Loroi sexuality

[Victor_D]

The last time somebody tried to leave the US, it ended with their occupation and near-genocide (Sherman's burning of the South)...

True but that was because the south attacked first.

Hahaha, yeah right History is written by the victors.

[Jericho]

The last time somebody tried to leave the US, it ended with their occupation and near-genocide (Sherman's burning of the South)...

True but that was because the south attacked first.

Hahaha, yeah right History is written by the victors.

And you have evidence that contradicts this?

[Victor_D]

Hahaha, yeah right History is written by the victors.

And you have evidence that contradicts this?

It's heavily OT, so here's the short version: Union government refused the secession of the Southern states as illegal, declined to accept a peace treaty offered by the South, wouldn't negotiate with the Confederate government on the status of 'federal property' on the territory of the seceded states, and when the South tried to establish its sovereignty and remove Union military forces occupying portions of its territory, the Union effectively declared war on it. Lincoln wanted war and he got it.

[Jericho]

Hahaha, yeah right History is written by the victors.

And you have evidence that contradicts this?

It's heavily OT, so here's the short version: Union government refused the secession of the Southern states as illegal, declined to accept a peace treaty offered by the South, wouldn't negotiate with the Confederate government on the status of 'federal property' on the territory of the seceded states, and when the South tried to establish its sovereignty and remove Union military forces occupying portions of its territory, the Union effectively declared war on it. Lincoln wanted war and he got it.

Interesting. Sources please? you can pm them if you prefer.

Either way it does actually validates my fears of the loroi union. The south is now a defeated region filled with people screaming "the south will rise again" and racism and anti science and anti central goverment. A pretty fitting analogy for the terrans if fredgiblet have his way.

[Victor_D]

Interesting. Sources please? you can pm them if you prefer.

Plain old Wiki will give you a good picture of the events that led to the war. It's just that many people see the ACW in terms of "evil slaver South attacked the good liberal North for no reason", which is totally false.

Either way it does actually validates my fears of the loroi union. The south is now a defeated region filled with people screaming "the south will rise again" and racism and anti science and anti central goverment. A pretty fitting analogy for the terrans if fredgiblet have his way.

Yup. Joining the Loroi is easy. Unjoining them later might be a bit problematic. They're not the EU which will let you go amicably if you so choose.

[Jericho]

Plain old Wiki will give you a good picture of the events that led to the war. It's just that many people see the ACW in terms of "evil slaver South attacked the good liberal North for no reason", which is totally false.

I never thought the north was that innocent to begin with. Abraham himself said that he waged war primarily to preserve the union, freeing the slaves was just a pr trick.

Yup. Joining the Loroi is easy. Unjoining them later might be a bit problematic. They're not the EU which will let you go amicably if you so choose.

Which is why i advocate joining the alliance not the union.

And don't be so sure about the EU. There are many federalists who desire's nothing more than to create the united states of Europe and they don't care which countries they have to trample upon to do so.

[JQBogus]

Our merchant ships won't be much more useful than our warships. They are probably smaller and almost certainly much slower than the Loroi ships.

From what Arioch has said humans in Outsider might be longer lived than Loroi.

Our merchant ships may be slow, but they're free. No Loroi shipyards needed to produce them. Also, merchant ships generally won't need high accelleration unless they're trying to operate on/near the front lines. I would assume there is plenty of internal shipping needs within Loroi space.

As for humans living longer than the Loroi... is the Loroi figure used in the comparison natural/with medical lifespan, or Life expectancy with a giant war on?

[fredgiblet]

As for humans living longer than the Loroi... is the Loroi figure used in the comparison natural/with medical lifespan, or Life expectancy with a giant war on?

Natural, they don't do heavy medical extensions. Humans do. If the Loroi sought out medical life extensions they would probably out-do us by a wide margin.

[Mayhem]

From what Arioch has said humans in Outsider might be longer lived than Loroi.

Loroi: "potentially living for 400 years or more"
Terran: "current average life expectancy today is 65 years", "I wouldn't be surprised if average life expectancy doubled in the next 50-100 years, and continued to extend much farther than that."
I interpret this to mean something like 150-200 year life expectancy (at time of comic).

So the Loroi still have 2x our life expectancy.

[fredgiblet]

1) They don't know and probably won't believe that this trend will continue. From what I've read, tech growth has slowed down in the early interstellar age for most civilizations. Humans may be a bit more creative by necessity (no Soia-era ruins to rediscover tech from), but the notion that they will out-science everybody in just a century or two will seem ridiculous to Loroi.

They will probably find the idea that we've advanced as quickly as we have ridiculous, but they can verify it and see that it's true. They would be stupid to assume that our tech advance will simply halt when we reach parity.

2) China poses a massive long-term geopolitical threat to the US, even more so than the USSR in its age. It has posed such a threat ever since Deng Xiaoping began modernizing the country in the 1980s. If the US behaved like many on this forum expect the Loroi to behave, it would have launched a preventive nuclear attack against China in the early 1990s to return the country to the stone age. The US had the capability then to burn China to the ground with minimal losses to itself. Did it do that? No. Why not? Because the notion that a country might get relatively stronger in the future isn't a good enough reason to wipe it out.

Degree of difficulty and economic interdependance as well as international relations. A conventional war in China would be a nightmare, a nuclear war would result in the rest of the world turning against us. At the same time our businesses are throwing money at them creating economic dependencies that would be devastating to lose. I have no doubt that there was serious discussions about the China issue in the halls of power here. Chances are good that we are attacking them just as vigorously as they are attacking us in cyber-space, but they have the governmental power to erect the firewall and surpress any reports of success on our end while we don't.

This. From their perspective, humans are not a threat any more than Nigeria is considered a threat (despite the UN projections that put its population at 700+ million people by the end of the century, more than the US and on par with the whole of Europe).

If Nigeria starts building stealth planes and supercarriers you can bet they'll be seen as a threat. Even if just a threat to the hegemony.

While american history is not my strong point. I'm pretty certain that texas was not held at gunpoint when asked to join the US. And i'm most certain they can leave the union anytime they feel like it without the fear of genocide or occupation.

As has been covered they wouldn't be allowed to leave (I'd allow it, but I don't make the rules).

Link please.

"Each member does not have its own military (though each does have its own police & patrol forces), but rather subordinates itself to the Loroi military, which acts as an executive entity."

http://well-of-souls.com/outsider/union_races.html

We are too independent as we are individualists

Most of your point is focused on this so rather than saying basically the same thing over and over I'm just going to respond here.

You, and others, keep saying this, but I don't see it. I see plenty of people saying it, then immediately falling in line when the chips are down. We like to TALK about how independent we are but when it comes time to put up or shut up we grumble a bit then move on with our lives. Otherwise I'd expect riots in the streets at the mere mention of the EU (after all, how DARE the government give over authority to anyone else!) but that's not what I've seen, perhaps our Eurofriends can tell us of the devastation and collapse of individuality that has come about? Or did life go on more or less like it did before? "But" you say "They joined willingly!" and so they did, and guess what? We're going to join the Loroi Union willingly too. We'll ask for independence of course, but we won't get it, and we won't push the point, because our politicians will be too busy trying to secure us survival to worry about independence. There are, no doubt, people who will rage and foam at the mouth at the thought of giving over our independence, but they will be a minority, and a small one at that. The majority of people will be concerned with how this impacts their career, or their vacation plans rather than how it impacts their freedom, just like today.

The Loroi aren't going to force us to have our children grow up separate from their parents, they aren't going to make us submit forms in triplicate and get on a waiting list to have a girlfriend/boyfriend, they aren't going to tell us we have to eat their food or listen to their music or watch their plays, they aren't going to require us to use sign language and never speak unless we have to/distrust the person we're talking to, etc., etc., etc.

The average person probably won't even notice the difference pre- and post-treaty, except that we'll have some space elves hanging around the colleges and tech companies teaching, some bases being built and a TON of new government contracts for production of goods the Loroi can use.

Our position is non negoiable. It is our independence of our subjucation.

Not only are you welcome to that opinion, you will probably still be welcome to it once the treaty is signed.

[fredgiblet]

So the Loroi still have 2x our life expectancy.

You are correct, I mis-remembered. Of course that's NOW, we're still gaining, hopefully Alex and Fireblade will have a full life to live together

[Turrosh Mak]

The south is now a defeated region filled with people screaming "the south will rise again" and racism and anti science and anti central goverment. A pretty fitting analogy for the terrans if fredgiblet have his way.

I'm sorry, but this a grotesque distortion. Is this what they teach you in Sweden? Where did you get this idea from? Family Guy?

[fredgiblet]

I'm sorry, but this a grotesque distortion. Is this what they teach you in Sweden? Where did you get this idea from? Family Guy?

I live in America, I get that idea from the news.

I know not everyone down there is like that, but the ones who make the news are.

[Turrosh Mak]

I live in America, I get that idea from the news.

I know not everyone down there is like that, but the ones who make the news are.

Wow, is that really what you want to hang your hat on? The news? Based on that criteria the greater New York area is filled with entitled sociopaths who push people in front of subways and shoot up 1st grade classrooms.

This thread has gone way off topic, I believe it should be split, so those of us who want to talk about Loroi erogenous zones can do so in peace.

[Trantor]

There are, no doubt, people who will rage and foam at the mouth at the thought of giving over our independence, but they will be a minority, and a small one at that.

Huh. Wouldn´t bet on that one.

The majority of people will be concerned with how this impacts their career, or their vacation plans rather than how it impacts their freedom, just like today.

From "eurofriends´" view that´s the typical morally bankrupt, egoistic US-american attitude. "Solidarity? Never heard of, hey, what´s in for me, pal?"
If the majority of people is like that in 2160, then we do not deserve any better. Then go ahead, traitor.
...

You make one big mistake. You draw a line from the beginning of human industrialization to space-faring, and you think this line will continue.
But you´re WRONG.
This line will end, as history does, if those thinking alike you hand us over to the space-witches.
As i said before, there are more players at the table, there is a small gap that we can use, and we shouldn´t give up on that one.
Because those oh-so lovely Bishōjos are military blockheads, and they will do us absolutely no good.
Me, i will rather die in my boots than living on my knees.

[pinheadh78]

Can we just close this thread? Seems to have gone way off topic and isn't fun to read anymore.

[fredgiblet]

If Arioch hasn't closed/split it by the time I get home I'll split it

[Voitan]

Is it even a sure thing that the Terrans will be forced into the Loroi Union? Or just be military allies?

It's been so long since I first read Outsider, I'm not quite so certain how this would play out.

[Mayhem]

Then go ahead, traitor.

It bit strong given we have already had one warning about this thread.
I also find such passionate disputation can lead one to misunderstanding your opponents point and trap you in our own even if it turns out to be incomplete or fallacious.

First let us review the 2 main forms of alliance that might be available:

1. Independent Ally
Not a formal member of the Union, but unable to prove a meaningful military force of our own, we would be dependant on the Loroi military forces garrisoned in our space and on our planets.

Ruled by our own civilian governments but heavily subject to the influence of the superpower (Loroi). Our own influence in the Loroi Union is limited to our diplomats' powers of persuasion.

In future we would be officially allowed to build our own meaningful military forces but this would likely be opposed by the twin effect of Loroi political pressure and our own economic and political considerations.

Possible comparisons: The USA as the Loroi and South Korea or Japan as the Terrans.

2. Union Membership
Militarily dependant on the Loroi military forces garrisoned in our space and on our planets;
our own forces would only be used for police & patrol actions (which is all they are currently used for).

The union being federal in nature, most local matters will ruled by our own civilian governments subject to federal authority. Our legislative Assembly delegates - being proportionate in number to population - may well automatically become the second largest block after the Loroi themselves. While the Loroi no doubt hold a majority from a species perspective, the ability to negotiate with and influence individual Loroi factions will result in at least some say in the policies and legislation of the Union.

In future it would be next to impossible to break from the Union and have our own independent government and military, but we may be able to have considerable influence in the union itself.

Possible comparisons: The EU as the Loroi and, as the Terrans, at first Portugal or Greece then later the UK or Germany depending on how the Terrans want to play it.

Short Term:
There is not much difference for most civilians.

Long Term:
Very different but by then the choice has long been made.

Frankly I don't see it being immediately obvious that one choice is definitely better than the other for the Terrans.

Clearly there are people who will greatly prefer 1 choice to the other (e.g. Trantor & fredgiblet? ) but I very much doubt either faction will dominate the negotiations.

---

This line will end, as history does, if those thinking alike you hand us over to the space-witches.
As i said before, there are more players at the table, there is a small gap that we can use, and we shouldn´t give up on that one.
Because those oh-so lovely Bishōjos are military blockheads, and they will do us absolutely no good.
Me, i will rather die in my boots than living on my knees.

The question is - who would be killing you - the Loroi or your fellow Terrans?

Most of us are living on our knees in one way or another, it is just the cushion is soft enough and that we are so used to it that we don't notice or think about it, distracted as we are by our day-to-day lives.

You seem to presume that
1. the Terran negotiators would be approached by the Devil with a deal for you Machiavellian Historian A.I.s
and
2. that we would chose Skynet over the hot blue Amazonian space elf Nazis

I don't have that much faith in Humanity let alone our politicians.

[Arioch]

This thread has gone way off topic, I believe it should be split, so those of us who want to talk about Loroi erogenous zones can do so in peace.

The digression about alliances came pretty naturally out of the discussion of "would Loroi want to have sex with us" so it's hard to cleanly split. I'll just close the thread, because I think most of the bases have been covered both in the sexuality discussion and in the related digression, and it's clearly becoming toxic. If folks want to continue some of these topics, they can create new threads. But I must insist upon a greater effort in keeping the discussions civil.