Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

[Hālian]

I see lots of good plot hooks in here. :3

Also yes, we should be using GURPS instead of BESM. I would also be fine with Classic Traveller or Pathfinder.

[sunphoenix]

We could... but GURPS is a Very complicated system for ANY gaming group to tackle ...especially players who have likely had Very limited if Non experience with gaming. Which is why I did not suggest it. I n also don't have Any of it on pdf to hand out., plus it would need multiple books - GURPS core, GURPS Space, GURPS Ultra-tech, GURPS Psionics and maybe even GURPS Biotech... that a lot of pdfs to play one game!

Classic Traveller would work but access is the issue.. I have ALL the Far Futures - Book that were the reprints of ALL the Classic Traveller Game books... but I have NO pdf of that system to share. Then there is the system itself.. if you are familiar with it.. you can die in character generation, there is no point system for character creation - its a random die roll, AND there are no rules for any kind of reasonable character advancement! Character's NEVER get better other than taking a year of 'sabbatical" to possibly learn something new. Its a really primative system game system...

Pathfinder is a very visual based-battle map reliant game. How do you know if some one moved through a square you threatened for your AoO's? There is soo much of the battle system that requires a map as there are many feats based upon that kind of combat for tactical movement. Plus Pathfinder has NO psionics rules nor any attempt to produce one! Add to the that its a level based system in fantasy with only third party 'supplements' for technological genres.. its not a good choice.

3rd Edition's Dragonstar would be a better choice as it at least provides technological devices and psionics rules, and I DO have some pdf's of that system... but I'm really not fond of exp/level based systems for my High-tech games .. and still it has the same problems as Pathfinder.. it requires a battle map as a large chunk of its system of Combat feats requires a battle map to know exact positioning. Not to mention a Level-based system is ... primative in my opinion... the future of gaming is point-based charater generation systems...
'
Cthulhutech would work nicely actually... point based char5acter creation system, psionic rules, no need for a battle map... and I have all the pdf's. But its not nearly as simple as BESM!

BESM is simple and the rules straight-forward easy to grasp for new gamers .. and it ONLY needs ONE BOOK! Its really hard to argue with the usefulness of BESM for first-time gamers.

[Hālian]

In order...

I have PDFs.

Welp.

MapTools. Also, 3.5's XPH and etc. could be house ruled into PF. Or we could go straight 3.5.

What's Dragonstar? Again, MapTools. Fuck point-based character generation; I much prefer levels and XP.

Ew, point-based character generation.

No. No more BESM. >~< Also learn to format.

[Arioch]

We could... but GURPS is a Very complicated system for ANY gaming group to tackle ...especially players who have likely had Very limited if Non experience with gaming. Which is why I did not suggest it. I n also don't have Any of it on pdf to hand out., plus it would need multiple books - GURPS core, GURPS Space, GURPS Ultra-tech, GURPS Psionics and maybe even GURPS Biotech... that a lot of pdfs to play one game!

I'm not advocating which system to use -- I have no opinion on the subject -- but I'd just like to point out that you only need the core rules to play GURPS. The worldbooks are just extra stuff which is mainly helpful to the GM. The vast majority of the stuff in GURPS Space, Ultra-tech, Psionics, etc. wouldn't apply to the Outsider setting anyway. I use some GURPS systems to help describe my characters and settings (because I find it useful -- and fun), but my settings don't conform to GURPS rules.

Similarly, just because MOO2 was an inspiration for Outsider doesn't mean that you can expect Outsider to conform to MOO2 technology rules.

Also yes, we should be using GURPS instead of BESM.

....

Fuck point-based character generation; I much prefer levels and XP. Ew, point-based character generation.

GURPS is a point-based character generation system.

[Suederwind]

No more BESM.

So, whats your problem with that system?

[Hālian]

Also yes, we should be using GURPS instead of BESM.

....

Fuck point-based character generation; I much prefer levels and XP. Ew, point-based character generation.

GURPS is a point-based character generation system.

Is it? Shows what I know

The genericness of the system is intriguing, though, and might lead me to overlook that.

No more BESM.

So, whats your problem with that system?

I don't know... it just doesn't get me wanting to play it. >_>

[sunphoenix]

It would take a lot of retooling right NOW to switch systems in mid-game. And likely confuse what few players we have now.

I prefer point based-systems as the are inherently fairer. Everyone has the same ability to make a character... depending upon how they individually spent their points. In level based systems.. not all classess or feat are created equal and as such its possible for a neophyte player to get a character that they don't understand and does not do what they need it to do or is inferior due to their uninformed choices.

This is complicated even more in that most Experience point level-based systems award experience based on what the party is able to kill/defeat in combat and don't really have clear cut rules on awarding experience for pure role-play which in the gerne and setting of outsider we will be doing more role-play than combat. Whereas games that are pure point based... each point awarded can have a almost immediate and identifiable change in the characters abilities and proficiency.. unlike the 'Quantum' change in power with level based systems. I prefer the gradual slow development that point-based systems provide and easy mechanism for.

Is your opposition to BESM because of its anime' overtones, perhaps? The system does not need to have an anime' feel to it.. that is only how it is presented. I think the 'feel' of the Outsider Universe is still being maintained in our current game. Even though Torlief's Powered Exoskeleton stretches the facts already stated by Arioch that such mechanical innovations have not been developed beyond pop-culture space fantasy

[Suederwind]

Switching from BESM to a different system now would require a lot of work and I really don't see the benefit we would get from doing so.

[fredgiblet]

I prefer point based-systems as the are inherently fairer. Everyone has the same ability to make a character... depending upon how they individually spent their points. In level based systems.. not all classess or feat are created equal and as such its possible for a neophyte player to get a character that they don't understand and does not do what they need it to do or is inferior due to their uninformed choices.

It's very easy to create a terrible character with point-buy as well. I prefer it myself but it's not a bulwark against poor optimization.

[Charlie]

I find the BESM not the hardest system to use, but considering I have zero experience with any form of pen+paper it`s up for debate if it`s the easiest.

[Suederwind]

Well, I have created characters in BESM, Call of Cathuluh, Star Wars D6, Shadowrun and the dark eye (= Das Schwarze Auge, in German). Based on these systems and my experiences with them, I would say BESM is the easiest to start and get into. Its rules are easy to lern, universal and not very complicated. On the other hand, the Dark Eye, a system that I play with my regular RPG group is very complicated, with a lot of additional rules, guidelines and books. Technically you can play it with the basic rulebook, but that does not include all the fighting rules or skills, magic abilities/skills/powers, devine powers or a lot of information about non human races. Creating a character takes up to an hour, even with the help of a computerprogram and you can easily fuck up a character if you don't know what you are doing.
I have no experience with GURPS, but the few people I asked about it, told me that it was more complicated than BESM and recommended it for experienced players. As we have players in our game that have little to no experience at roleplaying and I have no rulebooks for that system, sunphoenix and I decided to use BESM back as we started the game and I still see no problem with that.

[discord]

any system can be optimized(or gamed as it is also known as) some game designers put some effort into balance, others not so much, which leads to.

Gurps: pretty balanced and very generic for instance I got a campaign running where we have three humans from different times and timelines(modern, WW2 and wild west) a jackal beastman gladiator from a barely iron age theocracy and finally a giant tiger apex predator from a prehistoric era somewhere as players running around on a ringworld together. the system is rather difficult to play, and the generally accepted houserule is remove and ignore rules as needed.
you can run just about anything on this system, transformers? Avatar(either of them)?, star wars? stargate? white wolves world of darkness? gene wolfe's new sun setting? hellboy? ghost busters? conan? traveller setting? post apoc robot rebellion? all can be run on GURPS, most of the settings I mentioned even got source books.
for forum play I would suggest stating chars and dumb down the rules something fierce(opposed melee? each rolls adding in applicable skill, modify for gear and environment, higher wins, act it out.)
experience helps with char creation of course, but not easily broken, biggest issue is a learning curve problem due to massive amount of choice.

BESM: a example where the game designers did not bother with much balancing, better suited for run and gun action/adventure campaigns with loose association to the laws of physics.

Feng shui: more action oriented but somewhat more balanced system, perfect for action movie like campaigns with a supernatural touch, I personally like.
big trouble in little china is a pretty good example of how a good feng shui campaign could start up.
would need to be reworked for this setting, so not suggesting it, just mentioned it because I happen to like the system.

Hero system: might work with little tweaking, but has the disadvantages of both BESM and Gurps at same time.

problem is you want a space opera system with support for psionics and that means either a custom made system or a generic simple system, GURPS being the outlier in that it is both generic and not simple.
GURPS Transhuman space seems pretty close to the outsider setting with reactionless drive and FTL, keep a lid on the transhumanism and including psionics....on second thought, probably just easier to mod basic GURPS yourselves.

bottom line, KISS is a good rule to follow on forum play, I would use Gurps, but if you started on BESM and it works I see no reason to change.(If it aint broke, don't fix it.)

[Grayhome]

Even though Torlief's Powered Exoskeleton stretches the facts already stated by Arioch that such mechanical innovations have not been developed beyond pop-culture space fantasy

While Arioch has stated that power-armor is a no-no, he has stated that he can envision mecha being around. So some Terran exoskeletons that were being used for engineering being weaponized could be possible. It wouldn't be anything close to the miniaturization that the Halo Spartan or even Space Marine power armor would necessitate, but something like Tau battle suits or Clan Elementals from Battletech could be crafted with T9 science. My initial thoughts on Battlesuit boarding actions would be that it would be kind of a squeeze to get a Battlesuit around inside a spaceship. However, judging by the wide corridors we have seen aboard the Tempest and considering that other races like the Umiak and Barsam are physically much larger than the Loroi, larger corridors would make interior repairs and maintenance far easier.

[Mr.Tucker]

Even though Torlief's Powered Exoskeleton stretches the facts already stated by Arioch that such mechanical innovations have not been developed beyond pop-culture space fantasy

While Arioch has stated that power-armor is a no-no, he has stated that he can envision mecha being around. So some Terran exoskeletons that were being used for engineering being weaponized could be possible. It wouldn't be anything close to the miniaturization that the Halo Spartan or even Space Marine power armor would necessitate, but something like Tau battle suits or Clan Elementals from Battletech could be crafted with T9 science. My initial thoughts on Battlesuit boarding actions would be that it would be kind of a squeeze to get a Battlesuit around inside a spaceship. However, judging by the wide corridors we have seen aboard the Tempest and considering that other races like the Umiak and Barsam are physically much larger than the Loroi, larger corridors would make interior repairs and maintenance far easier.

Wouldn't it be easier so just use a legged, scarab-esque tank? (if you're determined to use a walking machine). Easier to armor, same capabilities. Or a hover tank based on the same tech used to create the grav plating?


I noticed something odd in the shipboard weapon profiles page. Why are beam weapon damage numbers unsure? Like between x and y. Beams deposit their energy at the end of their travel time, so we should know exactly what damage is done, like the kinetic weapon table. Or is it dependent on target armor/shields/ presented profile?

[Arioch]

Wouldn't it be easier so just use a legged, scarab-esque tank? (if you're determined to use a walking machine). Easier to armor, same capabilities. Or a hover tank based on the same tech used to create the grav plating?

I think the point is that if you're being realistic, you wouldn't use legged vehicles at all.

I noticed something odd in the shipboard weapon profiles page. Why are beam weapon damage numbers unsure? Like between x and y. Beams deposit their energy at the end of their travel time, so we should know exactly what damage is done, like the kinetic weapon table. Or is it dependent on target armor/shields/ presented profile?

All damage is variable, depending on the location and angle of impact. Kinetic weapons are not considered to be viable ship to ship weapons in this setting, and so are included for completeness, but are not modeled to the same standard as beam weapons.

[Grayhome]

Arioch, what do you think the future of ground troops will be? Just a full bodied suit to protect from hazmat threats and an on board miniaturized CPU and HUD or not even that? How much money will the grunt of the future be worth to keep alive?

[Hālian]

It would take a lot of retooling right NOW to switch systems in mid-game. And likely confuse what few players we have now.

I was thinking of using GURPS for TdSmR if Roeben ever pops up. <_<

Is your opposition to BESM because of its anime' overtones, perhaps?

No... for that very reason I ought to like BESM. >_>

[Arioch]

Arioch, what do you think the future of ground troops will be? Just a full bodied suit to protect from hazmat threats and an on board miniaturized CPU and HUD or not even that? How much money will the grunt of the future be worth to keep alive?

It's not even a question of cost; the purpose of armor is to protect the soldier. When the armor gets heavy or cumbersome enough that it starts to impair the soldier's movement, it's doing more harm than good. Once you get to the point where the armor is so heavy that it needs to be a powered exoskeleton that can walk and move on its own, at this point not only have you eliminated the need for a human to be inside it, the biggest engineering challenge in designing it has become how to make this thing work without tearing apart the human body it's supposed to be protecting. If you feel it necessary to have human-shaped death machines, you're much better off from an engineering, economic and soldier safety point of view to leave the soldier out of it.

Once you get to a superscience level of technology in which the engineering becomes irrelevant, then perhaps there will be Iron Man type supersuits that literally turn someone into a superhero. But it's hard to visualize what ground combat would be like at this godlike level of technology, and whether it would be relevant at all.

[Grayhome]

Do the Loroi have an equivalent for the scientific method? How does their research process work?

[Arioch]

Do the Loroi have an equivalent for the scientific method? How does their research process work?

I don't imagine that it would be very much different from our process. I think technological progress tends to be slow in very conservative societies, especially when they have authoritarian governments. The juice that drives the recent rapid progress in our modern Western culture is the free market coupled with an open, democratic society; technological innovation has become a driver of our economy and our lifestyles; we have come to expect things to change. But it was not always thus, and my supposition is that it may be unusual among alien cultures.