Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

[Bamax]

This ought to be fun... it 's aways funny when I find IRL weapon designs that if... actually working as good as claimed would rival or even make the Loroi and Umiak freak out.

Would the following weapon tend to do a lot of damage to Loroi and Umiak forces? Or do they have special armor that can take it?

Cliff notes: It can melt through steel a light second away... can do damage at still farther ranges but not as much as it is less focused.


Long notes: Read below. It is a long reply some user made to another in a discussion about lasers in space.

Ravening Beam Of Death: From project Rho website (from winchell chung).

The ever useful Atomic Rockets site has a great section on laser weaponry, but the conclusion is far different than what you seem to be implying. Rather than have a multitude of laser weapons or optical systems, the ultimate aim is to create a Ravening Beam of Death (RBoD) and attack targets from as great a distance as possible.

For practical reasons, this turns out to be one light second (just under the distance from the Earth to the Moon), since you can see the target, aim and make corrections in such a short time frame that the target cannot move an appreciable distance. The massive Free Electron Laser (or actually Xaser, since it is fired in the x-ray frequencies) near the end of the section can vaporize metal, ceramic and carbon in milliseconds at that range, and if you are on an unpowered orbit or on an asteroid, the beam is still lethal at a light minute and dangerous even a light hour away.

Let's take a 10 MW ERC pumped FEL at just above the lead K-edge. This particular wavelength is used because lead is pretty much the heaviest non-radioactive element you can get, and at just above the highest core level absorption for a material you can get total external reflection at grazing angles - so no absorption or heating of a lead grazing incidence mirror. We will use a 1 meter diameter mirror. The Pb K-edge x-ray transition radiates at 1.4E-11 m. This gives us a divergence angle of 1.4E-11 radians. At 1 light second, we get a spot size of 5 mm, and an intensity of 5E11 W/m2.

Looking at the NIST table of x-ray attenuation coefficients, and noting that 1.4E-11 m is a 88 keV photon, we find an attenuation coefficient of about 0.5 cm2/g for iron (we'll use this for steel), 0.15 cm2/g for graphite (we'll use this for high tech carbon materials) and 0.18 cm2/g for borosilicate glass (a very rough approximation for ceramics). Since graphite has a density of 1.7 g/cm3, we get a 1/e falloff distance (attenuation length) of 4 cm. Iron, with a density of 7.9 g/cm3, has an attenuation length of 0.25 cm. Glass, density 2.2 g/cm3, has an attenuation length of 2.5 cm.

At 1 light second, therefore, the beam is depositing 2E12 W/cm3 in iron at the surface and 7E11 W/cm3 at 0.25 cm depth; 1.2E11 W/cm3 in graphite at the surface and 5E10 W/cm3 at 4 cm depth; and 2E11 W/cm3 in glass at the surface and 7E10 W/cm3 at 2.5 cm depth. Using 6E4 J/cm3 to vaporize iron initially at 300 K, we find that iron flashes to vapor within a microsecond to a depth of 0.9 cm. The glass, assumed to take 4.5E4 J/cm3 to vaporize (roughly appropriate for quartz) will flash to vapor within a microsecond to a depth of 4 cm within a microsecond. Graphite, at 1E5 J/cm3 for vaporization, will flash to vapor to a depth of 0.7 cm within a microsecond (the laser performs better if we let it dwell on graphite for a bit longer, we get a vaporization depth of 10 cm after ten microseconds).

Net conclusion - ravening death beam at one light second.

Now lets look at one light minute. The beam is now 30 cm across. This is much deeper than the attenuation length in all cases, so we will just find the radiant intensity and the equilibrium black body temperature of that intensity. We have an area of 7E-2 m2, and an intensity of 1.4E8 W/m2. You need to reach 7000 K before the irradiated surface is radiating as much energy away as heat as it is receiving as coherent x-rays. The boiling point of iron is 3023 K, the boiling point of quartz is 2503 K, and the sublimation temperature of graphite is 3640 K. All of these will be vaporized long before they stop gaining heat. At this range, the iron is subject to 5.6E8 W/cm3 at the surface, the graphite to 3.3E7 W/cm3 at the surface, and the glass to 5.6E7 W/cm3 at the surface. Using the above values for energy of vaporization, we get about 0.1 milliseconds before the iron starts to vaporize, 0.8 milliseconds before the glass starts to vaporize, and 3 milliseconds before the graphite begins to vaporize (because of its long attenuation length, once it begins to sublimate, graphite sublimates rapidly to a deep depth, while you essentially have to remove the iron layer by layer).

Net conclusion - still a ravening death beam at one light minute.

What about at one light hour? The beam is 18 meters across. The equilibrium black body temperature is 900 K. This is well below the melting point of most structural materials. Ten megawatts, however, is a lot of ionizing radiation. Any unhardened vehicle will be radiation killed at these ranges.

Obviously, the ideas of "close, medium and far" ranges have very different meanings in a space war context. The only way to effectively deal with a weapon like that is to have several weapons of similar power in your constellation, or be prepared to fill the sky with tens of thousands of kinetic kill vehicles (referred to in Rocketpunk Manifesto as Soda Cans of Death or SCoDs). With an overwhelming number of targets, the individual laser will eventually not be able to track and kill every target, and of course other factors like the service cycle (how often you might have to stop and cool down the system), or the speed the laser mirror can swivel to track incoming targets reduces the absolute number of targets you can service even with a RBoD.

[Arioch]

1. Would it be uncommon for a particularly promising Listel to be promoted to a Torrai Sorimi to act as an adjutant/aide for a captain or commander?
2. What would be a more common choice for such personell?

Listel and Mizol Sorimi are uncommon but not unheard of. The more uncommon source would be Soroin. Being slated for the Sorimi track is usually a combination of having good administrative but not field combat aptitudes, and being particularly charismatic and/or well connected. But once you go up the administrative track, you pretty much have to stay there. Frontline warriors get pretty bent out of shape when placed under the command of someone who didn't come up through the fighting ranks.

What would be the career path here, Sadait, Manneil, then Sosareil? What would be her commanders corresponding rank? Would a Lashret need a Manneil?

Yes, that's the administrative track. Sorimi and Sadait are normally assistants to very high ranking admirals (O9 and higher). A Mazeit or Lashret will usually rely on her executive officer (Mallas) for that role. A Manneil is either assistant to O10 or higher, or a department head on her own. Sosareil is usually some kind of administrative department head.

What would happen if such a "pencil-pusher" were to be the highest ranking Torrai left in a given unit? Would she assume overall command or should such a task be given to the most senior/experienced captain?

Loroi chain of command is complicated, but it runs through the executive officer, operations chief and other fighting ranks before it would get to an administrative officer. Most of the administrative ranks are ashore rather than aboard ship. The exceptions would be sector flagships and the Imperial flagship.

Who is Stillstorms adjutant? Opal?

Soroin Mallas Rune-Laurel.

[Cthulhu]

Thanks, it seems I need to adjust my story a bit.

A slightly different question about the Saber class cruiser.
1. Is it still common and what about its (possible) numbers, in, let's say, a less important strike group on a secondary theatre? Would the admiralty dump all of them there or perhaps restrict it to 1-2?
2. Could it act as a command ship of a strike group in a pinch? Also, what would usually a command ship be, a Lone Fire, perhaps?
3. Does it have a secondary bridge? During combat, would such a bridge be manned right away and in full, or perhaps with a skeleton crew only?
4. What about its poor protection, does it have any special reason? Is it perhaps the usual story of trying to combine flying and swimming capabilites, aiming for a duck, but getting a platypus for the cost of a swan instead? I mean, a hybrid battlecruiser/carrier does sound strange. Whoever designed that should lay off on those Perrein 'shrooms.

[Arioch]

A slightly different question about the Saber class cruiser.
1. Is it still common and what about its (possible) numbers, in, let's say, a less important strike group on a secondary theatre? Would the admiralty dump all of them there or perhaps restrict it to 1-2?
2. Could it act as a command ship of a strike group in a pinch? Also, what would usually a command ship be, a Lone Fire, perhaps?
3. Does it have a secondary bridge? During combat, would such a bridge be manned right away and in full, or perhaps with a skeleton crew only?

There are a handful of Sabers left, mostly being used in the raider strike forces. It's a "command cruiser," which means it does have flag facilities. That's not usually a separate bridge, but rather a wing off the regular command center. In Tempest, it takes the form of those galleries looking out over the regular bridge from the back. But many Mazeit and Lashret act as captains in direct command of their ships, and so don't make much use of the flag facilities. So yes, it could be or become a leading ship in a strike fleet. The raider forces frequently take losses, and any ship may find itself in the lead (like Winter Tide in the SG51 van squadron). They also are frequently sent out "as is" without waiting for reinforcements when there are enemy inbound.

4. What about its poor protection, does it have any special reason? Is it perhaps the usual story of trying to combine flying and swimming capabilites, aiming for a duck, but getting a platypus for the cost of a swan instead? I mean, a hybrid battlecruiser/carrier does sound strange. Whoever designed that should lay off on those Perrein 'shrooms.

A number of the Semoset-era designs (Vortex, Starblade, Saber) sacrificed protection for speed and heavy armament. The first-generation versions of the pulse cannon and wave-loom were inefficient and required a lot of heavy infrastructure for power and cooling.

[orion1836]

Soroin Mallas Rune-Laurel.

We may not have heard from her yet, but until proven otherwise, I am calling her Commander Zero Chill. That is one intense stare.

[Cthulhu]

There are a handful of Sabers left, mostly being used in the raider strike forces. It's a "command cruiser," which means it does have flag facilities. That's not usually a separate bridge, but rather a wing off the regular command center. In Tempest, it takes the form of those galleries looking out over the regular bridge from the back. But many Mazeit and Lashret act as captains in direct command of their ships, and so don't make much use of the flag facilities. So yes, it could be or become a leading ship in a strike fleet. The raider forces frequently take losses, and any ship may find itself in the lead (like Winter Tide in the SG51 van squadron). They also are frequently sent out "as is" without waiting for reinforcements when there are enemy inbound.

No, I meant a secondary bridge in case the main one is rendered inoperable, not a separate war room for the admiral. Would a complete or maybe just a skeleton reserve crew man it only after a combat alarm, would there be some personell manning it at all times or would it only be activated after the main bridge is knocked out?
Picards Enterprise had a secondary bridge, for example, since it also doubled as a brdige for the combat section. Against all common sense It was not usually manned, mostly for plot reasons.

A number of the Semoset-era designs (Vortex, Starblade, Saber) sacrificed protection for speed and heavy armament. The first-generation versions of the pulse cannon and wave-loom were inefficient and required a lot of heavy infrastructure for power and cooling.

Got it, I simply thought that the weakness of the Saber was due to the hangar and its corresponding facilites. Cruisers, even battlecruisers, were never heavily armored, but they made up for it with a higher degree of compartmentalization while concentrating their armor in critical parts of the ship. A hangar big enough to warrant the ship to be called a carrier, even a hybrid one, would render such point moot. A ship trying to combine the role of a battlecruiser which would require a high level of endurance with the structural weakness of a hangar and its subsystems should've lead to a design that ultimately failed at both roles. The Loroi probably understood this, since no similar new ships are fielded now or does starship design follow different principles? Was that design decision perhas a political one, a remnant of the old "fighter doctrine"?

Anyway, thank you for your patience.
A last question, if a lower rank is promoted into the Torrai caste, would she need to head back home in order to attend some sort of a fleet academy? Perhaps separated by the administrative and the combat branch? Who would teach there if all the experienced Torrai are required on the front lines? Or could she assume her new role immidiately, especially in a strike group, dozen systems away from such facilities? Perhaps undergo some sort of an apprenticeship? Would a former Listel be an outrageous choice for the combat branch?

[Arioch]

No, I meant a secondary bridge in case the main one is rendered inoperable, not a separate war room for the admiral. Would a complete or maybe just a skeleton reserve crew man it only after a combat alarm, would there be some personell manning it at all times or would it only be activated after the main bridge is knocked out?
Picards Enterprise had a secondary bridge, for example, since it also doubled as a brdige for the combat section. Against all common sense It was not usually manned, mostly for plot reasons.

The ship can be operated from engineering or auxiliary control, but the bridge is located in the core of the ship, so it would be a rare occurrence that a ship lost its command center but was still able to fight.

The Loroi probably understood this, since no similar new ships are fielded now or does starship design follow different principles? Was that design decision perhas a political one, a remnant of the old "fighter doctrine"?

Yes.

Lack of compartmentalization in the hangar just means that the entire hangar can be taken out with one penetrating hit, but that's not necessarily an issue to the survival of a ship. A carrier can be as heavily armored as a battleship.

A last question, if a lower rank is promoted into the Torrai caste, would she need to head back home in order to attend some sort of a fleet academy? Perhaps separated by the administrative and the combat branch? Who would teach there if all the experienced Torrai are required on the front lines? Or could she assume her new role immidiately, especially in a strike group, dozen systems away from such facilities? Perhaps undergo some sort of an apprenticeship? Would a former Listel be an outrageous choice for the combat branch?

You can't be field-promoted to Torrai, as that involves a variety of supplementary education and ceremonial stuff. An officer can be promoted to Soroin Torret without the formalities of Torrai induction (like Nova of Winter Tide). An officer normally serves as a second-in-command before being promoted to captain, so the "apprenticeship" would be done beforehand. In peacetime, a ship of almost any size would have a Torrai captain and first officer, but in wartime there is often not time for this.

In any "navy", the majority of personnel are going to be working ashore to support the forces in the field, and that's especially true for the Loroi, whose military also perform what we would consider civilian government positions. The supplementary education for Torrai would be less about combat tactics and more about command culture and administrative techniques.

A Listel would not find herself in command of a ship unless there were literally no surviving Soroin or Tenoin officers. Listel can be inducted as Torrai, but on the administrative branch, not the combat branch. She would have to switch to Soroin or Tenoin first, and that's very unusual.

It's possible for a non-Listel to have an eidetic memory, but she wouldn't receive the mentat-like Listel training to make best use of it.

[Snoofman]

I understand that races like the Barsam have hired guns and mercenaries, but does the Loroi military at times hire these mercs? Or is it considered a dishonorable profession amongst the warrior castes?

In fact, are there any Loroi mercs? Or Loroi mercenary ships? And would the warriors ever hire these paid guns even if they were once failed warriors?

If so, why not send these hired guns to fight against the Umiak?

[Arioch]

I understand that races like the Barsam have hired guns and mercenaries, but does the Loroi military at times hire these mercs? Or is it considered a dishonorable profession amongst the warrior castes?

Sure, the Agumo Conference is under contract to the Union, and Mozin's Prophet's Reason is an example. The Agumo ships are armed, but they are mostly employed as couriers, scouts, and special operations forces. Sometimes it's useful to have Barsam-sized troops in close-quarters operations.

In fact, are there any Loroi mercs? Or Loroi mercenary ships? And would the warriors ever hire these paid guns even if they were once failed warriors?

Loroi civilians are not allowed to bear arms, and warriors are not allowed to earn profit, so Loroi can't be conventional mercenaries under the Loroi system. Back in the days of separate warring nations, there were the equivalent of ronin; masterless warriors whose clan had fallen, or who had been punished for a crime with exile. They wandered around doing tasks for room and board, and hoping to impress another clan and be allowed to join. But ever since the unification of Loroi nations, all warriors are considered to serve the central government, and exile is no longer a common punishment (as exile now means leaving Loroi-controlled territory).

There are probably a few Loroi expatriates (either by banishment or self-imposed exile) who operate in non-Loroi territory hiring themselves out as agents, bodyguards, assassins, etc., but the Loroi would never hire them. It's very unlikely that these exiles would be wealthy enough to own starships.

[Dan Wyatt]

Loroi civilians are not allowed to bear arms

So no second amendment for the civvies?

There are probably a few Loroi expatriates (either by banishment or self-imposed exile) who operate in non-Loroi territory hiring themselves out as agents, bodyguards, assassins, etc., but the Loroi would never hire them. It's very unlikely that these exiles would be wealthy enough to own starships.

Interesting, will we see any of these 'freelancers' in the future? A lone Loroi's adventure in the human realm would be pretty interesting!

[Bamax]

Loroi civilians are not allowed to bear arms

So no second amendment for the civvies?

There are probably a few Loroi expatriates (either by banishment or self-imposed exile) who operate in non-Loroi territory hiring themselves out as agents, bodyguards, assassins, etc., but the Loroi would never hire them. It's very unlikely that these exiles would be wealthy enough to own starships.

Interesting, will we see any of these 'freelancers' in the future? A lone Loroi's adventure in the human realm would be pretty interesting!

Same reason a male Loroi version of Batman cannot exist... doubly even more so in Loroi than human society as implausible as it already is.

Out of universe reason? If Arioch showed panel after panel of a male Loroi punching and kicking female Loroi around violently I doubt readers would be comfortable with that.

Inasmuch all 'popular' and 'good' heroes are not known for beating up ladies the way they do males.

Also in Loroi society Teidar and Mizol would totally wreck him anyway.

If they give cyborg death machines problems. a guy in a batsuit with gadgets would make them relieved as they could deal with him at their leisure without challenge.

[Arioch]

Loroi civilians are not allowed to bear arms

So no second amendment for the civvies?

The right to bear arms is specifically what divides the warrior class from the civilians.

There are probably a few Loroi expatriates (either by banishment or self-imposed exile) who operate in non-Loroi territory hiring themselves out as agents, bodyguards, assassins, etc., but the Loroi would never hire them. It's very unlikely that these exiles would be wealthy enough to own starships.

Interesting, will we see any of these 'freelancers' in the future? A lone Loroi's adventure in the human realm would be pretty interesting!

It's the kind of thing that might make for a classic myth.

Out of universe reason? If Arioch showed panel after panel of a male Loroi punching and kicking female Loroi around violently I doubt readers would be comfortable with that.
Inasmuch all 'popular' and 'good' heroes are not known for beating up ladies the way they do males.

No, it's because fighting is totally against the nature of Loroi males, and...

size comparison.jpg (114.17 KiB) Viewed 3909 times

...having this little guy trying to beat up anyone would be laughable. I'm not a devotee of waif-fu.

[Bamax]

Loroi civilians are not allowed to bear arms

So no second amendment for the civvies?

The right to bear arms is specifically what divides the warrior class from the civilians.

There are probably a few Loroi expatriates (either by banishment or self-imposed exile) who operate in non-Loroi territory hiring themselves out as agents, bodyguards, assassins, etc., but the Loroi would never hire them. It's very unlikely that these exiles would be wealthy enough to own starships.

Interesting, will we see any of these 'freelancers' in the future? A lone Loroi's adventure in the human realm would be pretty interesting!

It's the kind of thing that might make for a classic myth.

Out of universe reason? If Arioch showed panel after panel of a male Loroi punching and kicking female Loroi around violently I doubt readers would be comfortable with that.
Inasmuch all 'popular' and 'good' heroes are not known for beating up ladies the way they do males.

No, it's because fighting is totally against the nature of Loroi males, and...

size comparison.jpg

...having this little guy trying to beat up anyone would be laughable. I'm not a devotee of waif-fu.

Wow... did not know they were like children in size.

Anything at 4 feet or close must be tall for them... doubt they ever reach 5.


My, my, Loroi have a strange society where male/female roles are quite reversed.


Man weak, woman strong.

I can see how a human living among them would be quite a challenge due to the pure social disconnect.

Human males are naturally stronger than females. Is that so for Loroi males?

Even if so... it would not even matter because Mizol and Teidar exist.

A male rebellion would be suicide given lack of numbers and weapons.

Besides the obvious superpowers.

[Krulle]

As far as I understood, Loroi males can have the same sets of telepathy skills as the Loroi females.
Including farsensing, telekinetics, ...
They just won't be trained in using them the same ways.
Nor have the same inclination.

On Earth with most species the females are more aggressive and territorial.
Why not the Loroi too?

[GeoModder]

Are Loroi boys typically born smaller then Loroi girls? Or does the size difference between the two sexes start with the onset of pubery?

[orion1836]

Random question... could the engineered misesa outcompete Earth flora on our own soil? For example, if you planted a patch of it inside a wheat field in Kansas, would it eventually take over the wheat?

[Arioch]

Are Loroi boys typically born smaller then Loroi girls? Or does the size difference between the two sexes start with the onset of pubery?

Girls are a little bit heavier at birth, but the size difference increases as they grow, similar to humans.

Random question... could the engineered misesa outcompete Earth flora on our own soil? For example, if you planted a patch of it inside a wheat field in Kansas, would it eventually take over the wheat?

Misesa is very efficient, and so it may outcompete some native plants, but it doesn't actively attack other plants. Presumably, a farmer has to spend some effort to keep unwanted plants and weeds out of his crops, and so the misesa probably wouldn't win in that scenario (wheat is an engineered crop too). But if it look root in an open field of wild grass, it might be able to squeeze out some of the wild grasses.

[Cthulhu]

1. Could the plasma cannons or even the blasters theoretically fire antimatter instead? Wouldn't that increase the damage output, or would that be outside of the combatant's current tech levels?

2. Looking at the size chart above, are those average values for the species shown there? What about the max height for Loroi or the Barsam?

Also, even if the Loroi guys are too short to be taken seriously, at least some of them can overcome this disadvantage by hovering ominously.

[Dan Wyatt]

Random question... could the engineered misesa outcompete Earth flora on our own soil? For example, if you planted a patch of it inside a wheat field in Kansas, would it eventually take over the wheat?

Extremely likely. Soia-organisms have displaced many native species in their habitats, it'd be an ecological disaster unless dealt swiftly.

[Bamax]

1. Could the plasma cannons or even the blasters theoretically fire antimatter instead? Wouldn't that increase the damage output, or would that be outside of the combatant's current tech levels?

2. Looking at the size chart above, are those average values for the species shown there? What about the max height for Loroi or the Barsam?

Also, even if the Loroi guys are too short to be taken seriously, at least some of them can overcome this disadvantage by hovering ominously.

Me talking:

LOL... do you know how overpowered AM is? Even a gram's worth (a thousandth of a kilogram) is enough to dwarf nuclear blast power by a magnitude.

I think you don't mean hand weapins, but ship ones.

Loroi use type A fuel... same power density as AM, less troublesome to handle.

But putting it in a hot plasma beam? That's chaos.

A particle beam of type A could work maybe, but it would be easy to detonate via lasers at long range
And long range fire is all Loroi do all day everyday.