[RP]Cydonia Rising (OOC)

[VonWolffe]

Speaking as a soldier, sunphoenix you are very wrong. No strange person I have never met before, you may not walk right up to my commanding officer with an assault rifle in your hand so we can decide whether we are friends or not, and screw you very much for asking. When the Loroi had Alex on their vessel, do you think they would have been okay with him walking around with a weapon? Even in diplomatic situations, and Alex was one, it is unreasonable to assume non-allied forces would find an armed unknown acceptable. If we were operating under a signed and sealed alliance, that would be a different story, in that case run up and down the halls with a rocket launcher in your hands for all I care. Those of you on the Loroi side need to think about what you just said and reevaluate the position you are in. Also on matters of security there is NO ONE senior to Wolffe on the Cydonia, and he will not be told by the Navy Captain who does not know what marines are for how to handle armed refugees.

On this matter Grayhome is entirely correct. You are out of your mind to think any navy or military would be okay with somebody they don't know wandering around armed on their ship, regardless of who they said they were. I won't have Wolffe threaten anyone in character, but if you pulled this crap on me in the field I would leave you right where you were. Don't want our help? Fine, good luck out there.

[sunphoenix]

What we have here is a classic negotiation...

when I worked as a car salesman, my manager once told me your first offer should make them look at you and go..."Are you serious...you can do better than that.."

The idea being that after the first offer you second offer sounds more realistic...even if you aren't offering the "best Deal"

Its part of negotiating... one side asks for too much, the other side agrees to too little to begin with...then they work toward the middle. ...in the end both sides get part of what they want without giving up anything they have to have.

Indeed it is a negotiation. One best handled likely by the Cydonia Captain as he will be the one held responsible for the results of the "first contact" negotiations regardless of what the marines onboard think or do. Likely, since the Loroi shuttle are the last survivors of a specifically dispatched diplomatic mission to make contact with humaniti... the shuttle will likely be designated an 'embassy in extremis'. True it would be foolish for the Cydonia captain to allow armed aliens to wander his ship so likely their weapons will be restricted to the confines of their shuttle with only the Mizol and perhaps one armed bodyguard to attend to her while she negotiates the full details of the diplomatic mission with the Captain of the Human frigate. No one is expecting to "roam the human ship armed" but to ask aliens to surrender their only means of defense and effectively place themselves as prisoners is just silly.. no one would do that alien or human. Likely the marines would be stationed... in some fashion in the hanger or cargo deck to guard the Loroi shuttle with orders to blow it out into space if there is some violent disturbance. But we all know there won't be as the Loroi are here for a purpose ... not to indulge in military chest-beating.

I still hold that a Human soldier in the same situation stranded on a lifeboat with survivors would not surrender his weapons... though I'm sure he might agree to leave them onboard his vessel rather carry them with him as an obvious security risk to any other nation or countries vessel he happened to be rescued by. Especially when the express purpose of their mission is diplomacy.

Some might not agree but abandoning the aliens who are expressly there for diplomatic contact is NOT a serious option any Ship Captain wanting to remain a Ship Captain in a first contact instance would even consider. He may not like or even agree with the accommodations that are negotiated... but the Aliens wanting to talk with humaniti to open ostensibly peaceful relations could not and would not be ignored or abandoned.

They would be watched VERY closely though.. which is also to be expected.

[Grayhome]

Also the Loroi survivors have concealed weapons at all times (telepathy & psychokinesis) which they can and will use with lethal force at any time. They have all been trained since childhood in the use of this weapon and they will all use it at the first opportunity which presents itself, because that is what they have been trained for their entire lives, using Sanzi to slay non-telepathic sentient life forms. These are Roman/Nazi/Mongul/Drow/Stalin elves we are talking about here, not peace loving forest elves. Arioch has already stated that the Loroi have committed acts which would cause even the most evil of our species to blanch in horror so if anyone thinks they wouldn't slaughter the majority of the ship's human crew and torture the rest into flying them back to Loroi territory then I would suggest you study more history. Hell, from what we know of the Loroi government the Union's top brass would hail that action as a successful diplomatic contact and the perpetrators as heroes.

[Dragoon]

I wouldn't go that far. They might be a bit ruthless but it seems so far, at least as far as i can see from the outsider comics...they are inclined to diplomacy...its when the diplomacy takes a reallllly bad turn they get a little rough.


In this case it's not so much an impossible situation, just one that needs to be ironed out by the characters and is a potentially interesting bit of role play.

[Grayhome]

Commander Stillstorm deliberately refused to tell Ensign Jardin wether or not she had just assassinated an ambassadorial vessel sent under a banner of peace, so that Alex would perceive Stillstorm as the assassin and refuse to tell her anything.

The only reason I can see that she would do this is that she would have an excuse to mindrape him, because she thought it would be faster and easier than asking him and Loroi consider speaking to an alien as beneath them. That is the only conclusion I can fathom from the comic so far.

Diplomacy is not a consideration of the Loroi, they have lied to Alex, attempted to deceive him, and broken their promise to stop interrogating him. Keeping him for an unspecified period of time inside a prison cell in solitary confinement while feeding him toxic food (which I would like to point out is probably poisoned with something designed to break down mental defenses, the Loroi seemed very eager to make Alex eat it) which made him sick to his stomach is a form of torture to humans. That the Loroi are unaware of this is irrelevant, anyone with even a single brain cell in their heads would not have treated an ambassador in this fashion, the Loroi simply do not care.

[sunphoenix]

I wouldn't go that far. They might be a bit ruthless but it seems so far, at least as far as i can see from the outsider comics...they are inclined to diplomacy...its when the diplomacy takes a reallllly bad turn they get a little rough.


In this case it's not so much an impossible situation, just one that needs to be ironed out by the characters and is a potentially interesting bit of role play.

To note... the Loroi tried to mindprobe alex.. to no result. They could have immediately resorted to torture or any number of unsavory ways to get what they wanted... none of which they did. Though I'm sure it occurred to them and likely is what Stillstorm would have wanted... but leveler minds prevailed in their hierarchy.. the Mizol Tempo and Alex was treated rather well. So the Loroi are no more given to unnecessary cruelty than humaniti.

Neither species has a monopoly on brutality and warmongering... nor on calm reasoning and diplomacy.

[VonWolffe]

There seems to be some confusion here, so let me clear this up. Wolffe said that he wants their weapons for the safety of both parties. This means 'we would feel safer if we did not have strangers on our ship with weapons, so we will put them in a locker for you over here and return them to you when wemfigure all this out.' This is where weapons go when they are not being used (except in the case of the Lt Commander who keeps a revolver and rifle under his pillow ) anyway, including in ones own regiment. You only have a weapon issued to you when you are going to be using it or maintaining it. You would be shocked with how little time trained soldiers spend toting a machine gun around, and how comfortable we feel not having it on us. It's just a weapon, and in your scenario where I am aboard a ship with hundreds of trained killers aboard, why would I make a fuss about having my weapon put in the locker in order to make everyone feel better? Would that weapon help me in any way whatsoever if they meant me harm?

Safety is not something you negotiate about. In Khandahar Air Field there were a number of Afghan nationals who worked on the base. They were checked thoroughly (rubber glove thoroughly) every single day when they came on base and when they left. You are not my ally, but neither are you my enemy. We might be friends one day, but we are not right now. I will give you food, water, air and medicine but no you may not walk around with that Kalashnikov on my base even if you mean well. Why? Cause its my base. Maybe if you have a base one day you can make the rules.

Once again think of how the Loroi treated Alex. They shoved him in a broom cupboard, interrogated him, and left him in solitary in his underpants. When Alex woke up he did not start screaming bloody murder about how them taking his EVA suit away was going to threaten the peace process.

Another thing, there is a freaking massive difference between a prisoner and a guest. The guest uses the locker and might be confined to some out of the way areas to not interfere with the day to day running of the ship while being treated well by the crew and security alike. The prisoner gets a flying drop kick to the face, zap strapped in a pool of blood on the floor, dragged into a truck with a bag over his head, then is stripped to his underwear and subjected to enhanced interrogation techniques and sleep deprivation while kept in isolation for weeks on end. Also is you have to piss, you are doing so in your underpants. Handing over a weapon does not equate being a prisoner, in fact it's one of the faster ways to earn trust and be diplomatic.

Also, the numbers. I have 14 marines including myself. Assume 7 are on duty at any given time while the rest are catching rack time, exercising, eating, pers time. 4 of those are busy with general duties and maintenance at any given time. One of those is in the armoury. That leaves two to watch your 30 Loroi, and one of those is the officer. And they want to keep their weapons? Is anyone seeing how not okay this is?

I did not realize the human craft was so much smaller than the Loroi one. A check will still be necessary, but leading the craft back will be fine.

And since we seem to enjoy our scenarios; Your section of 14 men is walking through a village. Command has told you that we need to form a partnership with either the red tribe or the blue tribe in order to keep the peace here, but both tribes are much larger than the forces we have in this area. Your section comes upon a battle, but everyone on both sides is wearing white. After the battle, some of the whites wander up to the section saying they are hurt tired and hungry, and they know some guy called Alex from command who says they are cool. The whites want to go back to your base, but also want to bring all their shiny RPGs and AKs in too. Not because they need them but cause they make them feel comfortable an fuzzy inside. Oh, and there are 30 whites and 14 of you.

Not cool.

[Dragoon]

this is a case where neither side is completely out of line in their actions and words. In real life sometimes both sides are just a bit off the mark when the first stages of a meeting get underway. That is why people negotiate and find a mutually agreeable course of action...

all the above are fairly solid reasons, (well short of their evil I tell you!!! well actually that is a fair reason not to trust someone right off the bat...it only becomes a problem when you can move beyond that.)to take a course of action. The trick is find a course of action that both sides can live with.

Initial encounters are never smooth and without hiccups... best bet is to play it out, in character, and see where we go from here

[Beliskner]

TThis is where weapons go when they are not being used (except in the case of the Lt Commander who keeps a revolver and rifle under his pillow )

That's funny Wolffe please read a story posts carefully first ok? It's mention that he garbed his rifle at armory where he suited up. About revolver I can assume that there can be some-kind "Deposit Box" build in to wall, the same like in modern submarines. I saw many times such things in cpt and dyp. officer rooms where they have sensitive object stored. No big deal here I guess.

By the way I find number of loroi aboard shuttle strange 30... Am I only person thinking that this number is somehow misplaced?

[Suederwind]

By the way I find number of loroi aboard shuttle strange 30... Am I only person thinking that this number is somehow misplaced?

I think in the prelude I stated that about 1/3 of Argent Fires crew survived and that the shuttle is crammed full of survivors. They only had this one shuttle left and no one should be left behind.

As for the current situation: I do think that the loroi believe in diplomacy, without it there would be no allies to them, only slaves and this war would be over a long time ago. The Loroi are on a diplomatic mission to those humans in this game and I honestly don't think that it makes much sense to discuss the whole "the Loroi destroyed the Bell" thing all over again. Yes, they threated Alex bad and even the Loroi admited that, but I am sure that there are other reasons for that behaviour than just: "the loroi are evil".

Wolffe has indeed a point, why let them have their weapons aboard Cydonia? Thats a possible thread, indeed. They Loroi are a warrior race and I do not think they would give up their weapons so easy. However, as Dragoon pointed our: this is a matter of negotiations and we should play it out. The Mizol knows this and she knows that they have psionic powers which humans do not have.

[Senanthes]

Just to offer my two cents, right now, it's in both parties best interests that the weapons be given over, for numerous reasons. Frankly, I'd leave them out there myself if they refused, since they represent an unknown threat. It wont be hard for them to press their position later as a technological superpower, and the human leadership already knows they are, to a basic extent. That was the point of Alex's mission in the first place, to make contact before humanity got themselves stuck in a crossfire they can't survive. Besides which, that shuttle wont last long on its own. Overcrowded. Unarmed. Limited endurance. No jump drive. Just my thoughts.

[Suederwind]

Overcrowded. Unarmed. Limited endurance. No jump drive

Yes, that is the correct description of their situation. The weapons are something the Mizol uses as a bargain. What I wanted to say earlier was: the loroi do not really need those weapons in that situation anyway, the Mizol knows that, but handing them over now would be too much to ask for, at the moment. And it would make the Mizol look weak and stupid from a Loroi point of view.

[Charlie]

We could confine them to thier ship in our docking bay if they wish to remain armed, we would need to leave men stationed to ''observe'' them.

The Orgus told Humankind that the Lorai commited a goodling number of warcrimes.
I wouldn`t sleep well if armed hostiles could free roam on my ship.

Worst comes to worst we wait them out, once the air depletes we rescue any surrviors, we then procced to remove any visable weapons. I doubt we understand the Telepathy much less the amps used to strengthen it.

On a another matter do we have enough space for 30 more humanoids? Surely we won`t have enough beds or blankets. Many someone`s are gona have to give up some of thier sleeping equipment.

[Dragoon]

Guys first off the Loroi aren't hostiles, right now they are unknowns.

Humanity had already sent ships to make diplomatic contact with eh Loroi... So the moment they confirm that is a Loroi ship, the situation goes from possible hostile to someone we want to Make friends with real fast.

and there are two very important words that haven't been mentioned ..Loroi, and diplomat/ambassador

[Suederwind]

and there are two very important words that haven't been mentioned ..Loroi, and diplomat/ambassador

Thats essentially the next logical step, I would say.

[VonWolffe]

Just had a massive post eaten by the system. Too angry to post again tonight. Please continue with no response from the humans.

[Suederwind]

Oh, I hate it when that happens to me and I´m sorry to hear that. But I think I´am not the only one who would like to read Wolffes response to Twilightsaber.
Just take your time, we will be happy to read it tomorrow if that is possible.

[sunphoenix]

Yeah that sucks. Ok. I've modified my last post for the last time... grrr... writing is stressful when you want it to be perfect. So I promise NO MORE modifications. Read it in its final form.. I felt I needed to clarify some things. It almost seemed that Stormrage was claiming Stillstorm was her mother.. not true. {sigh}.. wish I was a better writer.

[Suederwind]

Thinking about the situation for a while now and I think Twilightsaber will make some things clear, as the medical situation is clearly worse than before.

[Victor_D]

Gods, I like your RP. Too bad I know absolutely nothing about it, otherwise I would have joined