Loroi sexuality

[fredgiblet]

Problem 1: Our unemployed people will scream "They took our jobs".

I don't think the numbers will be that significant, won't stop human supremacists from whining, but in the end it won't be a big deal.

Problem 2: Our females will scream "They took our men".

Free market, offer a better product and the customers will come back.

On a serious note however. Would large numbers of loroi be interested in making permament residents in human space? Wouldn't that invite the prospect of loroi females bringing males along in order to maintain their population?

Define large. Obviously we're flying pretty blind, but I'd guess that the number (counting military assignments, immigrants and contractors) would probably end up in the millions after a decade or so, possibly higher, but I think that independent mobility will be rare in Loroi society and a LOT of them will be culturally resistant to change of that magnitude.

They won't bring males because they won't be allowed to, emigrating will probably be essentially giving up any chance of reproduction, which is why it will likely mostly be done by females who don't have much chance in the first place. There will probably be very few females in human space who are terribly concerned with reproduction.

Unemployment in a total-war scenario?

The majority of this will be after the war is won (not necessarily OVER, but won). By the point emigration to human space becomes viable in any significant quantities the Loroi will be tapering off the war, WE will probably still be ramping up our expansion, so employment opportunities will abound for us, I doubt unemployment will be an issue. It's still funny though.

[Suederwind]

They are cold though - not just cold hands and feet, *cold* all over.

Yeah, think about it that way: You wake up the next morning, having a serious hangover, and next to you lies this cold and blue female body. Who wouldn´t freak out?

Would large numbers of loroi be interested in making permament residents in human space?

Maybe, I guess. On the other side: wouldn´t human populated worlds (like earth) be very noisy and loud to them? I can´t imagine, for example, a Loroi going to a pub and enjoying that experience. All that noise, loud humans, music, etc... Wouldn´t that drive them mad or at least disgust them?

[Jericho]

I don't think the numbers will be that significant, won't stop human supremacists from whining, but in the end it won't be a big deal.

You alien lovers make me sick! (damn it we need a grumpy smily)

Free market, offer a better product and the customers will come back.

Yes but we can atleast reproduce with our, oh wait thats why we choose them never mind.

Define large. Obviously we're flying pretty blind, but I'd guess that the number (counting military assignments, immigrants and contractors) would probably end up in the millions after a decade or so, possibly higher, but I think that independent mobility will be rare in Loroi society and a LOT of them will be culturally resistant to change of that magnitude.

They won't bring males because they won't be allowed to, emigrating will probably be essentially giving up any chance of reproduction, which is why it will likely mostly be done by females who don't have much chance in the first place. There will probably be very few females in human space who are terribly concerned with reproduction.

The majority of this will be after the war is won (not necessarily OVER, but won). By the point emigration to human space becomes viable in any significant quantities the Loroi will be tapering off the war, WE will probably still be ramping up our expansion, so employment opportunities will abound for us, I doubt unemployment will be an issue. It's still funny though.

I was thinking in the millions perhaps.

But a problem arises again: Define much of a chance. If the loroi don't have much of a chance in their own home how would they be able to pay their way offworld and if they are able to attract a human company to pay for them, wouldn't they atleast be valuable enough for the loroi to convince them to stay?

Maybe, I guess. On the other side: wouldn´t human populated worlds (like earth) be very noisy and loud to them? I can´t imagine, for example, a Loroi going to a pub and enjoying that experience. All that noise, loud humans, music, etc... Wouldn´t that drive them mad or at least disgust them?

There are more than just pubs for loroi patrons to visit. And quite honestly it may take some training but it will be up to individual loroi if a pub is the place to go.

[fredgiblet]

Maybe, I guess. On the other side: wouldn´t human populated worlds (like earth) be very noisy and loud to them? I can´t imagine, for example, a Loroi going to a pub and enjoying that experience. All that noise, loud humans, music, etc... Wouldn´t that drive them mad or at least disgust them?

Absolutely. There will probably be a lot that go back after being here, but then there's also the colony worlds where you can still have a nice 5 acre lot with a white picket fence for cheap. There's also plenty of options that don't involve going into the crush, public transit would always be a problem, but a desk job where they can work from home and only go out at off-peak hours would work. There'll also probably be "Bluetowns" where the majority of the residents are Loroi ex-pats of one stripe or another that will cater to the newcomers. It's not going to be for everyone, but some of them will find a niche they enjoy.

Yes but we can atleast reproduce with our, oh wait thats why we choose them never mind.

Indeed.

But a problem arises again: Define much of a chance. If the loroi don't have much of a chance in their own home how would they be able to pay their way offworld and if they are able to attract a human company to pay for them, wouldn't they atleast be valuable enough for the loroi to convince them to stay?

Not at all, once the war tapers off and the push for population subsides most civilians are automatically out of the running from my understanding. There will be plenty of jobs that a Loroi can make a living at here that won't qualify them as reproduction-worthy in Loroi space, from ditch digger to dominatrix there's plenty of occupations that Loroi can handle that wouldn't get them a pass to male at home. Granted some of those jobs they'll be in direct competition with humans and thus will have to be good, but that's the risk you take.

As for the problem of paying their way that will definitely be an issue for many of them, but I can see there being a variety of organizations (including possibly governments) in human space willing to offer loans for Loroi who want to come to Earth and there will likely be plenty of ships who are willing to take on a Loroi passenger at reduced or no cost provided she can pull her weight on the way over. There's chances for abuse there, but nothing about coming to human space would be without risk for them.

[Karst45]

We'll find out their opinions once they get on the Internet.

This Episode of Wonder of the universe resume quite nicely what COULD happen, what they could see, once they find internet.

[Jericho]

Not at all, once the war tapers off and the push for population subsides most civilians are automatically out of the running from my understanding. There will be plenty of jobs that a Loroi can make a living at here that won't qualify them as reproduction-worthy in Loroi space, from ditch digger to dominatrix there's plenty of occupations that Loroi can handle that wouldn't get them a pass to male at home. Granted some of those jobs they'll be in direct competition with humans and thus will have to be good, but that's the risk you take.

As for the problem of paying their way that will definitely be an issue for many of them, but I can see there being a variety of organizations (including possibly governments) in human space willing to offer loans for Loroi who want to come to Earth and there will likely be plenty of ships who are willing to take on a Loroi passenger at reduced or no cost provided she can pull her weight on the way over. There's chances for abuse there, but nothing about coming to human space would be without risk for them.

Yeah... the TCA is going to have their hands full with loroi trafficking. Presuming that they care.

[Voitan]

It shouldn't be underestimated that the cultural freedom of human colonies wouldn't restrict a Loroi's drive, or passion for other things that were closed off to them, by the caste system, Loroi culture, or it's government.

It most certainly would be audibly noisy in human colonies while amongst the populace, its smells may be weird, the people might act funny to a Loroi, but there, they can be whatever they want to be.

[GeoModder]

We're talking about members of a species that already roams the worlds of a dozen alien races. Most Loroi on shore leave during patrol runs won't have any other choice then to walk among aliens, so I gather walking among humans won't be that much of an issue compared to that.

[Voitan]

You still think that Loroi and humans could get together? Let's think. A warrior-amazon race. They would look like Red Sonia or culturists or even worse - NRD swiming team. In comic they look great but in real life they are muscles not supermodels (one of internet rules states that irl everything is worse). Then second issue. As every species they are biologiclly atracted to THEIR males, who happen to be delicate or fragile. Only skinny, small nerds could get some... wait... nevermind...

I can tell you right now, IRL, human ideas of what counts as sexy can be anything.

ANYTHING.

So not really a problem on the human side.

Presumably Loroi are pretty much human in their thinking for the most part. Psychic perception of the Loroi being the only truly alien thing between the two.

[bunnyboy]

It's not problem, if female loroi looks like blue weightlifters with elven ears to us or male humans looks like pink dickgirl to them. There is enough people in both sides to have some brave/pervert enough to give a test run.

But nobody asked, if there is any action with loroi and their allies.

Neridi are closest ally of loroi. Perhaps their manly cute appearance is reason for that. They are mostly technicians and stuff, but I wouldn't be surprised if there are some neridi prostitutes too.
Barsam are big, but they can be very charming with their warrior culture and devotion to peace. And if you are accustomed their appearance, they don't look bad either.
And golim are mesmerized slaves serving loroi ecstatily any possible way.

Actually, I think that if there is any chance that Alexander visit on local jade garden, he isn't first alien there.

[Victor_D]

I doubt there would be much Loroi immigration to human worlds in the "near future", assuming humans indeed join the Loroi alliance.

1) Space travel ain't cheap, even in Outsider, especially not interstellar space travel. How many jumps is it from the edge of Loroi space to Terran space? I'd guess quite a few, as it takes about 2 months to get there. (Which seems pretty optimistic to me; if an average jump length was about 10 ly, it would still take 21 jumps, even if the ship travelled in straight line for the destination. With an average system-crossing time of about 1-2 weeks, discounting the necessary measurements of the next destination star's movement, it should take more, say 5 to 6 months. But Bellarmine was a scout vessel, so it probably was quite a bit faster than a freighter would be). This means not many Loroi would be able to afford the trip, and those who could wouldn't be interested in staying (why would they? If they have the money/status in Loroi society, why should they exchange that for a life of an immigrant in an alien world?). I guess limited high-class tourism for rich and bored (and well-connected, if they want to get permits) Loroi is a possibility, but not much beyond that.

2) Those Loroi who would travel to Terran space courtesy of the Loroi government - soldiers, tech specialists, scientists, diplomats, etc. - would almost certainly be under close observation and couldn't simply leave. That would constitute desertion and I assume Terrans would be obligated by their treaties with the Loroi to return such individuals to Loroi space for punishment. (I doubt they'd be willing to risk angering the Loroi government by granting these individuals political asylum in the same way Western governments automatically granted asylum to refugees from the Eastern Bloc).

3) Human worlds except Earth aren't exactly inviting (and Earth is probably too overpopulated to be interested in immigration); Loroi seeking better life would probably consider one of their own colonies where social rules/state oversight aren't so strict. Not to mention human worlds are not prepared to accommodate Loroi inhabitants in terms of their dietary needs, medicine, entertainment, etc. The lack of Loroi males means no procreation.

4) Alien individuals are a security risk; Terrans would almost certainly want to keep an eye on them and no allow them unlimited access to everything in Terran space. The less of them are present, the better.

5) The Loroi would almost certainly not allow their citizens to move freely to Human space. They are an authoritarian government, and if those have something in common, it's their reluctance to allow their subject to leave the earthly paradise of true socialism (or whatever they call it) they're building. See the "Iron Curtain" Wiki entry for further information if needed.

6) Unlike between humans on Earth, where it is fairly easy for an illegal immigrant to hide in the crowd (unless you are white and you're trying to hide in a crowd of blacks or asians), the Loroi illegal immigrants would have a pretty hard time not attracting attention. Even if they could somehow paint themselves pink, dye their hair, and hide their ears, they'd still require special food to survive and any doctor could tell they're not human.

I could probably come up with several other reasons, but this is enough. I am just not seeing how any significant immigration of the Loroi to human space (especially for lowly reasons such as being strippers/prostitutes/porn actresses/etc.) could be possible in this setting.

Wait, I can - if the Loroi occupy Earth, they will probably have to send a lot of soldiers to maintain order, many millions, probably. So, here you go, if you want your Loroi girlfriends, this is what you should wish for

[bunnyboy]

A girlfriend with price of freedom of all humans? Tough choice, but I might buy.
Better be a bedwarmer than alone.

[fredgiblet]

1) Space travel ain't cheap

True, but there will be a lot of economic movement in the next few decades, the industrial capacity of Earth probably can't match the Loroi Empire, but it won't be insignificant either. Unless the Loroi plan to do all the shipping themselves our ships will go to their space and I see it being entirely possible for Loroi to get a berth on a freighter for not much more than cost. I can see the human governments subsidizing Loroi coming over as encouraging mixing stands a good chance of improving our lot with the Loroi by making both sides more accepting and there will be positions of value that only Loroi can fill effectively for some time (how much would a Hollywood studio pay for a Loroi actress?). Additionally the governments probably already subsidize immigration to the colony worlds, this is just a larger subsidy.

2)

Agreed.

3) Human worlds except Earth aren't exactly inviting (and Earth is probably too overpopulated to be interested in immigration); Loroi seeking better life would probably consider one of their own colonies where social rules/state oversight aren't so strict. Not to mention human worlds are not prepared to accommodate Loroi inhabitants in terms of their dietary needs, medicine, entertainment, etc. The lack of Loroi males means no procreation.

Our colony worlds probably aren't much worse than colony worlds that a lot of Loroi live on. That being said most would take Loroi worlds, sure, I'm not expecting billions to come here anytime soon.

Dietary needs are already taken care of (Alex isn't going to die anytime soon, so our foods are compatible), medicine will be taken care of in not too long, it's doubtful that their chemical production methods are wildly above ours, and our value as a supply depot means that medicines will be high on the list of things to produce. Entertainment is taken care of already, it's different sure, but it shouldn't be hard to find something interesting to do on human worlds, be it a concert, sports event or board games even (I'll teach them Carcassonne, I'm sure some of them will like it). In peacetime most Loroi don't get the chance to reproduce anyway, we won't see many war heroes, high-ranking political figures or the like coming over, but there's plenty of Loroi who won't lose any reproductive opportunities by being in human space because they didn't have any to start with.

4) Alien individuals are a security risk; Terrans would almost certainly want to keep an eye on them and no allow them unlimited access to everything in Terran space. The less of them are present, the better.

The Loroi will be embedded in our government and STEM fields, having a Loroi ex-pat hanging around Aldea working construction or Hollywood acting in Rom-Coms isn't going to be a security risk when we have Mizol plants in our universities and R&D labs.

5) The Loroi would almost certainly not allow their citizens to move freely to Human space. They are an authoritarian government, and if those have something in common, it's their reluctance to allow their subject to leave the earthly paradise of true socialism (or whatever they call it) they're building. See the "Iron Curtain" Wiki entry for further information if needed.

This is the major potential damper. If the Loroi government says no then that's pretty much it, there will be a tiny trickle of the most unhappy people but not much else. That being said I don't see the Loroi considering it to be that big of a deal. This isn't them defecting to the enemy, this is them moving to an ally that they wield considerable sway over. Less like Russia to America, more like Russia to Estonia.

I could probably come up with several other reasons, but this is enough. I am just not seeing how any significant immigration of the Loroi to human space (especially for lowly reasons such as being strippers/prostitutes/porn actresses/etc.) could be possible in this setting.

Define significant. I don't think anyone is suggesting that tens or hundreds of millions of Loroi are going to jump at the chance to come to human space, but a steady trickle filtering in is perfectly plausible IMO. As for those particular careers I doubt more than a handful will come here specifically for them (though if there's any sexual outliers in Loroi society Earth WILL be a choice destination) but they will be lucrative and not terribly difficult careers, so they will have an appeal even if they weren't the goal. A big part of the reason why So-Cal is the porn capital of the US is because of the number of failed "actresses" in So-Cal who have bills to pay while their break is firmly out of reach.

[Victor_D]

True, but there will be a lot of economic movement in the next few decades, the industrial capacity of Earth probably can't match the Loroi Empire, but it won't be insignificant either. Unless the Loroi plan to do all the shipping themselves our ships will go to their space and I see it being entirely possible for Loroi to get a berth on a freighter for not much more than cost.

I assume that this would happen, IF Loroi immigration was considered legal by both sides (that is, the Loroi didn't object to their people leaving and our government(s) didn't mind granting them residency permits). It still wouldn't be cheap, I imagine.

I can see the human governments subsidizing Loroi coming over as encouraging mixing stands a good chance of improving our lot with the Loroi by making both sides more accepting and there will be positions of value that only Loroi can fill effectively for some time (how much would a Hollywood studio pay for a Loroi actress?). Additionally the governments probably already subsidize immigration to the colony worlds, this is just a larger subsidy.

I doubt that the Loroi give a damn about how 'accepting' we are of their race, and I doubt even more they'd subsidize people leaving their empire and settling down in, and potentially helping, an alien race beyond of what it has already provided through direct technology/cultural transfers. Again, they're not a democratic government, they're a Soviet Union on steroids. OK, maybe not as totalitarian since the population generally accepts this way of organizing the government. So, China on steroids.

Hollywood studios, if they still exist, will probably find it cheaper to animate them than hiring live-action actors. After all, they already can animate blue aliens quite well

The Loroi will be embedded in our government and STEM fields, having a Loroi ex-pat hanging around Aldea working construction or Hollywood acting in Rom-Coms isn't going to be a security risk when we have Mizol plants in our universities and R&D labs.

Which is why I think that if possible, the Terran authorities will keep a close eye on these "specialists" sent to help us catch up, and will try to limit their number. Kind of similar to how the Russian "military advisers" were often dealt with by the Soviet allies (for a good reason, they *did* spy on their host countries, sometimes trying to basically take them over).

This is the major potential damper. If the Loroi government says no then that's pretty much it, there will be a tiny trickle of the most unhappy people but not much else. That being said I don't see the Loroi considering it to be that big of a deal. This isn't them defecting to the enemy, this is them moving to an ally that they wield considerable sway over. Less like Russia to America, more like Russia to Estonia.

I don't think the Loroi truly "trust" any of their allies, assuming they know what "trust" even means. Their variant of "trusting someone" seems to include keeping them as a subservient race, subtly (Neridi, Barsam) or openly (the rest).

I made the assumption Terrans will join them as an independent ally, therefore the Loroi won't trust us very much, will want to keep an eye on us, and won't help us beyond the absolute minimum of what's necessary to make us useful against the Umiak. I don't think they'd be okay with their people going to the Terrans independently, possibly teaching them stuff the government doesn't want to share. Since Terrans still have a lot of room to expand if they're allowed to, I doubt the Loroi would want to further support our rise to a potentially threatening status.

Define significant.

More than a few thousands, tens of thousands perhaps (not including Loroi military personnel stationed in Terran space by mutual agreement, I mean proper immigrants).

But maybe the Earth sex industry could volunteer to take up Loroi prisoners for "punishment" *wink wink*. After all, aliens don't have any human rights, right?
/sick joke

[fredgiblet]

I assume that this would happen, IF Loroi immigration was considered legal by both sides (that is, the Loroi didn't object to their people leaving and our government(s) didn't mind granting them residency permits). It still wouldn't be cheap, I imagine.

The expense would be high, but it would be variable and in some cases negotiable. If you're trying to travel by some sort of regular passenger service then it would probably be very expensive, but direct and fast. There will probably be plenty of freighters plying their trade around as well that can provide cheaper arrangements at the expense of speed and comfort. Subsidies from the human goverments and corporations could make it reasonable. That being said it will probably be unreasonable to anyone who's not serious about making the trip, it won't be a vacation, but rather a life choice.

I doubt that the Loroi give a damn about how 'accepting' we are of their race, and I doubt even more they'd subsidize people leaving their empire and settling down in, and potentially helping, an alien race beyond of what it has already provided through direct technology/cultural transfers.

The Loroi government almost certainly won't provide subsidies. The benefit to them of mixing would be normalization of Loroi control. Putting a "human" face on them makes control more palatable. That would primarily drive state-sponsored celebrities like I've mentioned earlier, but general immigration would be beneficial to that as well (unless everyone you send over is an asshole). We could also serve as a convenient place to drop off malcontents who don't really deserve more extreme measures.

Hollywood studios, if they still exist, will probably find it cheaper to animate them than hiring live-action actors. After all, they already can animate blue aliens quite well

True, and CGI will probably be the primary method of portraying Loroi, however having an ACTUAL Loroi on-screen would, I feel, provide a sort of prestige (unless it becomes totally common). Japan has had some success with virtual celebrities recently, but I expect that they won't ever replace the real thing.

Which is why I think that if possible, the Terran authorities will keep a close eye on these "specialists" sent to help us catch up, and will try to limit their number. Kind of similar to how the Russian "military advisers" were often dealt with by the Soviet allies (for a good reason, they *did* spy on their host countries, sometimes trying to basically take them over).

Sure, but that doesn't really apply to the people I'm talking about. If they are qualified for a position that would be considered a security risk they're probably high-ranking enough that they'll be unlikely to emigrate from Loroi space, and if they do then they'll be watched too, I don't see that many who are going into defense contracting in human space.

I made the assumption Terrans will join them as an independent ally, therefore the Loroi won't trust us very much, will want to keep an eye on us, and won't help us beyond the absolute minimum of what's necessary to make us useful against the Umiak. I don't think they'd be okay with their people going to the Terrans independently, possibly teaching them stuff the government doesn't want to share. Since Terrans still have a lot of room to expand if they're allowed to, I doubt the Loroi would want to further support our rise to a potentially threatening status.

We won't be independent. We lack the power to hold out for favorable terms of that nature, rather we'll be junior members of the Union for a while and eventually, if we play our cards right, gain a senior standing.

Our future status is an interesting question for both us and the Loroi. Our tolerance of high-density living makes it so that we don't need much space to out-number them and our unrestricted reproduction means we'll likely outnumber them within a couple hundred years or so (depending on colony quality). The Loroi have superior military force and superior technology right now, rendering us harmless in the short-term, but our tech development and numbers (with the accompanying industrial capacity) will make us a threat in the long-term. Holding us at arm's length doesn't help with the threat though, left to our own devices we'll be a MUCH bigger threat than if they integrate us. If they hold us apart it will only alienate us and make it harder to keep tabs on us, if they go with the heavy-handed overbearing overlord route (which, IIRC would be uncharacteristic) then they lose a lot of our value. The easiest path is short-term genocide, but that's also a serious over-reaction. The best path for them is to integrate us into the Union and let us handle ourselves internally they'll reap the benefits of our technical development at a low cost to themselves (just providing military protection and funding for military projects). We get autonomy to a large degree, they get toys to use for their wars and nominal control.

It doesn't benefit either of us to pursue the threat, for the Loroi they will have to destroy a valuable asset. For us we can't do anything without building a military force and we've discussed the difficulties with that so the risk of pursuing a violent conflict is very high. If we push for overt independence then we'll be forcing the Loroi's hand as they can't tolerate us as a threat. Instead our best resolution will be to make ourselves indispensable and attempt to integrate into their society as much as we can to reduce the Otherness if possible. Once we have minimized the threat we pose we can make in-roads and attempt to influence the Loroi from within, rather than trying to impose our will from the outside. I'm personally fine with being the court magician to the Loroi's Queen, let them take the risks while we get to play in our lab unhindered as long as we produce results.

[NOMAD]

I assume that this would happen, IF Loroi immigration was considered legal by both sides (that is, the Loroi didn't object to their people leaving and our government(s) didn't mind granting them residency permits). It still wouldn't be cheap, I imagine.

The expense would be high, but it would be variable and in some cases negotiable. If you're trying to travel by some sort of regular passenger service then it would probably be very expensive, but direct and fast. There will probably be plenty of freighters plying their trade around as well that can provide cheaper arrangements at the expense of speed and comfort. Subsidies from the human goverments and corporations could make it reasonable. That being said it will probably be unreasonable to anyone who's not serious about making the trip, it won't be a vacation, but rather a life choice..

the loroi might also want colonies in our space as well if humanity joins the loroi Union. if that were the case then the loroi would have a Big one-sided advantage as their empire and trade ship fleet is larger by several degrees to earths. but who would go, colonies, tradition nomadic loroi warrior families (just to see the new humans :/).

I doubt that the Loroi give a damn about how 'accepting' we are of their race, and I doubt even more they'd subsidize people leaving their empire and settling down in, and potentially helping, an alien race beyond of what it has already provided through direct technology/cultural transfers.

The Loroi government almost certainly won't provide subsidies. The benefit to them of mixing would be normalization of Loroi control. Putting a "human" face on them makes control more palatable. That would primarily drive state-sponsored celebrities like I've mentioned earlier, but general immigration would be beneficial to that as well (unless everyone you send over is an asshole). We could also serve as a convenient place to drop off malcontents who don't really deserve more extreme measures..[/quote]

ah yes, human world where all the "special" loroi go, just like the Canada airborne division all over again. Man that is not the best story of politic and military policy.

Hollywood studios, if they still exist, will probably find it cheaper to animate them than hiring live-action actors. After all, they already can animate blue aliens quite well

True, and CGI will probably be the primary method of portraying Loroi, however having an ACTUAL Loroi on-screen would, I feel, provide a sort of prestige (unless it becomes totally common). Japan has had some success with virtual celebrities recently, but I expect that they won't ever replace the real thing.

I think outsider could be done with live actors for the loroi, the lord of the rings triology used alot of "elf" like actors, stand-ins and background people (tall with long faces).

I made the assumption Terrans will join them as an independent ally, therefore the Loroi won't trust us very much, will want to keep an eye on us, and won't help us beyond the absolute minimum of what's necessary to make us useful against the Umiak. I don't think they'd be okay with their people going to the Terrans independently, possibly teaching them stuff the government doesn't want to share. Since Terrans still have a lot of room to expand if they're allowed to, I doubt the Loroi would want to further support our rise to a potentially threatening status.

We won't be independent. We lack the power to hold out for favorable terms of that nature, rather we'll be junior members of the Union for a while and eventually, if we play our cards right, gain a senior standing.

Our future status is an interesting question for both us and the Loroi. Our tolerance of high-density living makes it so that we don't need much space to out-number them and our unrestricted reproduction means we'll likely outnumber them within a couple hundred years or so (depending on colony quality). The Loroi have superior military force and superior technology right now, rendering us harmless in the short-term, but our tech development and numbers (with the accompanying industrial capacity) will make us a threat in the long-term. Holding us at arm's length doesn't help with the threat though, left to our own devices we'll be a MUCH bigger threat than if they integrate us. If they hold us apart it will only alienate us and make it harder to keep tabs on us, if they go with the heavy-handed overbearing overlord route (which, IIRC would be uncharacteristic) then they lose a lot of our value. The easiest path is short-term genocide, but that's also a serious over-reaction. The best path for them is to integrate us into the Union and let us handle ourselves internally they'll reap the benefits of our technical development at a low cost to themselves (just providing military protection and funding for military projects). We get autonomy to a large degree, they get toys to use for their wars and nominal control.

It doesn't benefit either of us to pursue the threat, for the Loroi they will have to destroy a valuable asset. For us we can't do anything without building a military force and we've discussed the difficulties with that so the risk of pursuing a violent conflict is very high. If we push for overt independence then we'll be forcing the Loroi's hand as they can't tolerate us as a threat. Instead our best resolution will be to make ourselves indispensable and attempt to integrate into their society as much as we can to reduce the Otherness if possible. Once we have minimized the threat we pose we can make in-roads and attempt to influence the Loroi from within, rather than trying to impose our will from the outside. I'm personally fine with being the court magician to the Loroi's Queen, let them take the risks while we get to play in our lab unhindered as long as we produce results.

well said sir, well said.

I'm still worried how all of the loroi population would react to a species that looks remarkably like them

[Victor_D]

We won't be independent. We lack the power to hold out for favorable terms of that nature, rather we'll be junior members of the Union for a while and eventually, if we play our cards right, gain a senior standing.

We are also pretty far away from the Loroi space. This (logistics) is I admit the chief reason why I think we will be (semi-)independent ally, rather than a fully integrated member of the Union. Mind you, when I say independent ally, I don't mean the same kind of relationship as between, say, USA and Australia. We'll almost certainly be a client state, formally independent, in practice subject to Loroi will and whims for quite a long time. Something like Cuba and the Soviet Union, or Finland and Nazi Germany. (If I wanted to add a joke, I'd say "Britain and the United States" )

Our future status is an interesting question for both us and the Loroi. Our tolerance of high-density living makes it so that we don't need much space to out-number them and our unrestricted reproduction means we'll likely outnumber them within a couple hundred years or so (depending on colony quality). The Loroi have superior military force and superior technology right now, rendering us harmless in the short-term, but our tech development and numbers (with the accompanying industrial capacity) will make us a threat in the long-term. Holding us at arm's length doesn't help with the threat though, left to our own devices we'll be a MUCH bigger threat than if they integrate us. If they hold us apart it will only alienate us and make it harder to keep tabs on us, if they go with the heavy-handed overbearing overlord route (which, IIRC would be uncharacteristic) then they lose a lot of our value. The easiest path is short-term genocide, but that's also a serious over-reaction. The best path for them is to integrate us into the Union and let us handle ourselves internally they'll reap the benefits of our technical development at a low cost to themselves (just providing military protection and funding for military projects). We get autonomy to a large degree, they get toys to use for their wars and nominal control.

You make a good case here; however, I simply don't think the Loroi as an empire operate like that. They have a deeply ingrained sense of their racial superiority over everybody else. They probably won't take humans very seriously in the beginning (except from their inherent 'lotai' ability, which will necessitate some sort of control to deny this potentially crucial advantage to the Umiak). They will give us what is needed to make us an useful ally, but not much more, essentially bribing us to stay on their side, while of course hinting at what will happen if we don't. I don't think the Loroi are planning too much ahead, beyond "let's win this bloody war" at the moment, so the future status of 'Humaniti' will be pretty low on their list of items requiring attention.

At the same time, do you really think Terrans - the same Terrans who still in the year 2160 are unwilling to unite under at least *some* form of (con)federal government, say, something along the lines of the European Union - will be eager to join an undemocratic alien empire as a junior member? I very much doubt it. If there is any chance to remain apart while getting protection/some tech transfer, they'll take it.

About genocide - I find it tad disturbing how casually it's talked about on this forum. I know this is fiction, but still - I'd assume all sentient races to have a strong distaste for it due to the universal Golden Rule ("one should not treat others in ways that one would not like to be treated"). If I read the background info right, the Mannadi genocide almost led to a conflict between the Loroi and their allies. The genocide of the Tithric was arguably not as clear cut an event, as the Tithric were effectively siding with the enemy (I'd say it's in some ways comparable to the Allied WW2 firebombings of Japanese/German cities), but it still profoundly damaged Loroi reputation. How on Earth (and beyond) would they justify a massacre of a species that's a) moderately friendly; b) non-threatening; c) not affiliated with the Umiak in any way; d) far away from the battle lines; and d) conspicuously similar to Loroi in appearance? They'd essentially broadcast to the whole galaxy that they're genocidal bitches who will eventually exterminate even their allies if they feel like it. It would probably make their existing allies wonder whether the Umiak aren't the better choice after all. In other words, exactly something they don't need at this moment.

Actually, Terrans should hope this war lasts for a long time - long enough for them to assimilate enough of the Loroi/Historian technology to make themselves militarily significant enough to deter future aggression. Then they'll be in much better position to get a better deal from the Loroi concerning their future.

[Trantor]

if they go with the heavy-handed overbearing overlord route (which, IIRC would be uncharacteristic) then they lose a lot of our value.

Question is, do they think alike? I´m sure they don´t.

The best path for them is to integrate us into the Union and let us handle ourselves internally they'll reap the benefits of our technical development at a low cost to themselves (just providing military protection and funding for military projects)

What makes you certain this will work?
When the german scientists were drafted after WW2 there was nothing they could´ve done about it. THIS will be no different, rather worse, much much worse. After WW2 there was the competition of the systems, so none of the two superpowers could bully around the world as they would have done without the other one. And the germans were able to find their niche in the hole between the two ass cheeks.
Now, after the downfall of the Soviet Union, look around what happened in only two decades.

So tell me only one reason why the Loroi should give a f*ck about our well-being? They just need our engineers. Everything else just below genocide will be ok, even for their allies if their PR-machine works. And that is what they´re going to do, because it´s the cheap way, and because that is how military blockheads think.


From a military point of view, we are nothing more than "bimbos" to them.
Our ONLY current trump-card is the fact that our very existence simply shatters their leadership claim. We should, no, we MUST take advantage of that. Don´t let THEM write the history books, or we´re lost.

For us we can't do anything without building a military force and we've discussed the difficulties with that so the risk of pursuing a violent conflict is very high.

Building up a force doesn´t necessarily mean war. In the beginning it´ll be more like a cold war scenario if we take small step after step, because the elves cannot afford to wipe us out. For now.
No one wants the Loroi to be the after-war bullies, especially not the Historians.

Only if the elves go frenzy there will be war. But in that very moment the Alliance is dead anyway.

Also this "Alliance", which in fact is nothing more than a very cold "community of purpose" won´t last long after the war. In fact it will be dead the very moment the bugs are beaten. You then want to be at the mercy of crazy witches with an entirely destroyed economy? You can´t be serious!

That´s the timeframe we must use - from now to the end of the war.
So no time for cozy-cozy. After the war we would be lost to the bullies.

We get autonomy to a large degree, they get toys to use for their wars and nominal control.

A "large degree of autonomy". Obviously we have different measurement.

If we push for overt independence then we'll be forcing the Loroi's hand as they can't tolerate us as a threat.

You were dismissive about my point that this is a job for our top diplomats. And now you say the very same, only in other words.

Instead our best resolution will be to make ourselves indispensable and attempt to integrate into their society as much as we can to reduce the Otherness if possible.

Wishful thinking it is. There won´t be such a thing.

Once we have minimized the threat we pose we can make in-roads and attempt to influence the Loroi from within

Forget it. That doesn´t work. We are DANGEROUS to them. We already ARE a threat to their fairy tales, to their leadership claim, to their very base of their existence. You completely ignore that.
And you recklessly give away our (not-so bad) position. Appeasement anyone?

I'm personally fine with being the court magician to the Loroi's Queen

That´s a shame.
Where´s your spine?
Where´s your macchiavellian thinking?
Being a traitor like that you´re prone to be killed by your own people, can´t you see it?

[fredgiblet]

At the same time, do you really think Terrans - the same Terrans who still in the year 2160 are unwilling to unite under at least *some* form of (con)federal government, say, something along the lines of the European Union - will be eager to join an undemocratic alien empire as a junior member? I very much doubt it. If there is any chance to remain apart while getting protection/some tech transfer, they'll take it.

Eager? No. We'd rather be on top of course, but we won't be. We may work our way to the top eventually, but in the short and mid-term we're not going to be running the show.

The Loroi aren't going to give us stuff and leave us alone, we pose too much of a long-term threat for them to let us be independent. The whole point of the comic is we're trying to join up with someone and I can't imagine that we don't know we're coming in as a second-class ally, the leaders of the world might be hoping for something ridiculously good, but they presumably know the score and are on-board with it.

About genocide - I find it tad disturbing how casually it's talked about on this forum. I know this is fiction, but still - I'd assume all sentient races to have a strong distaste for it due to the universal Golden Rule ("one should not treat others in ways that one would not like to be treated"). If I read the background info right, the Mannadi genocide almost led to a conflict between the Loroi and their allies. The genocide of the Tithric was arguably not as clear cut an event, as the Tithric were effectively siding with the enemy (I'd say it's in some ways comparable to the Allied WW2 firebombings of Japanese/German cities), but it still profoundly damaged Loroi reputation. How on Earth (and beyond) would they justify a massacre of a species that's a) moderately friendly; b) non-threatening; c) not affiliated with the Umiak in any way; d) far away from the battle lines; and d) conspicuously similar to Loroi in appearance? They'd essentially broadcast to the whole galaxy that they're genocidal bitches who will eventually exterminate even their allies if they feel like it. It would probably make their existing allies wonder whether the Umiak aren't the better choice after all. In other words, exactly something they don't need at this moment.

The only trick is that they claim that we refused to ally and they were simply carrying out their non-neutrality actions. Of course that's small consolation when Mozin is probably already spreading the word about humans.

I can see the Loroi going that route, though only if we force them to, what's more interesting to me is how casual (and frequent) talk of US committing genocide against THEM is. Ignoring the ethical concerns the simple political and logistical concerns of wiping out the Loroi are staggering, yet whenever discussion of the future comes up there's always people saying "The first thing we need to do is plan the overthrow and destruction of the Union". It makes me facepalm every time.

Actually, Terrans should hope this war lasts for a long time - long enough for them to assimilate enough of the Loroi/Historian technology to make themselves militarily significant enough to deter future aggression. Then they'll be in much better position to get a better deal from the Loroi concerning their future.

We won't be allowed to, period. Unless we face a heavy Umiak threat and have the technological capability to hold them off ourselves (we don't and we don't) the Loroi have no reason to allow us any significant military force and every reason not to.

[fredgiblet]

Question is, do they think alike? I´m sure they don´t.

And I disagree.

So tell me only one reason why the Loroi should give a f*ck about our well-being? They just need our engineers. Everything else just below genocide will be ok, even for their allies if their PR-machine works. And that is what they´re going to do, because it´s the cheap way, and because that is how military blockheads think.

They don't need our engineers, they need our society. Our engineers and scientists are no better than theirs, we aren't smarter or better trained than the Loroi. The thing that gives us our tech advantage is our society, if they mess around with that they lose the value we have at no gain to themselves. Going the cheap way gains them nothing and loses everything.

Our ONLY current trump-card is the fact that our very existence simply shatters their leadership claim. We should, no, we MUST take advantage of that. Don´t let THEM write the history books, or we´re lost.

How do you propose we do that? Their leadership claim from the Soia is nothing in the grand scheme, their most important leadership claim is that they've beaten all comers before this point (and presumably after this point). The realization that they too were based off a previous species isn't going to cause their allies to abandon them in droves, in fact I expect that in 10-20 years no one will even care.

Building up a force doesn´t necessarily mean war. In the beginning it´ll be more like a cold war scenario if we take small step after step, because the elves cannot afford to wipe us out. For now.

Yes it does. The Loroi will not give us the option of having an independent military force, it won't happen no matter how much you wave your hands about "top diplomats", it's not going to be allowed. They have no reason to allow us that concession, it gains them nothing now and once we've teched up it makes us a threat. If we push them on that the result will be poor, if we refuse to accept them now on that point they'll roll over us.

There is no time better than the present for wiping us out, they have the best claim, the least outside knowledge and the easiest time of it. At no point in the future will it be easier to justify or carry out genocide against us.

Also this "Alliance", which in fact is nothing more than a very cold "community of purpose" won´t last long after the war. In fact it will be dead the very moment the bugs are beaten. You then want to be at the mercy of crazy witches with an entirely destroyed economy? You can´t be serious!

You assume that they will end the war as Britain, I assume they'll end the war as the USSR (only without shit leadership). Either way they'll end the war with a military that is vastly more powerful than we will be for decades even with Historian help.

You were dismissive about my point that this is a job for our top diplomats. And now you say the very same, only in other words.

Perhaps your point wasn't clear. You seemed to be implying that we would get a ridiculously good deal based off of nothing but the charisma of our diplomats. Was that not what you were saying?

What I'm saying is that we'll earn a place of influence by actually showing value, rather than just being charming.

Wishful thinking it is. There won´t be such a thing.

Assumption. True if people like you are consistently overtly hostile, probably not true otherwise.

Forget it. That doesn´t work. We are DANGEROUS to them. We already ARE a threat to their fairy tales, to their leadership claim, to their very base of their existence. You completely ignore that.

No, I merely recognize that killing us doesn't change that. I don't assume that they are stupid enough to throw us away simply because they're annoyed that we show they aren't as special as they'd like to be. I also don't assume that that will be a major point of contention for a long time, I expect that it will be an annoyance for a few years, then it will be accepted as a fact.

That´s a shame.
Where´s your spine?
Where´s your macchiavellian thinking?
Being a traitor like that you´re prone to be killed by your own people, can´t you see it?

My goal is the survival and advancement of the species. I don't think that war with the Loroi benefits us in a significant way, nor that the risk of carrying out the war is anywhere near reasonable, you have not provided a compelling case to sway me. I expect that when laid out to my own people your arguments will come off as paranoid raving rather than sense, so I'm not worried about them.