Another batch of questions

[Arioch]

At this point I'm expecting that HL3 will launch on Linux, gaben is pushing for Linux hard so I think it would be a brilliant move for that goal to launch what will probably be one of the most anticipated releases ever on the platform they want people to use first. Of course it means they won't get money as fast, but they aren't hurting for cash anyway.

It won't be "brilliant" if it causes the game to fail financially. Traditionally, the Linux market has been even worse for games than the Mac OS market (if you can imagine such a thing). Has the availability of Steam on Linux really moved the needle in terms of the financial viability of Linux games? If it has, I haven't heard about it.

[Absalom]

At this point I'm expecting that HL3 will launch on Linux, gaben is pushing for Linux hard so I think it would be a brilliant move for that goal to launch what will probably be one of the most anticipated releases ever on the platform they want people to use first. Of course it means they won't get money as fast, but they aren't hurting for cash anyway.

It won't be "brilliant" if it causes the game to fail financially. Traditionally, the Linux market has been even worse for games than the Mac OS market (if you can imagine such a thing). Has the availability of Steam on Linux really moved the needle in terms of the financial viability of Linux games? If it has, I haven't heard about it.

Steam was only recently released for Linux, so I doubt that it's had time. There's also the SteamBox initiative, which might be what they're REALLY thinking about. Also, it seems like the game developer community had a collective stroke over Windows 8's restrictions (and especially the implications of where Microsoft is planning to go in the future), which implies that the "Windows First and Only" situation is likely to start dying... and as that dies, it'll inevitably mean that games will become more available on other platforms.

Incidentally, I'm on the mailinglist for the SDL library... and a few months ago (it's speculated to be related to Steam on Linux) Valve hired the project's lead developer. For those that don't know, SDL is a library developed ~ 2000 to act as an OS abstraction layer for games to make them easier to port, and SDL2 is expected to be officially released this month.

[Arioch]

Also, it seems like the game developer community had a collective stroke over Windows 8's restrictions (and especially the implications of where Microsoft is planning to go in the future), which implies that the "Windows First and Only" situation is likely to start dying... and as that dies, it'll inevitably mean that games will become more available on other platforms.

Windows 7 is still very popular and function, and there's no need to upgrade to 8 (just as there was no need to upgrade from XP to Vista), so I'm not too worried about Microsoft's nonsense. Windows can't start "dying" until there's a viable alternative, and the currently available Linux installations are simply not something the average gamer is capable of making work.

Incidentally, I'm on the mailinglist for the SDL library... and a few months ago (it's speculated to be related to Steam on Linux) Valve hired the project's lead developer. For those that don't know, SDL is a library developed ~ 2000 to act as an OS abstraction layer for games to make them easier to port, and SDL2 is expected to be officially released this month.

Games are almost always pushing the limits of hardware, so it's hard to imagine a situation any time soon in which emulation or Java-like abstraction layers will be acceptable performance-wise.

[GeoModder]

And is there an ETA for the next page?

After the Half Life 3 release.

No! After CiV's Brave New World expansion release!

[Charlie]

Also, it seems like the game developer community had a collective stroke over Windows 8's restrictions (and especially the implications of where Microsoft is planning to go in the future), which implies that the "Windows First and Only" situation is likely to start dying... and as that dies, it'll inevitably mean that games will become more available on other platforms.

Windows 7 is still very popular and function, and there's no need to upgrade to 8 (just as there was no need to upgrade from XP to Vista), so I'm not too worried about Microsoft's nonsense. Windows can't start "dying" until there's a viable alternative, and the currently available Linux installations are simply not something the average gamer is capable of making work.

While I cannot speak for more advanced countries, here in South Africa Windows XP is still the standard OS in basic entry level computers as it is far less resource intensive than 7. After speaking to people more informed than myself with regards to Windows 8, they assured me it was Windows first real foray into the touch screen portable computers market. Windows 8 it seems suffers quite badly when compared to Windows 7 on desktops.

[Arioch]

I still have Windows XP on my desktop system. I haven't upgraded because Windows 7 would require a complete from-scratch re-install and some hardware upgrades; I'm waiting to get a new computer. I have a borrowed laptop that I've been playing games on that's Windows 8, and I don't like it, but it works. Windows 8 essentially tries to turn your PC into a smartphone, which is pretty stupid. With a little tweaking, you can bypass the new UI and get back to a Windows 7 style interface. The whole point of Windows 8 is its touchscreen capability, so unless your computer is a tablet or something similar, Windows 8 has nothing to offer you. I don't get why they try to sell it on desktops. (Well, okay, I know why they're selling it: because they like money. But I don't get why they think anyone would want to buy it.)

[Suederwind]

Had Windows XP on my desktop for a long time and I am glad that I switched to Windows 7 a while ago. Much more stable, a lot of new features that are quite useful and more important, there are still security updates and patches for it. Still feel no need to upgrade to Nr. 8 and I have no clue why anyone thought that a computer/laptop without a touchscreen or an onscreen digitizer should run that OS in the first place. The user interface is so confusing and annoying that I have my doubts that anyone in that company really tried what they were selling before shipping it.
What I don´t get, is that crappy Windows RT version. Who would buy something like this?

[fredgiblet]

It won't be "brilliant" if it causes the game to fail financially. Traditionally, the Linux market has been even worse for games than the Mac OS market (if you can imagine such a thing). Has the availability of Steam on Linux really moved the needle in terms of the financial viability of Linux games? If it has, I haven't heard about it.

It hasn't yet, but Valve is making money hand over fist anyway so they can launch on Linux without worrying about cash. Also it'll doubtless still make it's way to Windows, I'm just saying it will probably be released for Linux first, Gabe has taken a stand against Windows (probably because the Windows Store threatens their largest revenue stream) so it seems likely that they'd sacrifice some short-term cash to push people in the direction they want.

Also, it seems like the game developer community had a collective stroke over Windows 8's restrictions (and especially the implications of where Microsoft is planning to go in the future), which implies that the "Windows First and Only" situation is likely to start dying... and as that dies, it'll inevitably mean that games will become more available on other platforms.

Some might have. On the other hand I spoke with Feargus from Obsidian in the comments to the Project Eternity Kickstarter, there was some people talking about how Windows 8 was horrid and no one could possibly use it in a productive environment, Feargus said they had a bunch of people using W8 with no trouble. I expect that, just like the issues, the backlash against W8 is overblown.

[fredgiblet]

While I cannot speak for more advanced countries, here in South Africa Windows XP is still the standard OS in basic entry level computers as it is far less resource intensive than 7. After speaking to people more informed than myself with regards to Windows 8, they assured me it was Windows first real foray into the touch screen portable computers market. Windows 8 it seems suffers quite badly when compared to Windows 7 on desktops.

Posting from a Windows 8 machine. It's virtually identical in functionality to Windows 7. The ONLY obvious concession to touch is the Start Screen, which people LOVE to bitch about, but I've found to functionally comparable to the old Start Menu. In fact for people who've been using the Windows 95 method of picking through the entire menu looking for what you want the switch is actually an improvement, because it pushes you towards using search on the menu, instead of digging through 3 layers of folders you just type the first 2 or 3 letters and what you want is right there.

Also Windows 8 is (slightly) less resource-intensive than Windows 7.

The whole point of Windows 8 is its touchscreen capability, so unless your computer is a tablet or something similar, Windows 8 has nothing to offer you.

It's got a lot of under the hood improvements, like the improvements to the Task Manager and improved multi-monitor support (though I only have one so I'm not certain what the improvements there are). But if you're happy with 7 there's no real compelling reason to upgrade.

What I don´t get, is that crappy Windows RT version. Who would buy something like this?

The same people who would buy an iPad or a Android tablet. Those face the same (or worse) restrictions as Windows RT, the only real difference in functionality is that Windows RT doesn't have the same number of apps in their marketplace.

Now I have spoken to people who are trying to use a Surface RT as a desktop replacement, that's...special, but as a tablet it does what most people want out of a tablet, plays Youtube and Angry Birds while you're on the toilet.

[Arioch]

It hasn't yet, but Valve is making money hand over fist anyway so they can launch on Linux without worrying about cash. Also it'll doubtless still make it's way to Windows, I'm just saying it will probably be released for Linux first, Gabe has taken a stand against Windows (probably because the Windows Store threatens their largest revenue stream) so it seems likely that they'd sacrifice some short-term cash to push people in the direction they want.

A successful company that stops caring about revenues won't be successful for very long. Releasing as a Linux exclusive will lose them money, and I can't imagine many people changing their operating systems just to play Half-Life 3.

It's dangerous to risk a game's critical release market by making it a platform exclusive; if people don't move, you may never get that sale back, even if you eventually port to their platform. I've still never bought any of the Halo titles, because by the time the Windows version came out, I'd lost interest. Luckily for MS, many other people did make the move to Xbox, but that's just buying a cheap console, not changing your PC's operating system. Also that was a time when platform exclusives were the norm, but these days I think people are less accepting of them. Maybe Valve could get away with an exclusive for their new console... but if they do, I won't be playing it.

[fredgiblet]

Well it's not really an either/or, you can have both Linux and Windows installed at the same time, and since Linux is free the cost of installing it is just time and hard drive space. I also don't expect exclusivity to last long if I'm right, maybe a month or so tops, definitely not the years it took Halo to transfer over. We'll see sooner or later either way, at minimum I expect a simultaneous launch.

[Arioch]

Well it's not really an either/or, you can have both Linux and Windows installed at the same time, and since Linux is free the cost of installing it is just time and hard drive space.

I don't think the vast majority of mainstream PC users are technically sophisticated enough to use Linux at all, much less set up a dual boot system. That's what I mean when I say that I don't think Linux is currently a real alternative to Windows as a mainstream gaming desktop OS. Is doesn't do any good to "push" people somewhere they have no capability of going.

Everybody says they hate Microsoft, but nobody is offering a real alternative. In order to replace Windows, a major player needs to step up and develop a usable alternative; at the minimum this would be a full-featured mainstream front-end to Linux (Ubuntu doesn't cut it, sorry). I was kind of hoping that's what IBM was going to do a few years ago when it made some noise about a new Linux strategy, but that turned out to be something else. Google is perhaps in a position to do it, but their attempts to turn Android or Chrome into a desktop OS don't seem compelling; I have no desire to turn my PC into either a smartphone or a browser. Mac OS is not much of an alternative, as Apple is every bit as evil as Microsoft, and twice as proprietary.

[Absalom]

Incidentally, I'm on the mailinglist for the SDL library... and a few months ago (it's speculated to be related to Steam on Linux) Valve hired the project's lead developer. For those that don't know, SDL is a library developed ~ 2000 to act as an OS abstraction layer for games to make them easier to port, and SDL2 is expected to be officially released this month.

Games are almost always pushing the limits of hardware, so it's hard to imagine a situation any time soon in which emulation or Java-like abstraction layers will be acceptable performance-wise.

SDL is an abstraction for OS apis (e.g. dynamic library loading and window creation), the only graphics that it directly provides are either for low-end games (e.g. tile-based ones) or related to the initial setup steps (e.g. getting an OpenGL context and initializing it). Emulation is basically non-existent, and abstraction is very thin and focused.

Everybody says they hate Microsoft, but nobody is offering a real alternative. In order to replace Windows, a major player needs to step up and develop a usable alternative; at the minimum this would be a full-featured mainstream front-end to Linux (Ubuntu doesn't cut it, sorry). I was kind of hoping that's what IBM was going to do a few years ago when it made some noise about a new Linux strategy, but that turned out to be something else. Google is perhaps in a position to do it, but their attempts to turn Android or Chrome into a desktop OS don't seem compelling; I have no desire to turn my PC into either a smartphone or a browser. Mac OS is not much of an alternative, as Apple is every bit as evil as Microsoft, and twice as proprietary.

While I could see such a system being built on Linux, I think that it'd have to start with a massive purge of legacy capabilities (e.g. POSIX focus, LSB), and an upgrade to "neo-unix" (e.g. some of the stuff from Plan9, Linux's FUSE, fat binary support, preferably some sort of generalized makefile equivalent that's used by the "standard installer"). Something like X12 would be important too (not that there IS such a thing as X12).

[Karst45]

I I don't get why they try to sell it on desktops. (Well, okay, I know why they're selling it: because they like money. But I don't get why they think anyone would want to buy it.)

Because people are stupid. and want the latest newest thing. Even if they dont know how to use it. Shinning babbles are nice! But for a touch screen coupled with games it could be nice i can see RTS being play like your on a tactical map.

But most desktop dont have touch screen and dont need one ether.

[fredgiblet]

Because people are stupid. and want the latest newest thing. Even if they dont know how to use it.

Except Windows 8 is selling pretty poorly. People like new stuff, but they don't like it when you move their cheese. The fact of the matter is that most people don't want to learn a new interface, hell, there's a lot of people who aren't capable of learning a new interface (I've taught my grandma how to read her e-mail 5 or 6 times).

[Arioch]

Except Windows 8 is selling pretty poorly. People like new stuff, but they don't like it when you move their cheese. The fact of the matter is that most people don't want to learn a new interface, hell, there's a lot of people who aren't capable of learning a new interface (I've taught my grandma how to read her e-mail 5 or 6 times).

Case in point: the reason I temporarily have a Windows 8 laptop is because my father (whose current system is also still running XP) couldn't figure out how to use it.

A lot of PC sellers still offer Windows 7 (often as a primary choice) on their PC's, but unfortunately many of the lower-end models offer only Windows 8. The only reason my father got a computer with Windows 8 is because he didn't have a choice.

[Mikk]

Incidentally, I'm on the mailinglist for the SDL library... and a few months ago (it's speculated to be related to Steam on Linux) Valve hired the project's lead developer. For those that don't know, SDL is a library developed ~ 2000 to act as an OS abstraction layer for games to make them easier to port, and SDL2 is expected to be officially released this month.

Games are almost always pushing the limits of hardware, so it's hard to imagine a situation any time soon in which emulation or Java-like abstraction layers will be acceptable performance-wise.

I'm no software guru, but that comparison seems quite out of place. SDL is a low level hardware access library, while there is nothing low level about Java. The "abstraction" in either case is quite different in nature. The buggy devil is in the details here

Now if I could get on with learning Java for Dalvik, I could get on with conquering Android, for glory and honor! Oh wait, software isn't outer space. Nevermind

EDIT:
Now the remaining question is wether we can port Windows 9, MacOS11 and GNU Hurd to Loroi hardware.