Page 84

[Voitan]

I think without a clear view of the remains, it's not easy to entirely rule out the possibility of survivors.

What if in the ensuing blast, a section of the ship separated before all energy transferred into it?

A lot of things are unlikely, but within the realm of possibility, as was Jardin's survival.

Though if I had to bet on there being any survivors, I'd say none also, but I tend to always keep an open mind until I can see it for myself.

[Trantor]

A lot of things are unlikely, but within the realm of possibility, as was Jardin's survival.

As i understood it, Bell had "only" chemical propulsion. 5000 Tons is IMHO a bit much antimatter/nuclear fuel for a small scout vessel.

[Tamren]

Chemical? I thought they were Hydrogen fueled fusion engines.

[icekatze]

hi hi

Well, the Bellarmine certainly wasn't using conventional chemical rockets as we know them today. She's got way too much ∂V for that. Maybe it was a chemical drive enhanced by small amounts of plot-onium?

(Also, thanks for the heads up Arioch.)

[Karst45]

Arioch has his own Easter egg in Homeworld 2.

arioch_sexier.mp3 You get this message whether you win or lose.

yeah i know (but i tough it was only on loosing)

It funny that they get programed that only for you to find (i suppose they assumed you would use Arioch as a player name)

[osmium]

random points:

1) "heat" only matters if there is matter to conduct it. Radiation is likely to be the cause of death for the Loroi on the ship, not shrapnel or some sort of pressure wave.

2) It looks more like torpedo scale or smaller explosion to me so either it's the same thing as drawing the ships bigger because at scale they would be specks or it was a "small" loss of containment or whatever

3) foundered means sunk, many ships that were sunk have been dredged up and repaired. So I'm leaning toward Mjolnir's side of it meaning no propulsion. Granted there are maneuvering thrusters so to have complete lack of propulsion there needs to be some catastrophic failure of said system, extensive damage, or perhaps the ship has lost main engines and due to time spent maneuvering has no backup method of moving the ship under its own power.

4) I thought it was some sort of fusion reactor in the Bell and I'm sure those were hydrogen tanks that blew up on the Bellarmine.

-O

[Wintermute]

1) "heat" only matters if there is matter to conduct it. Radiation is likely to be the cause of death for the Loroi on the ship, not shrapnel or some sort of pressure wave.

... Are you sure you're not thinking of sound?

[Arioch]

It funny that they get programed that only for you to find (i suppose they assumed you would use Arioch as a player name)

They included about a dozen customized win/loss audio files for particular names, most of whom I think were internal testers. Some of the audio clips were straightforward ("Uberjumper is victorious" or "Uberjumper has been defeated"), but a few of which included a little joke ("Wicked cool, eh? Stratus wins! Yeeeha!"). I suspect the one for me was added as an afterthought.

[NOMAD]

Well, if I may, the Term " foundered" for the loroi might mean Sunk or destroyed. it could just be a Loroi cultural difference

as for survivors, daco right, not really given the kind of A-matter fuels involved.

as for the bell, it was fusion and Alex was near open space ( IE blasted away instead of killed)

As for the sound bit RE: arioch in homeworld 2. I honestly forgot about that, but it means the staff were for or against arioch ??? not to sure

[Mjolnir]

Even if the dynamic of explosion could leave some pockets safe for shockwave, the infernal heat would incinerate everyone and leave the dust on airless space.

Do your arms instantly cook when you take things out of the oven?

Even small objects can survive direct exposure to a thermonuclear fireball from a device set off in atmosphere, leading to a denser, longer lasting fireball than would be produced in space. Large parts of the ship were armored with material meant to resist laser and plasma weapons and nearby torpedo detonations (which may well involve larger amounts of fuel than was in the reactor at the time, though at a greater distance), and the explosion was a very brief event with little time for heat transfer to large objects before the blast became transparent to radiation and most of the heat was lost to space. Radiation and blast effect are the items of concern, not direct heating...this was a partially internal explosion that vaporized a good chunk of the ship around one reactor, producing plasma that would be violently driven into other parts of the ship, causing widespread damage and pushing any surviving portions at accelerations the intact ship was likely not designed to tolerate.

Radiation might not be an issue if this isn't antimatter, but rather some exotic material that's superficially similar but more suitable for spacecraft power source...this may mean things like energy release in longer wavelength EM or lower energy charged particles for easier conversion to useful power, and not losing half of it to neutrinos. The physical violence of the event is another matter...maybe the gravity control systems can do the job of an Orion's shock absorbers for one shot, but it's also very possible the ship was broken apart by the explosion. My point is just that it's not as certain the ship was totally destroyed as some are claiming, it's only confirmed that it's no longer functioning as a ship.

[bunnyboy]

Thanks Mjolnir. You got me think.

1. What if the reason for neglegting rescue are not because of improbability of survival, but condition of the patients.
They can't touch or help comatose patients, as frightened or berserked minds could shred them inside.
Then the loroi have a need for telepathically unwavering human medics.

2. And if the loroi didn't found any other survivors Bellarmine, because the Alexander was only one active.
It is easy to think, that unconscious and sanzai invisible human is dead (at least loroi standard) and they were neglected (maybe purposely if you look number 1) until they were out of help.

[Voitan]

Ohhh... that has some uncomfortable implications for Jardin's crewmembers, but Loroi could use robots to search for survivors if their psychic thrashing is a concern.

[sunphoenix]

Besides I'm sure the Loroi have other sensor systems besides their thought Detection. They found Jardin by his radio transmissions.

[Trantor]

My point is just that it's not as certain the ship was totally destroyed as some are claiming, it's only confirmed that it's no longer functioning as a ship.

Sounds a bit Tepco-ish. SCNR.

[bunnyboy]

@Voitan

I thought that loroi don't approve much of robots and AIs. Don't know why; and are historian constructs exception only because they aren't mobile?

@sunphoenix

http://well-of-souls.com/outsider/outsider015.html
Radiosilence. He was conscious, capaple of making decisions, her hands were free and unharmed, and his radio were working (atleast sending).

But, he was lost lot of air, so if there was someone healthy and unconscious (consuming oxygen slower) in intact suit, he can be still living.
Not everyone were yet found.

[Voitan]

They don't necessarily need AI's, it could simply be remotely piloted.

But the Loroi being distasteful of robots and AI is news to me.

[manticore7]

no, not distrustful of A.I.s, just the Historians. The Historians are very secrative and private which to makes them seem very suspicious to the straight-forward Loroi. the fact that they waited till the Loroi were nearly defeated before helpping them with tech transfers didn't help their relations ether.

[Karst45]

@Voitan

I thought that loroi don't approve much of robots and AIs. Don't know why; and are historian constructs exception only because they aren't mobile?

It was stated (arioch may be more able to retell) that they use many robot so much that technician/engineer and medical staff are mostly "robot operator and supervisor" like it was said on previous post, they distrust the Historian who by the hasard of faith seem to be AI construct

[dex drako]

1) "heat" only matters if there is matter to conduct it. Radiation is likely to be the cause of death for the Loroi on the ship, not shrapnel or some sort of pressure wave.

The ship itself would conduct the heat and the ship is full of air so pressure waves would also happen. The blast it self would make a expending pressure waves strong enough to fight the vacuum of space and move into the rest of the ship.

2) It looks more like torpedo scale or smaller explosion to me so either it's the same thing as drawing the ships bigger because at scale they would be specks or it was a "small" loss of containment or whatever

again that small whit ball is only the start of the blast because Arioch showed as time goes on in the last panel on that line which so many people seem to over look.

The completely white panel after the static filled last communication shot from the winter tide. Remember Arioch has a very good grasp of positive and negative space on his pages so its not just some space he forgot to fill in. it’s a white panel surrounded by the normal black spacing. It was there to show the blast grew to a size larger then the ship or filled the horizon if you will.

There’s also the logistical problem of where the rest of the anti-matter fuel had to be kept. This stuff is hard to handle so he has to be kept near the two engines and the logical place would be the back which was completely destroyed in that blast.

So one way or the other all that anti-matter reacted.

That’s the problem with anti- matter power ship they either work or are completely destroyed it is the nature of the beast. The make a lot of power but blow up when something goes wrong.

But obviously Arioch is keeping quiet on this front for a reason which my guess would be to have a dramatic reveal on some later page.

3) foundered means sunk, many ships that were sunk have been dredged up and repaired. So I'm leaning toward Mjolnir's side of it meaning no propulsion. Granted there are maneuvering thrusters so to have complete lack of propulsion there needs to be some catastrophic failure of said system, extensive damage, or perhaps the ship has lost main engines and due to time spent maneuvering has no backup method of moving the ship under its own power.

a ship without mobility would not be a foundered ship it would be a ship adrift.

A foundered ship has a specific meaning it’s a ship that has completely disappeared from the surface of the water, completely disappeared from sight. In the 2d world of navel warfare that meaning sinking and yeah it can be brought back up from under water back on to that 2d playing field. But in the 3d world of space warfare the only way to completely disappear from sight would be to fall into subspace or be completely be destroyed.

And they did not fall into subspace.

Even small objects can survive direct exposure to a thermonuclear fireball from a device set off in atmosphere, leading to a denser, longer lasting fireball than would be produced in space. Large parts of the ship were armored with material meant to resist laser and plasma weapons and nearby torpedo detonations (which may well involve larger amounts of fuel than was in the reactor at the time, though at a greater distance), and the explosion was a very brief event with little time for heat transfer to large objects before the blast became transparent to radiation and most of the heat was lost to space. Radiation and blast effect are the items of concern, not direct heating...this was a partially internal explosion that vaporized a good chunk of the ship around one reactor, producing plasma that would be violently driven into other parts of the ship, causing widespread damage and pushing any surviving portions at accelerations the intact ship was likely not designed to tolerate.

But The heat made from a matter anti matter reaction would be far worse then that made by a thermonuclear device it may even be worse then touching to the sun. This reaction could form a quark–gluon plasma that is so hot it starts to braking down the fundamental forces of nature. It doesn’t matter how much of that heat was lost to space because the amount hitting the ship would be more then enough.

All that plasma even you said could have rushed into the main body where the main tanks of anti matter would have been held.

Radiation might not be an issue if this isn't antimatter, but rather some exotic material that's superficially similar but more suitable for spacecraft power source...this may mean things like energy release in longer wavelength EM or lower energy charged particles for easier conversion to useful power, and not losing half of it to neutrinos. The physical violence of the event is another matter...maybe the gravity control systems can do the job of an Orion's shock absorbers for one shot, but it's also very possible the ship was broken apart by the explosion. My point is just that it's not as certain the ship was totally destroyed as some are claiming, it's only confirmed that it's no longer functioning as a ship.

sorry Arioch has said it was anti-matter not some other form of exotic material.

[Arioch]

But obviously Arioch is keeping quiet on this front for a reason which my guess would be to have a dramatic reveal on some later page.

Particularly when the subject is clarity of the comic panels, I want to hear as many different views as I can before I interject, because the feedback is useful (I don't have a proofreader).

Science fiction lacks a definitive terminology for the destruction of a space vessel. I've never cared for "blown" or "spaced", and things like "shot down" or "sunk" are both tied to terrestrial examples and are imperfect binary-state analogies; a boat is either floating or it's sunk, and an aircraft is either flying or it isn't. Whereas for a spacecraft, unless it is literally vaporized, there is always something still there. "Founder" does literally mean to sink "to the bottom" (L. fundorare), but it's a little more nuanced, as it is also used to mean to collapse, fail, or be disabled.

In this case "foundered" is used to mean "catastrophic failure," with the implication of a total loss. Dex is correct in his analysis of my intent in the panel sequence; the white-out panel is meant to convey a massive explosion that is unlikely to have left any survivors. It's okay if that's not absolutely clear; some ambiguity in an alien play-by-play is to be expected.

sorry Arioch has said it was anti-matter not some other form of exotic material.

Actually I think I said the opposite: that it's not antimatter but probably some exotic alternative. But you can treat it as antimatter for all intents and purposes, as one matter-annihilation reaction is pretty much the same as another.

It was stated (arioch may be more able to retell) that they use many robot so much that technician/engineer and medical staff are mostly "robot operator and supervisor" like it was said on previous post, they distrust the Historian who by the hasard of faith seem to be AI construct

That's true, the Loroi do make extensive use of non-humanoid robots, especially in service disciplines like maintenance. Bunnyboy's recollection may have been regarding my dismissive attitude toward concepts like AI-controlled automated fleets. I think I have also said that warrior cultures prefer to do their own fighting where it is practical to do so, rather than delegating it do machines... but I doubt that many Loroi object to torpedoes and other munitions being unmanned.