The Loroi are Evil!

[cacambo43]

Rather than assuming that the Loroi are a monolithic entity who must be uniformly stupid and/or evil, consider these questions:

Tempo said that "unforseen events" prevented her from being present during Alex's interrogation, and took full responsibility for the consequences of her absence. But can you imagine any event that would keep the chief diplomatic officer (or any of her subordinates) from being present during the first contact interview with a new alien species, short of being actively prevented from doing so? Who aboard Tempest has the authority to exclude Tempo from such a meeting?

Why didn't Tempo visit Alex in his cell subsequent to his interrogation, and why did she have Alex come all the way to the bridge to talk to her? Who was conspicuously absent from the bridge when Alex arrived?

During Tempo's interview with Alex on the bridge, Stillstorm returns to the bridge, and Tempo interrupts Alex (who is in the process of trying to give her important location information) and bestows formal diplomatic status on him, in front of two foreign witnesses. Why would she do this? Does Stillstorm seem pleased about it?

As the battle is about to begin, Alex is dismissed from the bridge, but Tempo calls him back under the pretext of observing his funerary rituals. Why would she do this? Does Stillstorm seem pleased about that?

When Alex is dismissed for the second time, he is promptly thrown back in the brig. Do you really think that was an oversight? Do you think it's standard Loroi procedure to lock up diplomats? Under whose orders could such a thing even be considered?

Why did neither Tempo nor Beryl (nor anyone other than the guards) visit Alex in the week or so subsequent to the battle? When Alex asks her why, Beryl dodges the question and apologizes that she "was not able" to visit him earlier, and that she's full of questions for him. One might speculate that Tempo also had a few questions for him. What or who could have prevented them from visiting him?

I think I (we) know, but

WE'D MUCH RATHER HAVE YOU TELL US!



Merry Christmas.

CJSF

[NuclearIceCream]

Rather than assuming that the Loroi are a monolithic entity who must be uniformly stupid and/or evil, consider these questions:

Tempo said that "unforseen events" prevented her from being present during Alex's interrogation, and took full responsibility for the consequences of her absence. But can you imagine any event that would keep the chief diplomatic officer (or any of her subordinates) from being present during the first contact interview with a new alien species, short of being actively prevented from doing so? Who aboard Tempest has the authority to exclude Tempo from such a meeting?

Why didn't Tempo visit Alex in his cell subsequent to his interrogation, and why did she have Alex come all the way to the bridge to talk to her? Who was conspicuously absent from the bridge when Alex arrived?

During Tempo's interview with Alex on the bridge, Stillstorm returns to the bridge, and Tempo interrupts Alex (who is in the process of trying to give her important location information) and bestows formal diplomatic status on him, in front of two foreign witnesses. Why would she do this? Does Stillstorm seem pleased about it?

As the battle is about to begin, Alex is dismissed from the bridge, but Tempo calls him back under the pretext of observing his funerary rituals. Why would she do this? Does Stillstorm seem pleased about that?

When Alex is dismissed for the second time, he is promptly thrown back in the brig. Do you really think that was an oversight? Do you think it's standard Loroi procedure to lock up diplomats? Under whose orders could such a thing even be considered?

Why did neither Tempo nor Beryl (nor anyone other than the guards) visit Alex in the week or so subsequent to the battle? When Alex asks her why, Beryl dodges the question and apologizes that she "was not able" to visit him earlier, and that she's full of questions for him. One might speculate that Tempo also had a few questions for him. What or who could have prevented them from visiting him?

Holy crap. You are the master of subtext. I had not thought this deeply about what went on in the comic. Now I have to reread the thing and JUST look for stuff like this. You need to figure out how to make real money out of this. Writing this good should not go unrewarded.

[Karst45]

Rather than assuming that the Loroi are a monolithic entity who must be uniformly stupid and/or evil, consider these questions:

Tempo said that "unforseen events" prevented her from being present during Alex's interrogation, and took full responsibility for the consequences of her absence. But can you imagine any event that would keep the chief diplomatic officer (or any of her subordinates) from being present during the first contact interview with a new alien species, short of being actively prevented from doing so? Who aboard Tempest has the authority to exclude Tempo from such a meeting?

Why didn't Tempo visit Alex in his cell subsequent to his interrogation, and why did she have Alex come all the way to the bridge to talk to her? Who was conspicuously absent from the bridge when Alex arrived?

During Tempo's interview with Alex on the bridge, Stillstorm returns to the bridge, and Tempo interrupts Alex (who is in the process of trying to give her important location information) and bestows formal diplomatic status on him, in front of two foreign witnesses. Why would she do this? Does Stillstorm seem pleased about it?

As the battle is about to begin, Alex is dismissed from the bridge, but Tempo calls him back under the pretext of observing his funerary rituals. Why would she do this? Does Stillstorm seem pleased about that?

When Alex is dismissed for the second time, he is promptly thrown back in the brig. Do you really think that was an oversight? Do you think it's standard Loroi procedure to lock up diplomats? Under whose orders could such a thing even be considered?

Why did neither Tempo nor Beryl (nor anyone other than the guards) visit Alex in the week or so subsequent to the battle? When Alex asks her why, Beryl dodges the question and apologizes that she "was not able" to visit him earlier, and that she's full of questions for him. One might speculate that Tempo also had a few questions for him. What or who could have prevented them from visiting him?

To all those question i say: the magician?

[Grayhome]

Rather than assuming that the Loroi are a monolithic entity who must be uniformly stupid and/or evil, consider these questions:

Tempo said that "unforseen events" prevented her from being present during Alex's interrogation, and took full responsibility for the consequences of her absence. But can you imagine any event that would keep the chief diplomatic officer (or any of her subordinates) from being present during the first contact interview with a new alien species, short of being actively prevented from doing so? Who aboard Tempest has the authority to exclude Tempo from such a meeting?

Why didn't Tempo visit Alex in his cell subsequent to his interrogation, and why did she have Alex come all the way to the bridge to talk to her? Who was conspicuously absent from the bridge when Alex arrived?

During Tempo's interview with Alex on the bridge, Stillstorm returns to the bridge, and Tempo interrupts Alex (who is in the process of trying to give her important location information) and bestows formal diplomatic status on him, in front of two foreign witnesses. Why would she do this? Does Stillstorm seem pleased about it?

As the battle is about to begin, Alex is dismissed from the bridge, but Tempo calls him back under the pretext of observing his funerary rituals. Why would she do this? Does Stillstorm seem pleased about that?

When Alex is dismissed for the second time, he is promptly thrown back in the brig. Do you really think that was an oversight? Do you think it's standard Loroi procedure to lock up diplomats? Under whose orders could such a thing even be considered?

Why did neither Tempo nor Beryl (nor anyone other than the guards) visit Alex in the week or so subsequent to the battle? When Alex asks her why, Beryl dodges the question and apologizes that she "was not able" to visit him earlier, and that she's full of questions for him. One might speculate that Tempo also had a few questions for him. What or who could have prevented them from visiting him?

I noticed all of these things, and simply assumed that Tempo was deliberately (and rather obviously) sabotaging first contact with humanity so as to give Emperor Greywind an excuse to dispose of Stillstorm, who has been noted as being critical of Emperor's Greywind's regime.

In the aftermath of Commander Stillstorm's demotion/execution another, presumably more loyal officer would take command of the former Commander Stillstorm's fleet. Perhaps even (I dare suggest) Ashrain, the up and coming officer who just happens to be a relative to the current Emperor.

[NuclearIceCream]

I noticed all of these things, and simply assumed that Tempo was deliberately (and rather obviously) sabotaging first contact with humanity so as to give Emperor Greywind an excuse to dispose of Stillstorm, who has been noted as being critical of Emperor's Greywind's regime.

In the aftermath of Commander Stillstorm's demotion/execution another, presumably more loyal officer would take command of the former Commander Stillstorm's fleet. Perhaps even (I dare suggest) Ashrain, the up and coming officer who just happens to be a relative to the current Emperor.

Didn't Ashrain originally get assigned to a reserve fleet or something safely behind the lines but requested to get assigned to a more dangerous posting? I could be miss remembering, but if I'm not then your theory has a hole. Also, I would assume that if both Stillstorm and Tempo were trying to screw with Alex then there would be a more uniform "treat the alien badly" sort of thing going on. But It doesn't look like Beryl got that memo.

I think we can safely say that Stillstorm doesn't like Alex, but I don't think we have enough information about Tempo or her job to assume she would risk botching a first contact to remove an unruly fleet commander that has for all intents and purposes been politically neutralized because of her posting.

[cacambo43]

I noticed all of these things, and simply assumed that Tempo was deliberately (and rather obviously) sabotaging first contact with humanity so as to give Emperor Greywind an excuse to dispose of Stillstorm, who has been noted as being critical of Emperor's Greywind's regime.

In the aftermath of Commander Stillstorm's demotion/execution another, presumably more loyal officer would take command of the former Commander Stillstorm's fleet. Perhaps even (I dare suggest) Ashrain, the up and coming officer who just happens to be a relative to the current Emperor.

None of that makes any sense with a telepathic race that cannot lie. I don't think that style of political intrigue and deceit can work with the Loroi.

CJSF

[Fotiadis_110]

You mistake 'cannot lie' for 'Difficult to conceal' Loroi can lie to each other, but it requires hiding their minds to do so, something that most Loroi such as Stillstorm distrust, and so given that they cannot see Alex's mind, it isn't hard to believe they think he has much to conceal.

I presume Stillstorm is still extremely suspicious of a creature that she cannot properly read, even through direct contact, the only creation that could achieve that would be robotic in their experience.

So locking up a likely spy and keeping it out of trouble, yet conferring the appropriate rank befitting of the position they should have is the most she would permit. I suspect honestly she'd happily send him to a military lab for experimentation and destruction after locating the source of the apparent 'home-world' where they could deliver a scout/diplomatic vessel, all they'd have to say is they made contact but the ambassador didn't make it.

On the other hand, you could also look at him as a diplomatic prisoner, too valuable alive to dispose of, but at the same time, too risky to give access to any further details. It obviously infuriated Stillstorm that he was permitted a seat on the bridge during the battle.

Finally there is a final consideration, it is the Emperors choice on what stance the Loroi should take against this unknown race, not that of a forward commander, seeking to increase their own prestege, they don't need another war started against an unknown race who may or may not be far superior to themselves. For a race stretched so far to the edge they are forced to perform raiding missions to interfere with their opponents hostile plans, nor would they possibly let the generally Xenophobic tendencies of their soldiers, individuals trained to kill the Xenos filth arrayed against them, to colour their view on the Loroi in general, thus securing, containing and generally isolating the Diplomat till they can be passed into the Emperors' hands for her verdict on the possible threat posed by this unknown, uncertain group that may be potential allies, foreign spies and saboteurs, or a handicap to the Loroi unions continued existence. I imagine if they could read him they'd have let Beryl and Fireblade along with the guards spend some 'quality' time together to glean as much information from him as possible without causing him any physical harm.

At the present time, I would consider an entity such as him as a ticking time bomb, who could be used to your advantage, or represent the future downfall of your race, thus best left for someone with more influence and power to actually make the decision... And given Stillstorms disapproval of the Emperors decisions thus far, She'd much rather be given the choice to dispose of this potential threat rather than let it potentially fester and cause them problems.

Which would make it a very good thing for Alex that Tempo has as much influence as she does.

I also think Tempo focuses on keeping Stillstorm in check, and out of harms way, being vastly more valuable as a living commander than a dead hunk of meat, preventing her from throwing her and her forces lives away in fruitless battle, or from trying to stir up the pot Politically among the union and making herself more of a liability than an asset to the Loroi union. I don't envy her job.
Thus I believe she is more of a containing factor on Stillstorm, rather than some kind of political spy that Stillstorm would have 'accidentally' had in a shuttle during an unexpected attack with the Umiak. Political opponents can be removed carefully with ease, just trump up some charges of insubordination or whatever and they are gone from your command chain, but I'd like to believe that the Emperor is much more wise than that, and to use the right tool for the jobs that need doing. If the war ended tomorrow however, she may have her worth and potential influence re-evaluated and removed from the front if it served the Union.

[sunphoenix]

And as an aside to Fotiadis_110's comments... I don't even think Stillstorm is the big badguy here either! She is a commander of a small fleet against overwhelming odds that show no sign of relenting in a war for the very existence of not just her Race... but the allied races with the Loroi. I think were a human commander in a similar situation.. their reaction would not have been much different.

Stillstorm is doing everything she can... NOT to conquer more pieces of known space for the Loroi but to protect her race and countless allied races against a foe that enslaves and destroys worlds to strip them of their resources with no concern of preserving the biosphere for continued habitation... even in their own benefit!

The Umiak enslave all they meet so they can strip-mine their worlds for resources and force them to serve their expansionist policies only to pollute and devour everything in their path. It is likely the Umiak's policies which have forced the Loroi to adopt the 'No Neutral Civilizations' as if they don't... WHEN the Umiak discover any unalinged race they enslave them to feed the Umiak war-machine and expansion!

Stillstorm being overly cautions to make sure her guardianship of the Loroi worlds and allied Races is not endangered is NOT uneasonable in the circumstances... and I think if we honestly look at it... a human commander would have been just as suspicious and direct with an unknown alien race in a similar circumstance!

[TrashMan]

You have a pretty negative view of the Umiak. They seemed perfectly happy with laving other races alone before the Loroi went "Total war, no neutrality!"


Also, Christmas and no Christmas poster/pin-up?

son, I am dissapoint!

[Arioch]

It was my intention to do one, but it's been a very rough past couple of weeks.

[sunphoenix]

You have a pretty negative view of the Umiak. They seemed perfectly happy with laving other races alone before the Loroi went "Total war, no neutrality!"

What Comic are you reading?

This is straight out of the Insider -
"The one common theme among them is that the Umiak impose oppressively burdensome taxation in the form of resource extraction or production quotas that are at the extreme limit of what is physically possible to produce, and seemingly without regard to environmental or social impact."

And...

"As both empires continued to expand, the growing friction between them reached a flash point in the border system of Ukko on 10 August 2135. Loroi and Umiak warships exchanged fire, though each side tells a version of the incident that differs in who initiated the combat. What is not in dispute is that the Umiak response was immediate, massive, and had clearly been prepared in advance. Numerous Umiak fleets attacked Loroi space from all along the Tenuki border. The scale of the invasion was unprecedented; it was as if the Umiak had begun preparing for war at the very moment of first contact with the Loroi."

That is not to say that the Loroi were innocent... but in war many unfortunate choices present themselves and not always is the best of evils apparent during a crisis...

"Fourth Emperor Greywind also announced a new anti-neutrality doctrine, aimed directly at the neighboring Tithric, who at best were unable to prevent Umiak sorties through their neutral territory, and at worst may have been actively assisting them. Greywind sent Admiral Sunfall, hero of the Golim-Tinza battles, to force the Tithric to choose sides. While the Tithric government delayed, Sunfall began conducting strikes into Tithric territory to interdict Umiak forces, but also to destroy depots that Sunfall claimed were being used to refuel Umiak raiders. Tithric public outrage over these raids resulted in the rise of a pro-Umiak government to power, and the Tithric formally sided with the Umiak in mid-2141. In a battle that lasted most of that year, Sunfall shattered the combined Umiak and Tithric forces and (with Imperial consent) laid waste to the Tithric planets, rendering them unusable to the Umiak, and annihilating the vast majority of the Tithric population. With the pressure on Laget relieved, the Loroi celebrated this event as a critical victory, but the genocide came as a shock to the other races, including many Loroi allies. The Umiak shortly thereafter declared a similar doctrine refusing to recognize the rights of neutrality, and both sides would use this policy in the coming years as pretext for action against and annexation of the remaining non-aligned nations."

The decision to employ the "No Neutrality" rule was not one made of arrogance ..but of desperation for the Loroi had lost their sector Capital on Seren and the Umiak were STILL not stopping clearly they meant to wipe the Loroi out!

In the same situation.. I don't think Humanity would have made any different a choice.

[Arioch]

Like the Loroi, the Umiak were annexing their neighbors long before the current war and the joint anti-neutrality declarations. They just had different justifications for doing so.

[RedDwarfIV]

Well, we might have made a different choice. It may not have been obvious to the Loroi, it'd be pretty obvious to us that if you send warships into neutral territory, then blow their fuel supplies up, that's going to get them pretty pissed at you. As exemplified by the Tithric joining the Umiak side.

At the very least we'd avoid such a thing on pragmatic grounds. A neutral party is less dangerous to you than an enemy.

[discord]

red: and a neutral party passively(or maybe not so passively) assisting your enemy can in fact be more dangerous than an active enemy.

[Arioch]

And more to the point: a neutral party who is actively or passively assisting the enemy is not actually a neutral party.

Well, we might have made a different choice. It may not have been obvious to the Loroi, it'd be pretty obvious to us that if you send warships into neutral territory, then blow their fuel supplies up, that's going to get them pretty pissed at you. As exemplified by the Tithric joining the Umiak side.

At the very least we'd avoid such a thing on pragmatic grounds. A neutral party is less dangerous to you than an enemy.

A neutral party is either unable or unwilling to stop enemy forces striking through their territory. These strikes are fatally weakening your defensive line; if they continue, you will probably lose the war. What is your pragmatic solution?

[Mackus]

I guess a neutral side strong enough would be able to secure their borders, and enforce their neutrality.
Its just that no neutral power in the sector is strong enough to do so.
Humanity might be able to pull it off for a while (fairly long one, in fact), because they are so remote, but joining future victors would be more profitable.

[RedDwarfIV]

And more to the point: a neutral party who is actively or passively assisting the enemy is not actually a neutral party.

Well, we might have made a different choice. It may not have been obvious to the Loroi, it'd be pretty obvious to us that if you send warships into neutral territory, then blow their fuel supplies up, that's going to get them pretty pissed at you. As exemplified by the Tithric joining the Umiak side.

At the very least we'd avoid such a thing on pragmatic grounds. A neutral party is less dangerous to you than an enemy.

A neutral party is either unable or unwilling to stop enemy forces striking through their territory. These strikes are fatally weakening your defensive line; if they continue, you will probably lose the war. What is your pragmatic solution?

Fair enough.

Though you'd need to be sure they were actually assisting the enemy. If they weren't, you'd have the opportunity to ask them for free reign to keep Umiak warships out of their territory. They're still neutral, but they get to say to their people 'we're letting the Loroi in', hopefully keeping pro-Umiak supporters at bay, and the Loroi seem reasonable for exercising restraint.

If they are assisting the enemy, then you can get proof. If you can get that, you can either wave it in their public's faces (which might rally the pro-Loroi supporters) or you'd have a definite reason to declare war on them.

It's a tough situation though, so I can see why they'd just declare war anyway. But genocide? There are definitely alternatives to that.



On the other hand, I imagine humanity would probably handle one aspect of first contact in the same way the Umiak evidently did - start building a warfleet as soon as they're discovered. Out of interest, why would (what Beryl describes as) a warrior species not do that too?

[Arioch]

The Loroi were not very concerned about the Tithric's own forces, but the Umiak sorties through Tithric territory were a serious problem; they were coming at the extreme right flank of the Loroi line, stretching already thin forces even thinner, and since they were coming through neutral territory, the Loroi could not interdict them without violating Tithric territory. And so Umiak assault forces were striking populated Loroi territory at full strength, dangerously close to breakout into the Loroi home sector. This was in 2140, at the lowest point of the war for the Loroi; their Emperor had just been killed in action, and they were near to complete collapse.

The Tithric government claimed that the Umiak were conducting these sorties without their permission, and that the Tithric were entreating the Umiak to stop. Admiral Sunfall was sent with a show of force and a threat: either prevent these sorties, or we will prevent them. In the best case scenario, this move might scare the Tithric into complying with their claim of neutrality, but even the worst case scenario, outright war with the Tithric was preferable to the status quo; the Loroi had very little to lose by getting aggressive. The Tithric government begged for more time to resolve the situation, but more Umiak assault forces were detected in transit through Tithric territory, and so Sunfall breached Tithric borders to interdict them. The Tithric government protested, but there was not much they could say about the matter, since the Umiak fleets were also in obvious violation of neutrality. However, in the process of these interdictions, Sunfall received reports that the Umiak raiders were refueling at Tithric ports. When confronted with this information, the Tithric government claimed to have no knowledge of this, and asserted that if some Tithric were aiding the Umiak, it was without the consent of the government and was in violation of Tithric law. Since this was a clear violation of neutrality and an act of war, Sunfall attacked and destroyed the refueling stations in question, notifying the Tithric government that this was an act against rogue outlaws and not the Tithric nation.

At this point, of course, the result was inevitable. The Tithric government, realizing that declaring war on the Loroi would be suicide, vehemently protested Loroi actions but attempted to keep the peace, but as Umiak sorties and Loroi interdictions continued, the Tithric population became outraged at government inaction in the face of mounting civilian casualties at Loroi hands, and the government was replaced with a pro-Umiak faction, and formally sided with the Umiak. Though the Umiak moved in fleets to help secure the remaining bases, they were not sufficient to prevent Sunfall's hit and run attacks from eventually devastating the Tithric planets and infrastructure. Without bases to sustain them, the remaining Umiak forces withdrew.

If the Loroi had spared the Tithric population, they would simply have rebuilt the bases, and the raids would have continued. Invading and occupying Tithric territory was not really an option; the Loroi really couldn't spare the resources at that time.

The Tithric had been placed in an impossible position... but who was it who really placed them there?

On the other hand, I imagine humanity would probably handle one aspect of first contact in the same way the Umiak evidently did - start building a warfleet as soon as they're discovered. Out of interest, why would (what Beryl describes as) a warrior species not do that too?

The Loroi already had a substantial military fleet, which they thought was sufficient to deter aggression. They underestimated the size and power of the Umiak empire (most of which they still have little direct knowledge of) and misjudged the aggressiveness and paranoia of the Umiak themselves. At this point the Loroi had become overconfident and complacent; they hadn't fought an alien war for more than 500 years, and were simply used to being top dogs.

[Nemo]

It's a tough situation though, so I can see why they'd just declare war anyway. But genocide? There are definitely alternatives to that.

There are precisely two alternatives to that. Ceding the territory and in so doing lose the war, or turning the sortie into an all out invasion and occupation of hostile territory. This would expand the frontal area to defend and drag additional resources into a police action while providing no resources or benefit to aid in the war effort. Thus the options become lose the war one of two different ways or deny the area and its resources to the enemy and clear the space in a scorched earth action so that far sensing would be effective for defense.


We can paint with broad strokes and say the entire people should not suffer for the misdeeds of others, even a majority. Even Sodom and Gomorrah would have been spared for the sake of 10 righteous people, right? Sadly that is not always feasible.

Out of interest, why would (what Beryl describes as) a warrior species not do that too?

Taking a stab, cultural blind spot and lack of manufacturing base. The Loroi seem to be inherently prideful and disdain dishonesty. They lack the manufacturing base to keep up with the Umiak while on a full war footing. Why would they shift into full war time manufacturing in a time of peace without realizing the scope of the enemy threat? I have no doubt additional forces would have been called up, but how do you gauge the proper level of response?

I also doubt human civilians would accept war time full mobilization at first contact. Rationing, conscription? Revolution is more likely.




Aaaand sniped by the man.

[Senanthes]

I, for one, appreciate the fact that nobody is the good guy in the war. I get tired of easy characterizations very fast. It's too easy to fall into classic good guy/bad guy thinking, merely by picking the more "appealing" side at a glance, in many instances, which white-washes the nuances in play in such a scenario.

Personally, I get the impression that the Loroi simply don't have a single damn left to give about what the intergalactic peanut gallery thinks when their survival is on the line, and act accordingly. That being the case, I'm gratified to see that they're even willing to consider diplomacy in any form, rather than simply taking the safe route and getting rid of a potential threat.

Consider it for a moment... If your country could be overrun tomorrow, and you and your neighbors all killed, would you care what an editorial from the other side of the planet says about the methods you've used to keep that from happening? Now stretch that out for two decades, and give it some thought.