fredgiblet wrote:You'll note that they were invaded. Texas was a free country that voluntarily joined the United States, much more similar situation.
While american history is not my strong point. I'm pretty certain that texas was not held at gunpoint when asked to join the US. And i'm most certain they can leave the union anytime they feel like it without the fear of genocide or occupation.
As an American I'm fully aware of the importance of freedom fighters, however I don't see freedom fighters being relevant here. See below. Also I resent the idea that I'm a sniveling coward, I'm a yellow-bellied, lilly-livered, no-good coward. Get it right.
???.... I'm afraid i don't get the reference. Are you telling me that you are of a penguin species i've never heard of.
And i think that freedom fighters are a most important point. They will smile and tell us it's a fair bargain when they are holding us at gunpoint. It's a false choice and while you may think it's swell to be the emperors lapdog any human with a little pride and belief in our ideals will resist this facist regime.
You seem to be assuming a great deal. You and others like you seem to be assuming that the Loroi are going to be omnipresent dictators demanding to control our every move. I think the most important disconnect in these discussions is that I see no such thing. I've stated many times that it would be stupid of the Loroi to be overbearing and I don't think the Loroi are stupid. Can you explain why you think that the Loroi will make significant changes to our culture? Beyond the obvious fact that we've met a powerful alien species, that will cause changes regardless of whether or not we join them. Why do you think it's in their best interests to cripple the very thing that makes us valuable?
Because they are going to weither they want to or not their dominance hinges upon it. Our culture is an affect of our environment and the loroi are going to affect that tremendously depending on their actions. We will be transformed from the people who once said "I wonder what exists out there" to "Why the fuck do you exist out here" if they go with your idea. Curiosity will be replaced with contempt, friendship replaced with hatred such is the nature of an oppressive relationship. Our culture doesn't thrive upon that.
And as you said the loroi have no interest in tampering with our culture and the best way to do that is to mind their own business. That can only be done with our independence as we will not cooperate on your terms.
I don't think the Loroi will want to wipe us out or even fight with us. But I also don't think they will hesitate to if we make them. At present the only chance of them wiping us out is if they feel we might end up under the sway of the Umiak, the danger of the Umiak discovering the lotai and using it against the Loroi is simply too great, with that in hand the tide of war would immediately and irrevocably shift in favor of the Umiak. Other than that I see no reason for them to be hostile for some time.
Thats the point if they don't tolerate our independence (which to you they don't) we will force their hand. Besides it looks like the umiak are already cracking that coconut.
And my argument is based on the aftermath of the conflict. Humanities progress will be hampered by the union because they have no choice.
On the other hand we have the potential to out-pace them by a great deal, in the next couple centuries if we're left alone we will rival or exceed them in power, they are quite comfortable on top and I don't see them taking too well to that. Don't forget that they see themselves as the heirs to the Soia and the rightful rulers of the galaxy, the idea of us over-powering them won't sit well. In the long-term an independent humanity is not only a military threat, but a threat to myth the Loroi have built around themselves, on the other hand if we're part of the Union and nominally under their control then they are still "in charge" while we're free to get as big as we want. The best part is that they'll probably happily do the fighting in any wars, we don't even need to have our own people going out and dying when they're insisting on the right to do it for us.
Again thats the point isn't. We will rival them and even exceed them and they are going to accept that or subjucate us. And them fighting our battles is just an excuse to mancipate us. We can fight our own battles in the future thank you very much we don't need the union for that. If they desire to figth beside us thet great but they will not fight our battles and claim we owe them allegiance.
Considering that the members of the Union are prohibited from having militaries I think think that while genocide would be too far they certainly would have some very vigorous objections to us making warships. Whether or not the Loroi would eventually come into conflict with us if we remained independent is an interestign question, though largely an academic one since we won't BE independent for much longer. I expect that it would largely depend on whether or not they could come to accept that we were likely to out-pace and eventually replace them as the main power in the area. I expect that would be a very difficult pill for them to swallow, but I'm not certain that conflict would be inevitable.
Link please.
lets do a head count: We have besides the loroi the barsam, the neridi, the mannadi,the delrias, the arekka, the niberen, the golim and the pipolsid.
Ok the barsam are devoted to peace. They do not want a warfleet. The neridi are bankers and do not adept enough to need a warfleet. The mannadi, delrias, arekka and niberen are all subjucated they are not allowed anyways. The pipolsid are auqatic scientists not adept enough for war to need a warfleet. And the golims are slaves to the loroi and do not need a fleet.
Really is there any need to prohibit warfleets within the union when everyone who's in it is either a willing slave or a subjucated population?
Now how does humanity fit in to this?
We are not all scientist or peaceful, the vast majority of us are pretty dumb and violent. We are too independent as we are individualists who works best as a team of experts using their specialties in concordance with one another. We do not have a need for the union besides the need that the union have forced upon us. They will have to occupy us in order to control us in order for us to join the union which in all honestly is no different than joining willingly.
Our position is non negoiable. It is our independence of our subjucation.
If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through. General C.H Melchett commander of some unknown british regiment in the western front.