The Loroi are Evil!

[Siber]

That's a good point Siber, though I doubt it's an oversight. Logic, and Arioch's previous post...

Yup. But I'm just saying that without that insight, or without Tempo there, I wouldn't be forced to assume malice, just a mix of callousness and ineptitude. With Tempo around, it becomes a lot more certain that it'd be deliberate.

[fredgiblet]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor

[sunphoenix]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor

LOL! 'There are none so cruel as those who act first and think second.'

[TrashMan]

The Umiak enslave all they meet so they can strip-mine their worlds for resources and force them to serve their expansionist policies only to pollute and devour everything in their path. It is likely the Umiak's policies which have forced the Loroi to adopt the 'No Neutral Civilizations' as if they don't... WHEN the Umiak discover any unalinged race they enslave them to feed the Umiak war-machine and expansion!

I don't recall the Umiak having a "no neutrality" policy. It was the Loroi that started that.
The Umiak are expansionist (like Loroi) and more industrial, but that they enslave all they meet?
I don't recall reading that about them.

Also, this isn't a war of total extermination - the UNION would cease to exist, but the Loroi as a species? Or others? I doubt that.

If both sides are doing the same thing, you cannot say the Loroi are not evil because "they were forced", while the Umiak are.

I don't believe, even for a second, that either side is so simple and on-dimensional.
The Loroi certain have the markings of a "good" side - physically attractive space elves, mostly female, loosing the war.
Umiak have the markings of the "evil" side - space bugs are not only repulsive visually, but they are almost always evil.

However, I don't think Arioch will go with something so simple. He has certainly proven he has the writing skill to give more depth to both sides.

[dragoongfa]

The Umiak have a non neutrality policy as well and they do enslave all weaker species in their domain, turning their planets into industrial wastelands and taxing them to the point of extinction. The Orgus refugees that reached Earth attested to this.

http://well-of-souls.com/outsider/hierarchy_races.html

Considering what happened at the Loroi population of Seren, the war should be considered a war of extermination.

http://well-of-souls.com/outsider/forum ... story.html

[sunphoenix]

Specifically...

The Umiak have a non neutrality policy as well and they do enslave all weaker species in their domain, turning their planets into industrial wastelands and taxing them to the point of extinction. The Orgus refugees that reached Earth attested to this.

http://well-of-souls.com/outsider/hierarchy_races.html

The Umiak government is deeply bureaucratic and decentralized, and is socialist/communal, especially at the lower levels. The Umiak seem to have a pragmatic view toward their alien client states, in the sense that each relationship appears to be unique, based on the needs of the moment; some clients are virtually enslaved, while others retain near-full autonomy and even their own military fleets. The one common theme among them is that the Umiak impose oppressively burdensome taxation in the form of resource extraction or production quotas that are at the extreme limit of what is physically possible to produce, and seemingly without regard to environmental or social impact.

Considering what happened at the Loroi population of Seren, the war should be considered a war of extermination.

http://well-of-souls.com/outsider/forum ... story.html

As the Loroi recaptured populated systems that had been previously lost to the Umiak, the worst of Loroi fears over the fates of those who had fallen under Umiak occupation were confirmed. For years, fierce and effective Loroi resistance had prevented the Umiak from making much use of the captured worlds; Teidar and Mizol could be devastating guerrilla fighters, and were nearly impossible to identify among the civilian Loroi population. After a few years of unsuccessful occupation, the Umiak concluded that pacification of the Loroi was impossible, and simply began extermination of the captive Loroi populations. Of the estimated 50 million civilian Loroi that had been trapped on Seren when it was lost to the Umiak six years earlier, fewer than 600,000 still remained alive on the planet when it was recaptured in 2145. The story was the same on every recaptured Loroi colony.

Following the recapture of Seren, thereafter the Loroi showed no mercy to any Umiak taken prisoner as the offensive pushed forward.

------

I'm not calling the Umiak "Evil" or for that matter repulsive. I think the Loroi and the Umiak are both mature cultures that at the time did not understand the motivations and thought processes of each other and came to blows over resources. Happens all the time in Earth cultures.. but I DO think someone 'outside of the current picture' is manipulating situations to bring these two great cultures into conflict. I think the Loroi and the Umiak could learn much from each other. The Umiak learn tolerance and conservationism from the Loroi, and the Loroi could certainly learn humility in exchange!

[dragoongfa]

I'm not calling the Umiak "Evil" or for that matter repulsive. I think the Loroi and the Umiak are both mature cultures that at the time did not understand the motivations and thought processes of each other and came to blows over resources. Happens all the time in Earth cultures.. but I DO think someone 'outside of the current picture' is manipulating situations to bring these two great cultures into conflict. I think the Loroi and the Umiak could learn much from each other. The Umiak learn tolerance and conservationism from the Loroi, and the Loroi could certainly learn humility in exchange!

I wouldn't call either the Loroi or Umiak mature, in the sense of non destructiveness at least, hell the way the Terran Colonial Authority manages to function while juggling the hundreds of human nations is far more mature than what the Loroi and Umiak are doing with their client species. Depending on how peaceful things have remained on Earth humanity may as well be the most peaceful and least destructive race out of all three and that's coming from someone who ascribes by the 'Humanity Fuck Yeah' trope.

First let's look at the Loroi:

Humans would have reacted differently to the Tithric situation, still violently sure but humanity wouldn't have exterminated a race that easily. From a pragmatic perceptive it would be far better to destroy all Tithric spaceports with proven Umiak shipping in them and 'confiscate' all Tithric goods that could be used to aid the Umiak, with a promise to repay the Tithric later. Of course this would stop if the Tithric would say that they are unable to 'police' their territory and thus they wouldn't 'interfere' with any and all fighting that happens in their territory unless their habitats were in peril.

The Charred steppes are a coin toss on terms of brutality, since both sides were responsible even if the Loroi started it, it's a 'smart' move in times of war but the destruction of so much life would never sit well with humans.

Beyond that the Loroi are very human like in their relations with their client races, nothing out of the ordinary and they act just like a human superpower does in its deals with weaker allies.

The Umiak on the other hand.

I don't consider them Sauron level of evil but they are certainly on the blacker side of grey in the morality compass. The enslavement and overtaxation of their 'allies' is simply death by strangulation, while the Loroi make sure to keep everyone below them they don't actually destroy their future prospects. What the Umiak are doing is just pillaging and destroying the future of those allies.

The way I see them they have a complete lack of empathy in regards to non Umiak species, imposing as much taxation as they can get not caring what the cost is for those that foot the bill.

Out of everyone involved the best choice would be for humanity to ally with the 3rd hidden party because the Loroi are barely restrained psychopaths and the Umiak are just uncaring taxmen.

[Zakharra]

Specifically...

The Umiak have a non neutrality policy as well and they do enslave all weaker species in their domain, turning their planets into industrial wastelands and taxing them to the point of extinction. The Orgus refugees that reached Earth attested to this.

http://well-of-souls.com/outsider/hierarchy_races.html

The Umiak government is deeply bureaucratic and decentralized, and is socialist/communal, especially at the lower levels. The Umiak seem to have a pragmatic view toward their alien client states, in the sense that each relationship appears to be unique, based on the needs of the moment; some clients are virtually enslaved, while others retain near-full autonomy and even their own military fleets. The one common theme among them is that the Umiak impose oppressively burdensome taxation in the form of resource extraction or production quotas that are at the extreme limit of what is physically possible to produce, and seemingly without regard to environmental or social impact.

Considering what happened at the Loroi population of Seren, the war should be considered a war of extermination.

http://well-of-souls.com/outsider/forum ... story.html

As the Loroi recaptured populated systems that had been previously lost to the Umiak, the worst of Loroi fears over the fates of those who had fallen under Umiak occupation were confirmed. For years, fierce and effective Loroi resistance had prevented the Umiak from making much use of the captured worlds; Teidar and Mizol could be devastating guerrilla fighters, and were nearly impossible to identify among the civilian Loroi population. After a few years of unsuccessful occupation, the Umiak concluded that pacification of the Loroi was impossible, and simply began extermination of the captive Loroi populations. Of the estimated 50 million civilian Loroi that had been trapped on Seren when it was lost to the Umiak six years earlier, fewer than 600,000 still remained alive on the planet when it was recaptured in 2145. The story was the same on every recaptured Loroi colony.

Following the recapture of Seren, thereafter the Loroi showed no mercy to any Umiak taken prisoner as the offensive pushed forward.

------

I'm not calling the Umiak "Evil" or for that matter repulsive. I think the Loroi and the Umiak are both mature cultures that at the time did not understand the motivations and thought processes of each other and came to blows over resources. Happens all the time in Earth cultures.. but I DO think someone 'outside of the current picture' is manipulating situations to bring these two great cultures into conflict. I think the Loroi and the Umiak could learn much from each other. The Umiak learn tolerance and conservationism from the Loroi, and the Loroi could certainly learn humility in exchange!

Le gasp! O.O It's the Historians!

*yanks off tinfoil hat* Seriously though that is a plausible theory, but only plausible to a degree. The Loroi and Umiak cultures are too different and would have come into conflict sooner than later. it doesn't help that the Umiak pretty much see every other intelligent species as a rival to be subjected and brought under control. The information on the Umiak confirms that. They put everyone under their thumb. it's true that some have near full autonomy on their own internal governance, but only as long as they meet the production quotas. It's clear the Umiak don't give a damn if an environment is destroyed in the process as long as the resource extraction/production quotas are maintained. Any system that fails that, I think would soon see a Umiak fleet moving in to force the quotas to be met by any means necessary.

The Loroi might have been willing to leave the Umiak alone, but I don;t think the Umiak could ever leave anyone else alone. All will be under their sway or be dead.

[RedDwarfIV]

Umiak have the markings of the "evil" side - space bugs are not only repulsive visually, but they are almost always evil.

That was one of the interesting things about the Dancers from The Lost Fleet. Physically repulsive to humans (described as being 'like a spider mated with a wolf'), and yet they had an understanding of physical beauty, would never choose to start a war, and were friendly towards humanity.

Meanwhile, the Kicks (long for KC, which is short for 'Killer Cows') which essentially looked like cute little teddy bears with cow muzzles, were herd-animal herbivores... and were psychotically xenocidal. They crush all other life besides that which they keep as pets or grow for food, and breed until their population on a planet nears (I think) 50 billion. Their only form of entertainment is watching an army of themselves with shields and spears driving back and killing huge creatures and enemies.

Frankly, even having the Umiak not be a horde of unthinking locusts is subversive given the normal role of insectoids in sci-fi.

[TrashMan]

True, but treating even friends like dirt is the hallmark of evil. That is why I'm concerned with the Umiak.


I'm curious, if humans were to negotiate with Umiak, what kind of a deal could they pull off?
Could they avoid the harsh quotas?
Arioch?

[Zakharra]

True, but treating even friends like dirt is the hallmark of evil. That is why I'm concerned with the Umiak.


I'm curious, if humans were to negotiate with Umiak, what kind of a deal could they pull off?
Could they avoid the harsh quotas?
Arioch?

I'd say the Umiak would send in several fleets to turn the human worlds into fleet bases and resource extraction centers that basically suck the resources out of our worlds and systems. ANY deal with the Umiak is a bad one since any deal they make is solely for the Umiak's benefit. Everything is geared to fund and fuel the Umiak and their war machine. Remember even the nations and systems that have near full autonomy have ruinous resource extraction and production quotas. The Umiak don't care about environmental damage. That's not even on their radar screen of hazards, as long as they get the resources they want and production they want, they are happy little worker bees.

[Arent]

Specifically...

The Umiak have a non neutrality policy as well and they do enslave all weaker species in their domain, turning their planets into industrial wastelands and taxing them to the point of extinction. The Orgus refugees that reached Earth attested to this.

it's true that some have near full autonomy on their own internal governance, but only as long as they meet the production quotas. It's clear the Umiak don't give a damn if an environment is destroyed in the process as long as the resource extraction/production quotas are maintained.

You guys do notice that taxation/production quotas that 'turn planets into industrial wasteland' and 'tax them to the point of extinction' is an extremely efficient way to exterminate a species? The Umiak do exterminate the subjugated species, they just do it slowly. They come across as extremely xenophobic Klackons that have no use for species that cannot adapt to their unified hive society.

[discord]

Guys, I believe you are over thinking Umiak policy a bit.
On the lower levels they treat everyone as if they were Umiak(not very well at all.) and on the higher levels they simply do not allow non Umiak(so you have mostly control over ONE system? big whoppity do!) due to mostly reasonable trust issues would be my guess.

Remember the fact that aliens are alien, Loroi however are closely enough related to humans that they are not alien enough(uncanny valley) and we apply human standards on non humans.
Not that it's very evil even by human standards, Umiak on earth? Also known as the peoples republic of china, Loroi? pretty much any major nation involved in WW2, but the closest likeness would probably be the Japanese due to warrior mentality....although the french for sheer bloody never give up might be close too without the over abundance of atrocities.

[NuclearIceCream]

although the french for sheer bloody never give up might be close too without the over abundance of atrocities.

French are known for never giving up?

[sunphoenix]

Well my approach to the Umiak is that I hope they are intelligent enough.. they certainly seem logical enough, that if someone managed to stop them cold and make it clear they could not win a war of attrition but only face total annihilation if they continued their aggressive stance toward galactic expansionism and whole-sale environmental destruction wherever they colonized; and ONLY by changing how they approach and deal with the other sentient races of the galaxy in a more cooperative and peaceful dialogue... with much less biosphere destruction would they survive and prosper! Could the Umiak change for the better, if they had no other logical choice?

I'm hoping they could.

Perhaps the only reason WHY the Umiak have continued to operate this way is because they have never had their "noses bloodied" enough by someone to make them stop and reconsider their policies?

What is the truism.. already stated previously? "Be careful not to attribute maliciousness... where ignorance and incompetance are just as likely?"

[Arioch]

On the lower levels they treat everyone as if they were Umiak(not very well at all.) and on the higher levels they simply do not allow non Umiak(so you have mostly control over ONE system? big whoppity do!) due to mostly reasonable trust issues would be my guess.

This is an important thing to consider in the Umiak treatment of their alien subjects; to compare it to the treatment of their own citizens. This is a race that uses its own people as cannon fodder and who are willing to literally work until they drop, and to run their own infrastructure at unsustainable levels (and who by all accounts ruined their own homeworld in this manner). Admittedly this is driven by their own paranoid monomania and need for security at all costs, but from the Umiak point of view, they are not asking anything of their subjects that they do not ask of their own people times ten. The Umiak know that their system is unsustainable, but "it's just until we can make our territory secure."

Which of course is not a practical possibility; there will always be some new threat, real or perceived. But I think you'd have a tough time convincing the Umiak of that.

Remember the fact that aliens are alien, Loroi however are closely enough related to humans that they are not alien enough(uncanny valley) and we apply human standards on non humans.

I think this is a good point, and I've had a similar observation: because the Loroi are more like us, we tend to judge them more harshly by our standards, whereas the more alien Umiak seem to be given more latitude. Many people seem suspicious of Loroi motives, but more willing to take the Umiak at face value. When I was writing the scene in which Stillstorm and Kikitik-27 interact, I was concerned that readers would find Kikitik's offer totally unbelievable; I was a bit surprised when the majority of those who commented seemed to believe Kikitik implicitly, some even to the point of judging Stillstorm to be "Stupid Evil" for not promptly surrendering to her mortal enemy based on his word alone.

I'm curious, if humans were to negotiate with Umiak, what kind of a deal could they pull off? Could they avoid the harsh quotas?

I'm afraid there's no way I can answer that question.

[cacambo43]

I'm afraid there's no way I can answer that question.

No, no! Please do. Preferably in a multi-chapter, full color web comic!

CJSF

[RedDwarfIV]

although the french for sheer bloody never give up might be close too without the over abundance of atrocities.

French are known for never giving up?

They may have a reputation for surrendering, but that doesn't mean it's well deserved.

I was concerned that readers would find Kikitik's offer totally unbelievable; I was a bit surprised when the majority of those who commented seemed to believe Kikitik implicitly, some even to the point of judging Stillstorm to be "Stupid Evil" for not promptly surrendering to her mortal enemy based on his word alone.

It confuses me, too. Preventing your enemy getting their hands (or claws?) on your or a friend's technology is incredibly important in war. In many sci-fi settings, it's why spacecraft have self-destruct devices (aside from just generally stopping people taking over a ship by boarding action.) Letting the Umiak get a good look at a potential ally's technology wouldn't have been an option, because it would allow the Umiak to develop technologies, strategies and tactics best suited to dealing with Terran spacecraft.

Protecting your technological edge (or just preventing the enemy gaining intel on you and your allies) is the sort of thing a lot of people could get sacrificed for, because if you lose that technological edge or allow the enemy to develop those countermeasures, you'll lose a lot more people in the long run.


So blowing up the Bellarmine and getting the hell out of Naam would be the most sensible option available.

[icekatze]

hi hi

I figured that the Umiak were playing Stillstorm, getting her to destroy the remains out of spite. The only thing that makes me think they were on the level is that I can't find any apparent advantage for them to have lied about their interest in the Bellarmine. (All that stuff about invading Loroi space, well, who knows about all that anyways.)

Edit: I suppose after analyzing the sensor data they got on the probing attack, the Umiak decided they wanted to destroy the remains without committing any more of their forces. Or if the Umiak already met another human scoutship, they will have just gotten sensor logs of the Loroi destroying a human vessel.

[discord]

icecream: the guy that surrendered france during ww2 was a good military commander that made the correct judgement 'this cant be won, if only they had given me this bloody position two-three weeks earlier then maybe, but now? nope we be screwed.' the soldiers.....holy shit the soldiers.

regarding the french soldiers evacuated during the miracle of dunkirk,
"The whole operation was very well-organized, and some were in Britain for less than twenty-four hours before returning by boat to Brest of Cherbourg where they were regrouped with the intention of continuing the fight against Germany. Having considered the organisational aspect of the operation, the study then moves on to the more personal considerations."
the surrender happens and those surrender monkey soldiers promptly turn guerrilla, the soldiers did not surrender.

it really is fascinating how the 'surrender monkey' meme has gotten so strong.