compatible Loroi tech is to human tech, and on how much industry the Loroi can spare.

Ideally, the next generation of human warships would consist mostly of carrier and missile/torpedo armed capital ships, using Loroi built (but human piloted) fighters and Loroi built missiles (from what I've seen the missiles appear to be self guiding ie. they don't need an advanced ship-based sensor system to guide them to their target). And lighter Point Defense ships to protect the capships from Umiak barrages. Even better if they can figure out how to bolt-on a Loroi shield system to those ships. Put these ships in a system defense role, where their dodgy engines aren't such a handicap, and they could allow the Loroi to free up their ships to do what they do best...raid.

Not sure that's very economical. Outsider verse torpedo's bassically are equipped with starship drives. So this isn't exactly a cheap solution. Only the Umiak really have the industrial capacity to use missle boats en mass. I don't think human ships supplied torpedos by the Loroi would fair very well in long range missle warfare with an Umiak fleet. For the Loroi, I might just be more economical to build more ships for themselves than throw missiles and small fighter craft at the humans.

[BattleRaptor]

I know its a web comic.. but it makes no sense at all that Terran ships would fire such massive rounds.

Half the weight double the speed and you still have double the energy.
Pluss double the effective range.

Need to stop making midnight posts...
Edited to be correct.

[dfacto]

I have to agree, 200 Kg for a railgun round seems ludicrously large. There's going to be a problem with storing rounds that large in a ship. That's a lot of extra weight if you assume they have more than ten shots. Then again this isn't real life, so you can wave off weight for artistic license. After all the Loroi have huge amounts of useless crap on their ships (like super spacious command decks and corridors) and they don't seem to be slowed much.

Also I assume you reduce your maximal muzzle velocity by increasing round size. I'm not well versed in electrical engineering, but I have a hunch that the relationship between mass and electrical energy required to accelerate it to a given speed isn't linear (as with rocket fuel and ship speed). For anyone who may know, is that true?

[Aygar]

It wouldn't matter anyway if the Loroi gave humanity access to all their military technology, we only have six colonies, nowhere near enough industrial capacity to build a war machine of any consequence. If anything resources, industrial capability and logistics are the biggest concern for the Loroi atm as the Umiak can churn out ships like Catholics multiply.

This is something that appears to have been overlooked in this argument.

Humanity has 6 colonized worlds in 4 systems, of those worlds only 2 of which could be considered heavily industrialized (Earth, Mars). The other 4 worlds are not yet self-sufficient and depend on Earth and Mars for their finished goods needs.

The Loroi have 50 inhabited systems with at least one inhabited planet each. The Loroi Union controls several hundred systems.

If we assume that Earth and Mars will have a similar productive output as a single Loroi system (which they wouldn't be. 1. Earth and Mars are not on a full war economy, 2. Earth and Mars must supply the other 4 worlds), and that the Loroi only produce in their own systems (Which they won't, they will be pulling parts and assemblies from all of the union member worlds). The addition of humanity to the war effort would be a paltry 2% increase in production capability (and begs the question, why are the Loroi using Humanity to produce war goods when they aren't using their allies production as well).

If instead assume that all worlds in the Loroi Union are fully committed to the war effort and assume a minimum 200 systems for several hundred. Then addition of humanity to the Loroi Union results in 0.5% increase in total production.

Humanity does not currently have the infrastructure to meaningfully affect the outcome of the War. Also additional infrastructure will require significant amounts of time to create, probably 50 to 100 years or more.

--Aygar

[osmium]

2 points:

1) the Loroi timeline is not in wartime and is largely due to their cultural traditions, not their actual capacity. So just using simple math isn't really going to give you a reasonable approximation. Much like the 1/2+7 rule for creepiness while dating. Perhaps humans just maintain a higher non-wartime level of progress? etc

2) with the railgun, it's designed to be used against similar acceleration vessels as other terran ships. vs Loroi or Umiak level acceleration it doesn't matter how small you make it you're unlikely to hit anything at the ranges the enemy can fire at. (Also it might not be double, as there is a non-linear relationship between accuracy and closing time of the "projectile" as we're dealing with acceleration, not velocity)

-O

[dfacto]

1) the Loroi timeline is not in wartime and is largely due to their cultural traditions, not their actual capacity. So just using simple math isn't really going to give you a reasonable approximation. Much like the 1/2+7 rule for creepiness while dating. Perhaps humans just maintain a higher non-wartime level of progress? etc

Or maybe we actually fight much much more than the Loroi? They say their hisory is one of constant bloodshed, but for all we know they might freak out if they read about human history and our nearly nonstop quest to kill the guy in the next country.

2) with the railgun, it's designed to be used against similar acceleration vessels as other terran ships. vs Loroi or Umiak level acceleration it doesn't matter how small you make it you're unlikely to hit anything at the ranges the enemy can fire at. (Also it might not be double, as there is a non-linear relationship between accuracy and closing time of the "projectile" as we're dealing with acceleration, not velocity)

In terms of Human vs Umiak/Loroi, yes it's still useless. But against other human ships I think it would matter.

[Trantor]

another effect might be studying the human Lotai telepathic mask ( or lack of Far-seeing detection) since the Far-seeing jammer, for lack of better words, is A) Telepathic is nature and thus, our abilities might be able to get in close to one of the jamming ships (or location of the device or person IE since telepathy is biological in nature and non-machine reproducible: as far as we know) and disable/capture the device in a key battle or strategic move

B) The Loroi might be able to find a full or somewhat effective ( note: can't find the right word) counter to the jammer that would allow far-seers to able to regain some form of LR detection. Weird theory and the mask ability might be alien in origin, but I figure some research into the Counter-mask ability ( involving safe- non gruesome RnD) on humans might prove useful, no matter what slim chance that any useful results could be attained.

That, or the umiak jamming is just a side effect of a new farseeing device of their own. That would be humanity´s jackpot then, assumed that we´re invisible to their device, too.

[Trantor]

Humanity has 6 colonized worlds in 4 systems, of those worlds only 2 of which could be considered heavily industrialized (Earth, Mars). The other 4 worlds are not yet self-sufficient and depend on Earth and Mars for their finished goods needs.

The Loroi have 50 inhabited systems with at least one inhabited planet each. The Loroi Union controls several hundred systems.

...The addition of humanity to the war effort would be a paltry 2% increase in production capability ...

Good point.
But IIRC nearly all of them lack metals and higher elements.

[Rosen_Ritter_1]

Or maybe we actually fight much much more than the Loroi? They say their hisory is one of constant bloodshed, but for all we know they might freak out if they read about human history and our nearly nonstop quest to kill the guy in the next country.

This is rather self flattering concept. Reminds me of that Twilight zone episode.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbT1fCHOjfI

But really. I don't think we have all that much reason to assume the Loroi don't have as violent of a primitive history as the humanity. I'd think their fast maturation and reproductive rates would lend themselves to fighting more aggressively than humans. Plus post starflight Loroi history seems to mostly be them uniting their species under a military dictatorship, and expanding it's influence over nearly a dozen different species, even committing xenocide against one that stood against them to hard.


Plus, I don't think people in the middle of fighting a xenocidal space war with major battles that involve thousands of capitol ships are going to be fundamentally disturbed by reading about the crusades.